Should Mark Brunell have gone to the Pro Bowl over Michael Vick?

[tuna_h8r]

The last three games of the season:

Brunell: 413 yards, 7 TDs, 2 INTs

Vick: 398 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs

If Vick was healthier at the end of the year there is no excuse for having inferior passing stats across the board, is there? I suppose Vick rushing for for 71 more yards than Brunell (and no TDs) over those games counts for something, but not a whole lot in my opinion. Not if you are going to blast Brunell for limited production while at the same time praising Vick.

looking at their teams overall performances, Brunell also had more chances to do things with his offense, consider our Defense kept giving him the ball back.

What did Vick get from his defense? what did he get from his offensive line?

i'd say vick overcame not only the teams they were playing, but poor performances by his own teammates to come up with some of his numbers.

also note, that whenever they run up against a defense that can play the run with just 7 (like carolina and TB) they lose almost every time. because the falcon offense, the line and the RBs, are softer than most, and a good front will whip them on almost every play.

[ScottnSharrer]

597 yards and 6 TDs. kind of evens them up, doesn't it?

No not really, Vick rushed for 480 yds more, Brunnell threw for 648 yds more then Vick. Not even. At least not in the math I was taught.

[Jumbo]

For the record...Scamology has the luxury of reading only for awhile, and the opportunity to reconsider the frequent insults in his responses.

[Inxsive]

you can lay that on Vick if you want to, but you're wrong. he was running for his life most of the year beause their line is horrible. the highlight reels he winds up on are scrambles he has to make because the line couldn't protect.

Other than rushing yards what do you think he is better at?

[ScottnSharrer]

looking at their teams overall performances, Brunell also had more chances to do things with his offense, consider our Defense kept giving him the ball back.

What did Vick get from his defense? what did he get from his offensive line?

i'd say vick overcame not only the teams they were playing, but poor performances by his own teammates to come up with some of his numbers.

also note, that whenever they run up against a defense that can play the run with just 7 (like carolina and TB) they lose almost every time. because the falcon offense, the line and the RBs, are softer than most, and a good front will whip them on almost every play.

Your loyalty to the Skins is now in doubt

[tuna_h8r]

Exciting is irelivant and points 2 and 3 are meaningless as well considering the when probowl voting ends.

exciting is totally relevant for the probowl.

why is blitzing not allowed? the probowl is a popularity contest and a scoring showcase. it's barely NFL football. i can't stand to watch more than 5 minutes typically, because it's so neutered it's really not compelling to me at all. the local HS kids play harder.

[tuna_h8r]

Your loyalty to the Skins is now in doubt

hahahaha.

see, unlike a lot of people on this board, i don't get my vick info from espn. i actually watch the games. Sunday ticket + TiVo = why my wife almost leaves me every fall. first it's the skins game, and then back to the DVR for the falcons so i can keep up with the losers at the office.

i'll never be a fan of anyone but the skins, but i can tell you that ever since vick has been here, the o-line has been a bigger problem than a lack of WRs here in this town- regardless of what you see on TV.

[ScottnSharrer]

exciting is totally relevant for the probowl.

why is blitzing not allowed? the probowl is a popularity contest and a scoring showcase. it's barely NFL football. i can't stand to watch more than 5 minutes typically, because it's so neutered it's really not compelling to me at all. the local HS kids play harder.

1) exciting is only relevant to the younger generation (no offense meant)

2) blitzing is not allowed because it is a "showcase" and they don't want to chance career ending injuries.

3) if you can't stand to watch it, why would you talk about it and defend someone who was voted in?

4) The point of the Probowl is to have the best positional players for each conference compete against the other conference. Not the best showboaters. If you are defending Vick being in the probowl for what he has done, then Brandon Loyd (who I feel is a really good WR) should have made the probowl the last 2 years based off his 1 handed catches.

[ScottnSharrer]

hahahaha.

see, unlike a lot of people on this board, i don't get my vick info from espn. i actually watch the games. Sunday ticket + TiVo = why my wife almost leaves me every fall. first it's the skins game, and then back to the DVR for the falcons so i can keep up with the losers at the office.

i'll never be a fan of anyone but the skins, but i can tell you that ever since vick has been here, the o-line has been a bigger problem than a lack of WRs here in this town- regardless of what you see on TV.

Your statements show you are more concerned with players who showboat exceptional athletisism to make highlight reels then players who win games and make the playoffs.

