Winslowalrob Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Palestine and Israel A dilemma over Hamas and its cash Feb 16th 2006 | JERUSALEM AND RAMALLAH From The Economist print edition The world is divided over how to deal with the Palestinian Authority under Hamas AN ARTICLE this week in the New York Times, alleging that the United States and Israel are hatching a plot to destabilise a Hamas-run Palestinian Authority (PA) by starving it of funds, caused a minor furore—and highlighted divisions over what to do about the Islamist party's resounding victory over the secular Fatah in last month's general election. An American diplomat was quoted as saying that the article was planted mischievously by European diplomats, while a European diplomat suggested it was an Israeli attempt to scare Hamas into moderating its stance. The truth is that the outside world knows what it wants, but cannot agree on how to get what it wants. The Middle East “quartet”—America, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations—says Hamas must end violence, sign up to a two-state solution and accept prior agreements made by the PA. What the members of the quartet cannot agree on is whether—or how—to use the lever of money to enforce those demands. The result is general confusion. While harder-line elements in the American and Israeli administrations may want to turn off the funding taps, others, especially in Europe, just want to reroute the cash to circumvent rules restricting aid to terrorist groups. This week, for instance, the EU proposed paying the PA's utility bills directly to its Israeli suppliers. There is talk of channelling all cash through the office of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president—though that, say most, looks like a particularly flimsy fig leaf. Some infrastructure projects, says an American contractor, could be reclassified as “essential humanitarian assistance” and be provided by the UN. Donors, especially American ones, may use the UN and World Bank, not bound by restrictions, as conduits to sidestep domestic political pressure. Or maybe they will start applying the same pressure to those agencies. Nobody yet knows. But the largest shortfall is going to be the $55m or so in revenues that Israel collects on the PA's behalf. Israel this week announced that transfers will stop after the new Hamas-dominated parliament convenes on February 18th, even before it forms a government. The fear is that Hamas may turn to sources the West cannot control. Two weeks ago Hamas was sounding conciliatory, but this week Mahmoud Zahar, one of its hard men, told America to keep its “satanic money”. Hamas leaders are now on a regional fund-raising tour: there is no shortage of donors worldwide who have helped it, and even tided the PA over in previous crises, though for how long they could plug the gap is unclear. America could press Arab leaders and banks not to provide or transfer money, and some might agree, but that would further inflame an already angry Arab street. In any case there are many informal networks—through Islamic charities in various countries, business people, or smugglers—that could let cash trickle through. Russia, which has invited Hamas leaders for talks (to Israel's fury), has a large Muslim population which may offer conduits of its own. The confusion has also left the donors unsure how to deal with a series of struggles for power within the PA itself. This week the outgoing Fatah legislature defiantly bestowed on Mr Abbas the power to appoint judges to a constitutional court, which could overturn laws: an attempt to declaw Hamas, which would need to drum up a two-thirds majority in parliament to undo it. “It's completely contrary to all the work that we've put into reform and state-building,” says a European diplomat, noting that in Yasser Arafat's time everything was done to weaken the president, “but we're letting them get away with it because it's politically expedient.” Yet Mr Abbas may not be behind the move; he publicly blocked another proposed law, which would have given him the power to dissolve parliament. Nor does he seem to be encouraging the anti-corruption witch-hunt that began after the election: his attorney-general announced a series of probes (none new), the prime minister's office shows sudden interest in foreign-designed anti-corruption ideas it had ignored before, and lists of targets for prosecution are circulating in the PA. In fact, such moves seem to be coming not from the top but from officials acting alone, perhaps trying to ingratiate themselves with the incoming government. Hamas has attacked Mr Abbas for appointing Fatah officials to key civil-service posts, but it has been quietly holding talks with top civil servants to ensure their co-operation. “Everything”, says a foreign contractor who works with the PA, “is going green”—the colour of Hamas. http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=5524608 We haven't payed attention to HAMAS in a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 What's the problem? It's a terrorist organization. I don't want my tax dollars going to it. Let the sauds finance them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 What's the problem? It's a terrorist organization. I don't want my tax dollars going to it. Let the sauds finance them Well, because you guys love to bandy about the WWII references, Hitler thrived on the economic hardships of the German people... Making these people poor is not going to moderate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I find it reprehensible that we would send any tax dollars to terrorists. The Palestinians elected these criminals let them deal with the government they elected. Economic pressure is a diplomatic tool to bring governments in line with accepted international policies. Screw them, They support violence, murder against their neighbors they sholud be treated as outcast in the world community, bunch of uncivilized nitwits anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Winslowrob: Do you think the destabilization of Hamas and Palestinian Government as good or bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Sending them money legitimizes them. Tell them the well is dry. And if the next time a bus blows up in Jerusalem, let them know that we'll be turning the other way while Israel wipes them from the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Winslowrob:Do you think the destabilization of Hamas and Palestinian Government as good or bad? Really really really really really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Let Hamas hang themselves.....I'm pretty happy that Hamas was elected....now there isn't just some fringe terrorist organization in the "Palestinian" areas they are the government...should any suicide bombers attack israel with Hamas backing Israel has a very legtimate international justification for wiping them off the face of the planet...which I think they will do..