Carolina and Pittsburgh comments. And why Stai is here.

[Art]

Ok. I've just finished watching both games. I've even gone about bothering to chart each play by the starting offensive line for some of you who might need it . First, let me offer a couple of conclusions that may be especially meaningful to JonJeff, ASF and a handful of others.

After watching the Carolina game with the starters in the thing that struck me was JUST how dominating the line was. I was expecting to see the feet of the QB dirty by diving players. I was expecting to see leaky pass blocking. What I saw was, routinely, a beautiful pocket. And after watching THIS game and the Pittsburgh game back to back, I can say the reason Stai is here is because Ross Tucker is about to go to the bench.

Tucker did well against Carolina. He got blown up repeatedly against the Steelers. Rod Jones was destructive against the Panthers. He continually collapsed the line of scrimmage and yielded almost no movement at all on passing plays. The Pittsburgh game was different because Jones was outside where he held his own admirably.

Let no one say the Steelers didn't blitz a ton. They were coming after us. We held them off pretty well. I would like to now apologize to Bulldog. I'd cut Vickers the second Stai arrives. He's utterly worthless in the running game. On one run play he got battered with a club move and the play got blown up. In the passing game he's adequate and good enough as a backup. He's atrocious though when physically handled inside.

Tucker played well enough against the Panthers, but gave up too much penetration against the Steelers. He seemed to get used to it after a while and started holding his ground better, but not well enough. Bulldog was also right about where we might have blocking problems.

Our running backs are awful blockers. They continually blow blitz pickups and where Bulldog was wrong is Bryan Johnson is hopeless right now blocking in the running game. On one run had he blocked the right man, Davis would have been through for a nice gash. On another Davis cleanly made it through the line. If Johnson takes out the backer, it's over into the secondary. But, he simply bounced off.

On one pass play he let Flowers get around Wuerffel on Gardner's big play getting called for a hold. On one running play against Carolina the left side of the line ripped the Panthers. Nothing was outside except a corner and Anthony missed a block. It seems we have less of a problem with the offensive line than the OTHER guys who are not making their assignments.

I was horrified to see how many missed assignments we had by the backs and receivers. This is bad coaching on Spurrier Jr.'s part and Jackson's part. They have to get those guys producing. What was telling as a difference between the Steelers first half and the Panthers was not that the line was troubling at all. It did give up a bit more pressure, especially over Tucker.

But, Om nailed it. There was a lot of time on some plays and no one was open. Brenden Stai is here because Ross Tucker took too long to get used to the power and speed of the Steelers defenders and because if Samuels is at all gimpy Rod Jones showed he can play outside and we'd need a veteran guy inside.

Even on the sack Jones surrendered, Sage had four seconds free in the pocket on a play action and he simply didn't release the ball on time. For those wondering why Sage was cut, you don't need to wonder anymore. He was late on half his throws. Many were complete. Many were nearly picked. It was frustrating because you could see he was only a few months away from really having it click with him and then he could have been worth keeping, but, right now he's not.

Shane Matthews delivers the best ball. Even his bad throws -- save the one intercepted by the lineman that he was clearly trying to throw away -- were on target. He delivers a very pretty ball. Wuerffel is clearly most comfortable in the offense being much, much faster with his reads than Matthews.

If you guys want, I can post the play by play review of the offensive line. But, if I do, I'm going to challenge the requestor to go back and do the same and prove me wrong. JonJeff. After the Carolina game the ONLY feeling a person could have with the offensive line is that it's dominating. We CRUSHED the Panthers. We didn't have a u for a pocket. We had a U for a pocket. There was GREAT protection in that game. The running game, which we didn't try to do anything in, is harder to judge. Johnson missed two blocks. The receiver missed another. Hard to tell what we did there with that.

The other telling thing in the running game is Spurrier runs a lot from a single tight end with three receivers. This creates a short end to run around. Carolina keyed off this. The free linebacker was able to read the tight end blocking on the other side and come around a shorter end, running free and making a couple of plays.