[tuna_h8r]

Other than rushing yards what do you think he is better at?

maybe, just maybe touch on the deep pass. but that's it.

anyone that says vick is an accurate passer, knowledgable about opposing defenses, or even his own offense is clearly on drugs.

he's still work-in-progress, and i've had this argument before with philly fans, he's not far behind where mcnabb was at the same point in mcnabbs career. but he's got to improve by a lot this season to keep that comparison going, mcnabb was in the NFC championship game at the same point as this upcoming season for vick

[tuna_h8r]

Your statements show you are more concerned with players who showboat exceptional athletisism to make highlight reels then players who win games and make the playoffs.

see, the game for the best team is the SUPERBOWL. the game for the individual players is the PROBOWL.

which one would you like to discuss?

And, FWIW Brunell can't touch Vick's career winning percentage.

[ScottnSharrer]

see, the game for the best team is the SUPERBOWL. the game for the individual players is the PROBOWL.

which one would you like to discuss?

And, FWIW Brunell can't touch Vick's career winning percentage.

and Vick can't touch Brunnell's Post Season record. What is your point? Stats only should get you voted in, not your footwork.

[Inxsive]

exciting is totally relevant for the probowl.

why is blitzing not allowed? the probowl is a popularity contest and a scoring showcase. it's barely NFL football. i can't stand to watch more than 5 minutes typically, because it's so neutered it's really not compelling to me at all. the local HS kids play harder.

LOL, Yes the game is lame but the criteria doesn't including exciting. You want exciting, put a stripper in at QB.(thats if Minn. will trade you one). You mention scoring showcase, you think Vick scores alot? I think this post of yours is very telling, I think most people think the top 3 QBs should be at the Probowl based on their play that season, you seem to want the 3 most exciting. Those don't always overlap. This isn't the slam dunk contest!

[tuna_h8r]

And this notion about Vicks record is ridiculous. His record as a starter is good b/c he has always had a QB's best friends. A good defense and a running game. This year the d struggled and he goes 8-8.

not to pick nits, but vick was 8-7 this year. schaub took the loss to the pats.

and yes, their defense had been decent the last couple years he was healthy, that's how they could make a run into the chamionship game without much more than a running game (one that vick accounts for roughly 35% of over those 2 playoff years.)

[Inxsive]

maybe, just maybe touch on the deep pass. but that's it.

anyone that says vick is an accurate passer, knowledgable about opposing defenses, or even his own offense is clearly on drugs.

he's still work-in-progress, and i've had this argument before with philly fans, he's not far behind where mcnabb was at the same point in mcnabbs career. but he's got to improve by a lot this season to keep that comparison going, mcnabb was in the NFC championship game at the same point as this upcoming season for vick

You do know Vick only had 3 passes over 40 yards last year, Brunell 9.

(Oh, one note, if you go to NFL.com stats Vick doesn't show up on QB stats at first, THE PLAYOFF STATS ARE THE DEFAULT!)

[rockANDallstar]

Hell yes he should have gone instead of Vick, his stats were better from top to bottom. Screw the Pro Bowl, it's a popularity contest.

[ScottnSharrer]

not to pick nits, but vick was 8-7 this year. schaub took the loss to the pats.

and yes, their defense had been decent the last couple years he was healthy, that's how they could make a run into the chamionship game without much more than a running game (one that vick accounts for roughly 35% of over those 2 playoff years.)

provide a link showing Vick's and Brunell's career winning %'s. Brunell has been around 13 seasons, and had some really good years in JAX.

[SKINZFAN4EVER]

Vick is the most overrated player in football. He's erratic and fragile, and he spends more time defending himself and making pronouncements that he does actually winning games.

Mark is a team guy who plays hard and doesn't make stupid mistakes.[/quote

This just goes to show that the PROBOWL is nothing mote then a popularity contest. VICK Is whack; was the new deal when he came in but NOT a commodity for the Falcons. Brunell has his best year as a pro '05 & didnt even make alternate(I think because of his mediocre playoff post injury play) :helmet: :point2sky :logo: :point2sky :notworthy

[tuna_h8r]

LOL, Yes the game is lame but the criteria doesn't including exciting. You want exciting, put a stripper in at QB.(thats if Minn. will trade you one). You mention scoring showcase, you think Vick scores alot? I think this post of yours is very telling, I think most people think the top 3 QBs should be at the Probowl based on their play that season, you seem to want the 3 most exciting. Those don't always overlap. This isn't the slam dunk contest!

and Vick can't touch Brunnell's Post Season record. What is your point? Stats only should get you voted in, not your footwork.

compare these guys to the AFC from last year. manning, palmer, roethlisberger, brady and plummer all smoked the lot of 'em. and you think brunell really belonged there?