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Cut off the spicket....let the Palestinian people reap what they've sowed. Hamas will either relent and come to the table talking peace, a right for Israel to exist, and a comprehensive economic and political plan..... or they'll do what they've always done and subsequently bring the wrath of Israel upon them. Remember, it's not a radical terrorist group bombing innocent Israelis now.... it's a foreign govt. next door. That's a good way to wake up dead if you're a Palestinian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Winslowalrob doesn't seem to like this thread any more...too bad so sad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Winslowalrob doesn't seem to like this thread any more...too bad so sad... Sorry, I don't have a lot of free time. Can anyone here actually respond to the article though? Or are we trading cliches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Well, because you guys love to bandy about the WWII references, Hitler thrived on the economic hardships of the German people... Making these people poor is not going to moderate them. If you look back at all the aid given them, why are they STILL poor? Why do they depend on Israel for jobs? Why did they destroy the greenhouses left by the Israeli's? The carrot or the stick will never work untill they change,so let's keep our satanic money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 No money for Hamas.....the reason that the "Palestinian" governments never succeed is because they are corrupt and then have to deal with the terrorist organizations.....this ought to be interesting to see how Hamas operates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 If you look back at all the aid given them, why are they STILL poor?Why do they depend on Israel for jobs? Why did they destroy the greenhouses left by the Israeli's? The carrot or the stick will never work untill they change,so let's keep our satanic money ALL the aid given to them? Yeah, I forgot, they have been swimming in cash with all of our taxes being thrown at them. You cannot even find a Palestinian without a monacle or an ivory cane. They are all filthy rich. They depend on Israel for jobs because they HAVE NO COUNTRY. The majority live in refugee camps or ghettos. How many businesses are you going to find in a refugee camp? Where is the private sector in a ghetto? Guess where the jobs are; Israel. Guess where the jobs are not; "Palestine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 If I remember correctly, Arafat died with a couple billion of our tax dollars in his account that was supposed to go to the palistinians. Instead he used it to go to Switzerland for weekend get aways with his boyfriend and drink booze like a good muslim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 If I remember correctly, Arafat died with a couple billion of our tax dollars in his account that was supposed to go to the palistinians. Instead he used it to go to Switzerland for weekend get aways with his boyfriend and drink booze like a good muslim So every Palestinian has billions in an account, travels to Switzerland, and has a boyfriend? Man, where do I go to sign up for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 So every Palestinian has billions in an account, travels to Switzerland, and has a boyfriend? Man, where do I go to sign up for that? The point being Einstein, that Arafat controlled the pursestrings. Instead of giving it to the people, like it was intended, he used it on himself and his terrorist buddies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 The point being Einstein, that Arafat controlled the pursestrings. Instead of giving it to the people, like it was intended, he used it on himself and his terrorist buddies So, you are in favor of not giving Palestine money because Arafat, while dead, will take it? Or are you in favor of not giving Palestine money because people not affiliated with Arafat... will not recieve any? Punish the sin, not the sinner. If HAMAS got elected on an anti-corruption platform, and if we do not supply them with money they will get it from shadier governments, what is the problem? Arafat is dead dude. He won't be coming back. Unless Muslims can ressurect people, but I thought that was some other religion's bag... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm in favor of not giving money to anyone who won't acknowledge the right of their neighbor to exist. I'm in favor of not giving money to people that sponsor school bus bombings. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are a number of terrorist and/or Saud organizations you can make contributions to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm in favor of not giving money to anyone who won't acknowledge the right of their neighbor to exist. I'm in favor of not giving money to people that sponsor school bus bombings. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are a number of terrorist and/or Saud organizations you can make contributions to How many schools buses have been blown up since HAMAS took over? How many terrorist attacks has HAMAS committed since coming to power? If you want to REALLY contribute to terrorism, keep the Palestians poor and miserable, that will fix em lickety split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 WHO GIVES WHAT The Palestinian Authority (PA) was allocated $1.1 billion last year by international donors, a rise of 20 per cent on 2004. Arab League countries pledged $197 million, down from $388 million in 2001. At Gleneagles in July the G8 committed itself to raising $3 billion for the Palestinians over each of the next three years. Humanitarian aid is handled by UN agencies, projects by donor countries and support for wages and running costs through a trust administered by the World Bank The leading donors are: US $368 million EU $338 million Britain $43 million Italy $40 million Sweden $32 million Germany $27 million Spain $17 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 You don't think it is a bit dumb to start handing money over to an acknowledged terrorist organization that is pledged to the destruction of one our key allies in the middle east...an organization that is so dogmatic that it has had its followers walk into civilian areas and blow themselves up.....Give me a break...... Hamas needs to acknowledge Israels right to exist and the renounce violence...only then will the cash flow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 How many schools buses have been blown up since HAMAS took over? How many terrorist attacks has HAMAS committed since coming to power? If you want to REALLY contribute to terrorism, keep the Palestians poor and miserable, that will fix em lickety split. Took about two seconds to find this http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060224/ts_nm/mideast_dc GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli soldiers shot dead two Palestinian militants planting bombs along the Israeli border on Friday, drawing vows of revenge from the militant Islamist group Hamas as it prepared to form a Palestinian government. "Martyrs rest in peace and we will continue the struggle," thousands of Hamas supporters chanted as they fired into the air at funerals for the two militants killed in Gaza overnight. One of the dead militants was the son of Hamas co-founder and senior leader Abdel Fattah Dukhan, a newly-elected member of the Palestinian parliament. In another incident, a top Hamas bombmaker was killed when a device blew up as he was training militants to prepare explosives. "Hamas is continuing to train the mujahadeen in order to pursue their task of jihad," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri. Hamas has rebuffed international calls for it to disarm. Interim Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's security guru Avi Dichter said Hamas's nominee for prime minister Ismail Haniyeh could be targeted for assassination if Hamas carries out bombings. "If there will be a terror attack in which Israel decides to respond with a preventive step, Haniyeh would be a legitimate target because Hamas can not carry out a terror attack without Haniyeh's authorization," Dichter, who may serve as defense minister if Olmert's Kadima party wins the election, told the Yedioth Ahronoth daily. Haniyeh said Dichter's statement "is not worth comment." Hamas's landslide victory in the January 25 Palestinian election paved the way for the group to form a new cabinet and knocked down hopes Middle East peacemaking might be revived. Violence has spiked in recent days as Hamas -- whose charter calls for Israel's destruction -- began coalition talks. On Thursday, in the deadliest army raid since mid-2005, Israeli soldiers killed five Palestinians, at least three of them gunmen, near the West Bank city of Nablus. The army said the raid was to search for militants planning new bomb attacks. "The Israeli escalation ... is grave and heralds dangerous consequences," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri. "The enemy and the occupation will pay the price for their crimes." Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas sent a letter to the U.N. Security Council and the Quartet of major peace mediators -- the United States, the European Union, the United Nations and Russia -- asking for their intervention. Abbas told them that Israel was "threatening the atmosphere of calm that the Palestinian leadership is seeking to maintain," said Abbas adviser Nabil Abu Rdainah. BOMBMAKER DIES The gunmen killed in Gaza overnight were shot dead as they crawled toward the Gaza-Israel border fence to plant bombs, said the army and members of a Popular Resistance Committees militia faction linked to Hamas. Hours later, the Israeli air force fired missiles at a car ferrying militants back from a rocket attack in Gaza, the army said. The occupants fled before the missiles slammed into their vehicle. Olmert told Russian voters in a campaign appearance on Thursday ahead of a March 28 election that the army would confront militants "with all force and with all power." "As long as Hamas is a terrorist organization, they should be fought, not spoken to," Olmert said. Hamas, which has carried out almost 60 suicide bombings since a Palestinian uprising began in 2000, has largely abided by a year long truce. But Israeli security officials say Hamas has assisted other militant groups but has refrained from carrying out attacks under its own banner. Olmert is under pressure to be tough against militants in the face of criticism from right-wing opponents for failing to block Hamas's rise to power by preventing January's election. Pundits say that any Palestinian suicide attack could strip the big opinion poll lead of his centrist Kadima party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm in favor of not giving money to anyone who won't acknowledge the right of their neighbor to exist. I'm in favor of not giving money to people that sponsor school bus bombings. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are a number of terrorist and/or Saud organizations you can make contributions to This might be the first time I've ever agreed with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This might be the first time I've ever agreed with you. It's been a strange week with this and the port deal "Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!!!!!!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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