I don't think you can run delays when you have the short end like that. You can run sweeps or power plays away if you don't allow penetration. I can't imagine we'll see THAT type of run play calling throughout the season. It is clear the opposition will key off it and stop most plays like that. Pittsburgh was different. We ran better overall, but blocked worse along the offensive line.

Where we had bad plays it was because the LINE was beaten. Against Carolina it was because of a free man or a back or receiver. I can say that after watching all three games now I am MUCH less uncomfortable with the offensive line situation than I was.

Some of you simply make me shake my head and wonder what you were watching because what was there, with the first teamers, was simply not bad and even pretty good. The second teamers did get battered a bit though .

[Art]

To get it out of the way. Carolina.

First drive.

-- Run: Johnson picks wrong man to block, doubling a backer and leaving a free one. If he picks the right guy, it's a nice gain. Line does job on play.

-- Pass: Ideal pocket. Yards to step up and make throw in the pocket. Lots of time.

-- Pass: Time to throw. Pressure comes late and is yard away from Matthews after the ball is released.

-- Pass: Several seconds to throw. No movement on interior line and hardly any outside.

-- Pass: Quick fade. Hard to judge on such short drops. Appeared to be no pressure.

-- Run: Blocking good along line and run side. Backside free LB closes down and destroys play.

-- Run: Sweep run on quick snap. First down. More sneaky than good.

-- Pass: Again, great pocket. Time to throw. No pressure at all.

-- Run: Great line blocking. Top half of field wide open. Receiver (Anthony I think) blows corner block. Corner slams down stopping play.

-- Run: Short yardage play for first.

-- Pass: Again, lots of time. Middle offers no penetration. Edge guys not close. Clean pocket and lots of time.

-- Pass: First big blitz. Seven men. Line holds. Gillespie blows block and his man hits Matthews on release.

-- Run: Nice gainer on inside trap. Blocked well, but, to be fair, they seemed to stunt out of position on play too.

-- Pass: Lots of time on completion. Great protection on play.

-- Pass: Time to run deep out in zone. Green drops TD pass. Protection rock solid.

-- Pass: Screen. Panthers stunt into screen pass. Pressure by design, ugly play.

-- Pass: Empty backfield. NO pressure. Pass caught short of zone.

Second Drive.

-- Pass: Play action. Time to throw. No one open. Pass thrown away.

-- Run: Cleanly through line. Johnson bounces off linebacker who makes tackle. Good block here leads to nice gainer. Jones has bad play. Blown up into backfield but actually helps open hole.

-- Pass: Lots of time. Deep out intercepted.

Third Drive.

-- Pass: Deep pass complete. Pressure comes in late after early solid look. Matthews not touched though.

-- Run: Nice hole left side. Jones pancakes man. Called for hold. Replay showed head ref called hold though he couldn't see hands. GREAT block.

-- Pass: Blitz off slot corner. Anthony points out blitzer, but, Rock misses call. Comes off too late and Matthews hit. No line pressure.

-- Pass: Time to set up. Blocking great. Pass knocked away to Thompson.

-- Run: Draw. Nice run. Don't know how to rate the line on a draw. It's a draw. Bleh.

-- Pass: No pressure. Tucker moved back hard two yards but holds.

-- Pass: Perfect blocking. Splendid pocket. TD to Lockett on post. Matthews steps into clean pocket again. Textbook.

Fourth drive

-- Pass: Another seven-man blitz. Great pickup by Betts on free man. No penetration anywhere.

-- Run: Over Tucker. Tucker blows assignment and whiffs on block against middle backer.

-- Run: Jones collapses the left side opening room for first down run.

-- Pass: Odd play. Tight end gets defensive end and Samuels left alone picking his nose. Looked like heavy pressure but Samuels came back in and knocked guy off of Flemister and Matthews, but Matthews already started running.

-- Run: Jones again blows down and collapses side. Another first.

-- Pass: Samuels sprains ankle. Pressure because of that.