I guess my point is that neither brunell or vick played at a clearly probowl level, so who cares. but to tear down vick because he wa the best of the worst, so-to-speak, is silly.

i don't think MB can take it as a snub that he was left off, as say, Marcus Washington should (he should have been their over Brooking at a minimum)

also, were it the other way around, i don't think Vick could have said he was snubbed.

and i also think you could say if they were both left out for Bledsoe, it wouldn't be a huge problem to make that argument either. Bledose threw for over 3600 yards and had 23 TDs. His INTs were really high for the probowl, but that only serves to underline that he shouldn't feel snubbed either for not being chosen.

bottom line is, there was only one PB-level performance at QB in the NFC this year. After Hasselbeck, nobody else really deserved it.

[tuna_h8r]

You do know Vick only had 3 passes over 40 yards last year, Brunell 9.

(Oh, one note, if you go to NFL.com stats Vick doesn't show up on QB stats at first, THE PLAYOFF STATS ARE THE DEFAULT!)

Santana Moss didn't play on the falcons, and i don't think a 78 yard screen play counts as deep ball touch. :applause:

[Inxsive]

Santana Moss didn't play on the falcons, and i don't think a 78 yard screen play counts as deep ball touch. :applause:

LOL, so where is you proof of deep ball touch. If he had that maybe he would completed more than 3 PASSES over 40 yards. He has a strong arm but he doesn't complete many long passes. You're still stuck on potential. You seem desperate. You state some fact and then when others on this board call you out and show stats that dispute it, you try and change the original thought. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.:doh:

[terpfan]

Holy crap how is this 9 pages allready...Anyway just look at the numbers.

Brunell

Passing yards: 3050

Passing TDs: 23

Intereceptions: 10

Fumbles Lost: 2

QB Rating: 85.9

Rushing yards: 111

Rushing TDs: 0

Total Yards: 3161

Total TDs: 23

Total Turnovers: 12

Vick

Passing yards: 2412

Passing TDs: 15

Intereceptions: 13

Fumbles Lost: 2

QB Rating: 73.1

Rushing yards: 597

Rushing TDs: 6

Total Yards: 3009

Total TDs: 21

Total Turnovers: 15

[CPstretch]

vick made it because of his name, much like trotter every year

[jaderock]

Without a doubt Brunell was a Pro Bowl Player last year. Whether he should've been there is honestly debatable. Vick went strcitly because of his athletic abilities in that he is a "gamebreaker" and he's exciting to watch - stat wise he wasn't even close to probowl consideration. Brunell on the other hand was a "consistent" player who put up numbers only 2-3 other QBs beat in the ratings.

[Inxsive]

compare these guys to the AFC from last year. manning, palmer, roethlisberger, brady and plummer all smoked the lot of 'em. and you think brunell really belonged there?

I guess my point is that neither brunell or vick played at a clearly probowl level, so who cares. but to tear down vick because he wa the best of the worst, so-to-speak, is silly.

and i also think you could say if they were both left out for Bledsoe, it wouldn't be a huge problem to make that argument either. Bledose threw for over 3600 yards and had 23 TDs. His INTs were really high for the probowl, but that only serves to underline that he shouldn't feel snubbed either for not being chosen.

bottom line is, there was only one PB-level performance at QB in the NFC this year. After Hasselbeck, nobody else really deserved it.

Your trying to make this more complicated than it has to be, Top 3 QB's in the conference go to the Probowl. Vick was not top 3 in the NFC. The AFC QB's are irrelevent. The biggest thing to take away from this thread is that Vick didn't deserve to be there. Multiple QBs were better than him. If Brunell had missed it to one of those other QB there isn't much of a discussion but because Vick was so far bellow the 3rd best in the NFC it is an issue. Vick did play about the level you'd expect in the probowl considering his performance during the year;

4 of 12- 69 yards

1 TD

1 INT

sacked twice

fumbled but didn't lose it

Several of his incompletion were to Satana Moss so having him to throw to didn't help much. He also had pro bowl players all around him and it didn't help him improve on everything we have said about him.