Clearing up the Domestic "Spying" issue

[gchwood]

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

EXERCISE OF CERTAIN AUTHORITY RESPECTING ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE

EO 12139

23 May 1979

By the authority vested in me as President by Sections 102 and 104 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802 and 1804), in order to provide as set forth in that Act (this chapter) for the authorization of electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes, it is hereby ordered as follows: 1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section. 1-102. Pursuant to Section 102( of the Foreign Intelligence Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(), the Attorney General is authorized to approve applications to the court having jurisdiction under Section 103 of that Act (50 U.S.C. 1803) to obtain orders for electronic surveillance for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information. 1-103. Pursuant to Section 104(a)(7) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1804(a)(7)), the following officials, each of whom is employed in the area of national security or defense, is designated to make the certifications required by Section 104(a)(7) of the Act in support of applications to conduct electronic surveillance: (a) Secretary of State. ( Secretary of Defense. © Director of Central Intelligence. (d) Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. (e) Deputy Secretary of State. (f) Deputy Secretary of Defense. (g) Deputy Director of Central Intelligence. None of the above officials, nor anyone officially acting in that capacity, may exercise the authority to make the above certifications, unless that official has been appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate. 1-104. Section 2-202 of Executive Order No. 12036 (set out under section 401 of this title) is amended by inserting the following at the end of that section: ''Any electronic surveillance, as defined in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, shall be conducted in accordance with that Act as well as this Order.''. 1-105. Section 2-203 of Executive Order No. 12036 (set out under section 401 of this title) is amended by inserting the following at the end of that section: ''Any monitoring which constitutes electronic surveillance as defined in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 shall be conducted in accordance with that Act as well as this Order.''. Jimmy Carter.

Seems to me after reading this that the Attorney General, Sec of State, Sec of Defense,

Director of CIA and/or Director of FBI and can initiate electronic surveilence, without the

need of a court order or Legislative approval

[Larry]

It would help if you'd indicate what you're quoting from.

But yes, AFAIK, FISA authorises wiretaps without a court order.

As long as a warrant is obtained later (within 72 hours).

[Joe Sick]

I'm glad that's all cleared up.

[Taylor 36]

It would help if you'd indicate what you're quoting from.

But yes, AFAIK, FISA authorises wiretaps without a court order.

As long as a warrant is obtained later (within 72 hours).

During a time of war, the President does not EVER have to get a warrant. That is the whole essence of this argument. That is why it is/was NOT in any way illegal for the administration to do what it has/is doing. Some people will just look for anything to ry and call out Bush. It is like all the democrats who didn't know that there was an Electoral College until 2000, but tried covering their ignorance with "Bush stole the election, boo hoo!!!"

[Larry]

During a time of war, the President does not EVER have to get a warrant. That is the whole essence of this argument. That is why it is/was NOT in any way illegal for the administration to do what it has/is doing. Some people will just look for anything to ry and call out Bush. It is like all the democrats who didn't know that there was an Electoral College until 2000, but tried covering their ignorance with "Bush stole the election, boo hoo!!!"

Could you please indicate to me which part of the Constitution it is that says "this entire document (and any laws or regulations based on it) is meaningless and irrelavant in time of war"?

(And that's even if you ignore the whole thing of "which country are we at war with". See, wars are things that happen between countries. Unless you want to claim, say, that Clinton had unlimited authority to ignore the Constitution for his entire administration, because we were at "war" with drugs, or poverty.)

[gchwood]

It would help if you'd indicate what you're quoting from.

But yes, AFAIK, FISA authorises wiretaps without a court order.

As long as a warrant is obtained later (within 72 hours).

what do you mean "indicate what you're quoting from?" This is the document that is in question put out by Jimmy Carter, the link is at the top. No where in that document does it say that a warrant must be obtained if initiated by the people specified nor does it talk of needing a court order. As long as it is electronic surveillence relating to foriegn threats it is ok to "spy." Honestly most people don't even care, it is not effecting them as the only calls monitored were intercontenental. Shoot I haven't called another country for 15 yrs, so it doesn't effect me.

[gchwood]

Could you please indicate to me which part of the Constitution it is that says "this entire document (and any laws or regulations based on it) is meaningless and irrelavant in time of war"?

(And that's even if you ignore the whole thing of "which country are we at war with". See, wars are things that happen between countries. Unless you want to claim, say, that Clinton had unlimited authority to ignore the Constitution for his entire administration, because we were at "war" with drugs, or poverty.)

First we are at war in Iraq, period. Can't debate that. we were at war with the former regime now with insurectionists.

Second tell me where in that document it says that warrants need to be issued? As long as a senior intelligence official (Sec state, sec defense, CIA Dir or FBI Dir) requests it, even if it is the presidents Idea, it is all kosher.

Funny thing is no one thinks about the physical surveillance that takes place all of the time and never complains, now the governement uses technology and man are we mad. Well not we, but mostly the media, which ironically uses photographic surveillance to get the latest dirt on celebrities, which we all love.

[Larry]

what do you mean "indicate what you're quoting from?" This is the document that is in question put out by Jimmy Carter, the link is at the top. No where in that document does it say that a warrant must be obtained if initiated by the people specified nor does it talk of needing a court order. As long as it is electronic surveillence relating to foriegn threats it is ok to "spy." Honestly most people don't even care, it is not effecting them as the only calls monitored were intercontenental. Shoot I haven't called another country for 15 yrs, so it doesn't effect me.

Um, the document in question, FISA, according to what I've been reading wasn't written untill '95. (It was written by the Republican congress, because President Clinton tried to claim that his position as President gave him the authority to order warrantless wiretaps in national security cases, and a President just couldn't be trusted with that kind of authority. That's where we're getting all of the "Clinton did it, too" posts.)

[gchwood]

Um, the document in question, FISA, according to what I've been reading wasn't written untill '95. (It was written by the Republican congress, because President Clinton tried to claim that his position as President gave him the authority to order warrantless wiretaps in national security cases, and a President just couldn't be trusted with that kind of authority. That's where we're getting all of the "Clinton did it, too" posts.)

do you see the date? 23 May 1979, this document is the addendum to the FISA of 1978! Jimmy Carter came up with these acts in respose to what had happened with Nixon and his wiretapping and he wanted to protect the citizens here and abroad

[Larry]

OK, I'd read that FISA was modified to cover electronic survailance under Clinton, but I didn't realise the original law was that much older. (From what I've been reading, Clinton claimed that FISA only applied to physical searches, and that therefore wiretap authority was unlimited. Congress disagreed, and changed the law.)

(At least that's the "Cliff Notes" version I've been seeing in the news.)