-- Run: Another draw. Bleh.

-- Pass: Perfect pocket again. Again, when we say perfect pocket, we mean perfect. NOTHING up the middle at all. It's scary perfect.

-- Pass: Great blocking. Pocket clean. Not quite as deep as last. No pressure at all.

-- Pass: TD to Anthony. SIX seconds to throw and more time was left. No pocket because no one got off the line. Complete manhandle by our line.

Fifth drive

-- Pass: Clean pocket again. No pressure.

-- Pass: Fall down sack. Tripped over guard.

-- Pass: Blitz. Picked up. No pressure.

-- Pass: Coleman beaten badly allows big hit on QB.

-- Pass: All day again. Time runs out toward the end as right tackle starts to buckle but only after the pass is complete.

-- Pass: Blitz snuffed. Lots of time to throw.

[Art]

Pittsburgh game.

First drive.

-- Pass: Plenty of time. Outside blitz creates late pressure on complete pass. First option taken on reads.

-- Run: Nice gain, but came back from break late and didn't really see it.

-- Pass: Good time on blitz. No one open. Wuerffel scrambles.

-- Pass: Bad snap fumble.

Second drive.

-- Pass: Line handles interior. Flowers free. Johnson blows block and ends up getting called for hold on 19-yard completion. Moderate pressure due to Johnson's miss.

-- Run: Ugly. Vickers clubbed and stood there like he was raped. Run stuffed by his man.

-- Pass: WR Screen. Hard to judge time on play.

-- Pass: Blitz again. Nice one over mans right side of line. Tucker gets beat. Long INT.

Third drive.

-- Run: Tucker totally blown up. His man creates stop of run.

-- Pass: Good time to throw. Coverage tight causes pump fake then progression to second.

-- Pass: Good time. Quick pass. Dropped.

Fourth Drive.

-- Pass: Blitz picked up nicely. Plenty of time. No pressure.

-- Pass: Quick fade. No pressure.

-- Run: Big gasher up the middle. Well blocked all around.

-- Pass: Play action. Long time to throw. Camping. QB late on throw.

-- Pass: Blitz held up against. Tucker getting pushed back and gives up late face pressure but no touch.

-- Pass: Perfect pocket. Ideal protection. First totally like Carolina play I saw. Others with good protection, but this was perfect, like most of the Panther game.

Fifth drive.

-- Pass: Play action. Seconds to throw. Jones allows late pressure. Sage hit in act of throw for fumble. This one is on Sage, or Spurrier didn't have an outlet in the route. Either or.

Sixth drive.

-- Pass: Ton of time. No one open.

-- Run: Fair blocking. No major loss. No major win.

-- Pass: No pressure at all on near INT play.

-- Pass: Blitz picked up. Zero pressure on play.

-- Pass: Great blocking with horrible pass. INT.

Seventh drive.

-- Run: Delay. Solid play good blocking.

-- Run: Sweet run. Best blocked play in the running game in two games.

-- Pass: Perfect pocket and blocking.

-- Pass: Again, all day. Half over.

[Yomar]

Art, thanks for the play-by-play since I only got to listen...judging by those offensive series, it doesn't really seem like Tucker had that bad a game, got beat once on a blitz and got puched back but held his ground on another blitz, based on all the other plays it sounds like he did OK for himself against a pretty tough D

[Art]

I agree Yomar. But, only on two plays did his bad blocking really cause any impact. There were a couple of others where he was getting moved a bit. Toward the end though he was stemming the tide and pushing back well against the same guy so that was encouraging. He needs more reps and he does seem capable of adjusting to the power. He just had some problems with it.

[W&M]

Holy **** Art! You the man :notworthy

Any chance I can get your break down a few college games for me, I was thinking of trying my luck again with Rocko ... the Bookie:doh:

[Yomar]

In Tuckers defense, I have some experience, be it ever so modest, at guard, and it can look to an observer like you are getting beat, when you are actually letting a guy run himself out of a play...not saying that is what happened, just a maybe, again I didn't see it

[Brave]

Art

I would like to now apologize to Bulldog.

