CanadaRam Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 As I sit here in my american (st. louis rams) t-shirt, typing on my american made computer, a mere 50 miles from the US border; A border which I frequently cross for pleasure, I have read this thread with great interest. I am very familiar with this poll. I didn't find the results too surprising. Not because I feel the US deserved to suffer this devastation, but merely because those who were responsible for the attacks said we did this because of US mideast policies. So, knowing that, I would interpret "partial responsibilty" in that manner. To say the US is soley responsible for the attacks is just plain stupid. Some of the posters made reference to rape comparisons. Saying that this line of thinking is like people claiming a woman deserved to be raped because of how she dresses or acts. While I understand where these posters are coming from. I guess I don't agree with their position. If the question was phrased, "Do you feel the US got what they deserved?" and 60% of Canadians agreed, then I believe the rape metaphor would be valid. I can say with confidence, that no sane Canadian would answer affirmative to that question. With regards to anti american sentiment, I would say that there has been a slight growth in Canada during the last year. For example, after the friendly fire deaths of four of our soldiers in the Afghan theatre, fans in Detroit booed our national anthem prior to a raptors/pistons playoff game. The same thing happened in NY before a leafs/islanders game. THe act of idiot fans for sure, but it happened at a sensitive time for us. Similarly, US tariffs on our softwood lumber have cost a some jobs up here. THat has been a big story in the media as well. I'm not saying that the US was wrong for doing this, I'm just trying to point out why SOME canadians may have negative feelings toward the current US government (not its' citizens). I truly hope that I do not offend anyone with this post as I am grateful to have the US as our neighbours. What the hell would I do with out the NFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 My parents were Canadian, and long ago as a child, I spent my summers in Canada. It amazed me that there was (and still is) a slight undercurrent of anti-american sentiment. My relatives continually attacked me about the US' envolvement in Vietnam as well as an assortment of minor issues ranging from language to the metric system. Although surprised then, I am not now. Canada resents being thought of as the 51st state and would like acknowledgement of its culture and contributions. This stance is a perfectly resonable. If roles were reversed, I would expect that most on this board, including myself, would share their sentiment. It must be tough to have a neighbor who has tremendous influence on your economic health as well as the military capability to conquer you in a day. Noone likes to have their fate in the hands of another...regardless of their benevolent nature. Most Americans are unaware of the the closet bias of Canadians, and I prefer to keep it that way. It is a minor and silly issue, because when it really counts, Canadians are our brothers and will be there for us. Don't let stupid polls, petty politics, jealousies, and chestbeating negatively influence your opinion on our northern friends. They are part of our family in the western hemisphere, and I'm glad we are neighbors. Die Hard: I believe Orangeskin was just kidding. Cut him some slack. Yomar: Great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 I would have to agree with ScottB in that although Canadians harbor this closet bias or inferiority complex, whichever, that they would still stand side by side during times of strife. That much I am certain. Some of the other posters here have shocked me. Espcially posters who feel that the US brought this on themselves. This is not only ignorant, but downright moronic. I hate to have to share our great country with them. They don't deserve it. Has the US made mistakes? Sure. But overwhelmingly we have helped so many countries and so many peoples. We are so active in the world and unfortunately, this makes us a major player and a major target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Die Hard, I'm not going to get sucked into a big debate, but to think the US somehow "provoked" the 911 attacks is truely ignorant. We have foreign policies that many countries don't like. Usually because these policies prevent nations from victimizing other nations. We don't go around killing innocent civilians from any country to make a political statement. If the US had been "laid back" and "minded its own business" during WW2, you'd probably be speaking German now. And BTW, Orange's post was obviously a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryman of the North Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 THERE ARE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS TO BOTH SIDES BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT CANADIANS FOR THE MOST PART ARE MORE EDUCATED ON WORLD HISTORY (oops sorry too lazy to retype)we concentrate on global politics more in schooll so other than the newfies we know what we are talking about.lol its not that ANY of us think that the US deserved the 9-11 atrocities but that the US has had a pretty poor record in the middle east and the southern america conflicts and that those things led to the events, things such as abandoning the kurds and other promises made to peoples in the balkans and middle easst led to the unpopularity of the US Now youll be hard pressed to find a bigger supporter of america but looking at the US with rose colored glasses is irritating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Well, not to disagree, but I think some serious re-evaluation is in order. It may be true that we didn't always make the right choice when dealing with matters in the Middle East. But think about that for a second or two. Is there ever really a correct choice when it comes to that god foresaken area on the globe. I mean really, your damned if you do and damned if you don't. Now you sit in Canada (as fine as your country may be--and I do love the tulip festival in downtown Ottowa by the way) and it's just so easy to critique moves in hindsight, you know what I mean? Quite frankly, Canada is not actively involved in too much of the worlds politics. So you may never be on anyone's radar, so to speak. But is that really better I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Originally posted by GaSkinsfan Die Hard, I'm not going to get sucked into a big debate, but to think the US somehow "provoked" the 911 attacks is truely ignorant. We have foreign policies that many countries don't like. Usually because these policies prevent nations from victimizing other nations. We don't go around killing innocent civilians from any country to make a political statement. If the US had been "laid back" and "minded its own business" during WW2, you'd probably be speaking German now. And BTW, Orange's post was obviously a joke. Dude, I'm member #1 here. I've been here for a long time and I've read *every* single post on the message board since we released this site. So I think I have a pretty good understanding of the people and the personas of this board. I'll trust my own judgment. And while I understood Orange's post was said "tongue-in-cheek"... it's pretty much understood among all Canadians - and it's very apparent on this board over the years - that to Americans... Canada is a non-factor in the world. And we'd like to believe our neighbour wasn't so brash and ignorant as to say it aloud. Americas foreign policy is pretty straight forward. Promote democracy, maintain the present world order and promote/expand it's economy. I'm not going to argue right/wrong or the pros/cons of every instance the US flexed its military might and invaded foreign soil. I don't need to. The fact of the matter is... you really can't expect those nations not to fight back. The US is continually involved in the politics of the Middle East. And they've gone to war over there either directly (ie. Iraq, Lebanon, etc) or indirectly (ie. selling arms to Isreal, shipping hardware and funding to rebel groups, etc). If you honestly don't think there's consequences to those decisions... Your argument is very childish. I never said America should mind it's own business. And don't be so naive to believe America's foreign policy is predicated on preventing the victimization of some nations from others. The States "pick" their battles... we can argue how selective the US has been in times of worldly transgressions if you'd like. I wholeheartedly advocate the US's support of Isreal in the Middle East. But in doing so, the US has a common enemy - terrorism. And the US surely recognized that before taking sides. Terrorism is a daily occurance in Isreal and a way of life in the Middle East. And I don't see how Americans can be so surprised that terrorists are starting to take the fight to them on their own soil. The precedent was already there with the bombing of embassies and naval ship. Now I don't condone terrorism. However, that's the type of fight these people fight. And you knew that going in. And it's not like the US hasn't take a few shots of its own. But like any fight... there's going to be a few battle scars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 it's pretty much understood among all Canadians - and it's very apparent on this board over the years - that to Americans... Canada is a non-factor in the world. And we'd like to believe our neighbour wasn't so brash and ignorant as to say it aloud. Die Hard, help me better understand what you mean by that? Non-factor in what way? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Die Hard, Since you read all the posts I won't disrespect you by not responding. First, I don't have a problem with you or Canada. I've been to Canada several times and really liked it. Good people, good skiing, good beer. I also should say that I love this site and appreciate the work that you and others have put in to it. It's especially great for a geographically challenged skins fans like me. That being said, I don't believe myself to be uneducated, childish, or naive. I have a college education, successful career and 2 children. I understand why you would not like the fact that many Americans do indeed consider Canada to be a non-factor. On the flip side, I don't like the fact that many Canadians seem to consider the U.S. over aggresive and in everybody's business. We do not invade enemy soil, and we do not attack innocent civilians. We are not conquerers. We defend our allies from aggressors, and we defend our national interests in foreign lands when necessary. Have we made mistakes, surely. I believe sometimes it is better to mistakes than to not act at all(I guess that depends on how big the mistake is). Have we turned aggressors angers towards us by hindering their efforts, most definitely. That's the price you pay sometimes for doing the right thing. Did we provoke the attacks on 911, no way. We did not kill thousands of their innocent civilians, and in our efforts to bring bin laden and his gang to justice, we still make every effort to not kill innocent people. Anyways, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Yomar's post really hit it on the head. The US is THE superpower in the world right now. No matter what we do there will be resentment from the rest of the world. Frankly, I was shocked there wasn't more of a 'they had it coming' responses from the rest of the world (not that I think that.) But the fact is we are probably the most benevolent world power in history. I will not apoligize for the US looking after it's own interests. After WW2, we could have made Western Europe the 51st state if we wanted to, and Japan the 52nd State. (As the Soviet Union DID do with Eastern Europe and tried to do with China.) We had 50% of the world's GDP and military might. We were the only country with The Bomb. What did we do? We poured Billions of dollars into Europe and Asia in order to stabilize war-weary nations and promote democracy. Our thanks? Protests and anger. Criticism and spite. Western European protesters chaining themselves to fences of our bases built to protect them. Despite this, we press on and wear down the Soviet Union until it crumbles and The Wall falls. Our thanks? Our methods criticized. We are incorrectly labelled colonialists and imperialists. Our common citizens being called ignorant of world politics. (Please. Freedom of the press is in our constitution. We INVENTED the concept. We are NOT ignorant.) Oh, and let's not forget rich, fat, lazy. Our cars go too slow and our beer is too flat and we're too prudish and Jews run the media and we can't clean up Europe's botching of the Middle East and Southeast Asia to everyone's liking so someone flies planes into our cities and ... we had it coming. This is our thanks. We need to take this in stride. It's nothing new. It comes with the territory ... and your welcome you ungrateful b@stards. Thus endith the rant. Hey, I just killed another ten minutes. Game is only 3 1/2 hours away now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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