And the heavens opened. And there was great rejoicing. And those that said Art could never apologize gazed silent and open-mouthed at the skies (perhaps to look at the flying pigs).

[Art]

Brave, please. When something is right, it's clearly so. Bulldog was more right on Vickers value than I was. I always admit when observed fact differs than my previously thought opinion on a situation. I expect others to be very much the same. .

Yomar. Fair enough. As I said on one play where Jones was beat, it helped the play, so, perhaps he meant to be. In Tucker's plays, also as a former lineman long ago, you can take my word. They weren't on purpose .

[Montilar]

Good review.

I've noticed the pass blocking of the RB's haven't been up to par. Especially of rock and gillespie. There have been a couple of plays each game where they totally miss the block or get run over. Gillepsie on one occasion dove at the blitzers legs, only to have the blitzer jump over him. Wimp was afraid to take the blitzer on.

And most people who remember Vickers from the Tampa playoff game probably felt that way about him.

[Brave]

Don't get thin-skinned on me here, Arthur.

This is good information. Sounds like we have adequate protection for a QB who makes decisons quick enough (perhaps giving DW another slight edge) but not enough to wait out good coverage. Nothing wrong with that ... it's as much as I would have hoped for out of the gate.

I don't know that we've had enough running plays to judge the run blocking yet. I have to wonder if as the QB/WR situation becames clearer will Spurrier begin to run the ball more over these last two preseason games?

[Art]

Brave, you can be certain my skin will not thin. Just pointing out that the obvious is something I've always admitted and nudging some who may have a hard time with it to do the same .

[stevea]

Art .... great write-up!!! ... thank you.

Now, two questions:

1. When you say, "Perfect pocket again. Again, when we say perfect pocket, we mean perfect."

Who's "we"? (not delusions of royalty, I hope)

2. When Tuck was beaten several times in the Steelers game, who was it who beat him? If it was Aaron Smith it's not as serious as if it were a lesser player.

HTTR!

[Art]

On question one, we is a friend of mine and I going over it together. He's a former college center and he was raving about the Carolina game saying it was textbook almost all game describing a perfect pocket as a deep one where the edges are bowed around the QB and the middle surrenders almost no movement backward at all.

On question two, I can't really tell you right now. I didn't chart the player beating anyone. Just the beating . On a couple it was a sweeping LB blitz. On a couple it was his man. I can go look back and let you know but not until Sunday probably.

[jonjeff]

C'mom Art, Carolina? If we couldn't dominate them then who could we? That's great, we dominated one of the worst teams in the NFL, terrific! All I tried to say was that if anyone thought for one moment that we were going to be sucessful with the likes of Ross Tucker and Kip Vickers at the gaurd slots they were crazy. Rod Jones is no more than a backup tackle, not a starting gaurd as the Redskin front office wanted him to be. This is the worst group of gaurds I have ever seen, bar none. If you think for one moment you can compare pre season football to regular season football your dumber than I thought. Thank God somebody woke up and traded for Stai. At least he plays gaurd and isn't another tackle trying to make the switch. We still need another gaurd for the left side of the line too. Hopefully we will find another starter when the cutdowns begin next week. So Art, maybe you were OK with what we had up front, and your opinion was that they played well against the Panthers and Steelers. That's great. I didn't. In fact I flat out thought we sucked! Even our coaches didn't have much good to say about this group. No I'm not going to break down play for play to prove or unprove your point. The only point, and main point at that is, the Skins were never going to contend for a playoff berth with Ross Tucker, Kip Vickers or Rod Jones starting at gaurd. Say what you want, your not going to change my mind one bit.

[Larry]

I think I agree with you, Art. The blocking problems I've seen have involved backs. (Particularly their ability to pick up blitzes, which I think improved a lot vs. Pitt).

Since I think any SOS back (with the hopefull exception of Davis) is gonna be picking up blitzes a lot more often than he'll be carrying the ball, I suspect that's what they'll be judged on.

[NavyDave]

I still envision R Jones next to Samuels as a monster combo for S Davis to run behind in a change of pace from the pitch and catch.

but with Stai we should now have two capable backup that can rotate into the line and keep us fresh up front i the trenches.

[SonnyJ]

In one corner, we have Art: Flame Warrior

In the other, JonJeff: Flame Warrior

Gentlemen, shake hands and come out fighting.:cool:

[Art]

Jon, reply within.

"C'mom Art, Carolina? If we couldn't dominate them then who could we? That's great, we dominated one of the worst teams in the NFL, terrific!"

According to you, we couldn't. You made statements regarding our line play that for three weeks have demonstrated extreme weakness. That's utterly and completely and observably and documented to be false. We destroyed Carolina. That game was so good the ONLY feeling you could take from that was, "Gosh, that was nice."

"All I tried to say was that if anyone thought for one moment that we were going to be sucessful with the likes of Ross Tucker and Kip Vickers at the gaurd slots they were crazy."

You didn't say that. You said, after the Steelers game, that Jones and Tucker weren't going to cut it. You never mentioned Vickers. What you said, then, essentially was that after the Niners and Panthers game, you saw enough of Jones to know he couldn't play, and the same with Tucker after an additional game.

"Rod Jones is no more than a backup tackle, not a starting gaurd as the Redskin front office wanted him to be."

Rod Jones is a valuable backup tackle as evidenced from solid play against the Steelers. Using the Carolina game as evidence about his guard skills, you'd put him in the Pro Bowl. He's not going to play as well as he did against Carolina in every game, but people who do play that well are Pro Bowlers. Over and over he destroyed his side of the line blocking against Carolina.

"This is the worst group of gaurds I have ever seen, bar none."

Then you weren't watching. Each play our guards were in is demonstrated. You said we didn't have time against the Steelers. We had good time. I agree with you on Vickers not being a good option for us now. But, you never mentioned Vickers.

"If you think for one moment you can compare pre season football to regular season football your dumber than I thought."

Yet you can compare preseason and forecast it out to regular season and I'm the one who is dumber than you'd think? Jon, what you've JUST admitted here is, "Ok, the line looked good in the preseason so far. I know I've been saying different, but, I'm still right that they suck because you can't project this out to the regular season." Yawn. Why can't you exactly? The starters are playing the starters, right? The Steelers blitzed, right? The Panthers blitzed right? Isn't that like the regular season. It's harder to project the passing game in the preseason out to the regular season, but line play is largely man on man, and that is more easily projected out to the regular season.

"Thank God somebody woke up and traded for Stai. At least he plays gaurd and isn't another tackle trying to make the switch."

I couldn't agree with you more. Stai is a solid addition and one that was clearly always coming. The team was always going to add another veteran to the mix. That was never in doubt. Tucker showed some weakness against the Steelers and may need more seasoning before taking the risk on. Stai helps bring him along until he's completely ready and allows us more flexibility.

"We still need another gaurd for the left side of the line too."

Judging from the Steelers game, I agree. Vickers can't do it. Judging from the Carolina game, I disagree, because Jones was killing people. But, then judging from the Steelers game again, I may agree because Jones played so well at tackle, I'd hate to lose him at guard and have no good backup at either tackle spot. Tricky spot to be in.

"Hopefully we will find another starter when the cutdowns begin next week. So Art, maybe you were OK with what we had up front, and your opinion was that they played well against the Panthers and Steelers."

It's not an opinion in the slightest. It's fact. Each play was watched, rewound and watched again. The line played exceptionally well against Carolina. It played less well against the Steelers, but, clearly, it played very well in the passing game and had some physical beatings in the Steelers game with Vickers and Tucker. Overall, the Steelers game was more a B-. The Carolina game was more an A.

There is no opinion about this. The line played great in one game and ok in the other. You are aware, are you not, that there are 11 people on the field and the offensive line is just five of the 11 and they can only generally block five guys right? If they are doing that and other blocks are not made, is that the line's fault, or someone elses?

"That's great. I didn't. In fact I flat out thought we sucked!"

And you have been proven wrong and wanting on your evaluations. If that wasn't the case it would have been posted that you were right. You were wrong. Bulldog and Om were right though. The facts of the game don't lie.

"Even our coaches didn't have much good to say about this group."

The coaches were very complimentary about the line in the Panthers game. They were pretty complimentary about the protection in the Steelers game. They have said we need to run better and we do. We need to run better and more. But, if the line is doing it's five parts of the job, everyone else has to be held accountable too. The Panthers game we saw the line play really well. We saw the others play worse. Against the Steelers, we saw Vickers and Tucker beaten a few times and others play better. It'll take time for certain to get the running game purring.

"No I'm not going to break down play for play to prove or unprove your point."

You don't need to bother, Jon. I've saved you the trouble and the evidence is you are wrong. I've broken it down for you and as you see, largely we had solid blocking and great protection. We also had some physical problems that needed correction and additions of players, but we've been saying that for months.

"The only point, and main point at that is, the Skins were never going to contend for a playoff berth with Ross Tucker, Kip Vickers or Rod Jones starting at gaurd. Say what you want, your not going to change my mind one bit."

I've never uttered the words contend and the Redskins together for this season. I find that with Larry Allen we might not be able to contend if the systems don't gell together. We might if they do, but it's a big wish for them to. Your point though was much more than you are saying now. And, I don't have to persuade you that your mind needs changing. The facts are different than you stated and that should be enough to change your mind about how our line played.

Again, watch the Panther game. If Jones plays like that in every game at guard he'll be in the Pro Bowl. Obviously it's not likely he'll be that good in every game. He was in that game though. And to think he's still picking up his position and you could see he was thinking through his assignments more than playing through them.

[Art]

That is pretty funny Sonny. I don't think Jon has a reputation for not listening to better information than he had before, but, perhaps you are right. I think he'll come around though. I was a tad surprised by his anger toward having the facts presented to him without any personal venom aimed towards him other than this post was information designed for those who were of the mind that the line is horrible.

In fact, it's demonstrated that it's pretty good and has to get better. That it's pretty good and still can get better is what's encouraging.

[SonnyJ]

Originally posted by Art

That is pretty funny Sonny. I don't think Jon has a reputation for not listening to better information than he had before, but, perhaps you are right. I think he'll come around though. I was a tad surprised by his anger toward having the facts presented to him without any personal venom aimed towards him other than this post was information designed for those who were of the mind that the line is horrible.

In fact, it's demonstrated that it's pretty good and has to get better. That it's pretty good and still can get better is what's encouraging.

I've never noticed that either from him. He certainly seems to have his mind made up on this issue, though.

I agree about the OL, though. I reviewed some of the Steeler game myself and didn't find the line play to be a problematic issue. With the acquisition of Stai, I'm reasonably optimistic that the Skins will turn out just fine up front once the bullets start flying.

[jonjeff]

Art,

I'm not about to get into a war of words with someone like yourself. You obviously love the Skins as I do. Let me say this though. I have been a Skins fan since 1969. I have seen alot of players come and go. I have seen some great ones, and of course some lousy ones! Some great teams and some lousy teams. This years team is very close to being a very good one. The lone area of concern from my point of view is the offensive line. With the lack of talent inside, and the injury to Sammuals, I am very concerned as to how this group will preform come opening day. The addition of Stai helps somewhat, but I fear that him being with four different teams in the past couple of seasons says something. I would have much rather had Gandy, or even Brad Bager for that matter. I just have my reservations on Stai. I hope they turn out to be nothing. He was a solid player while he was with the Steelers. I still feel we will add another gaurd after the two upcoming cutdowns. Maybe then I will feel a little better about our o-line. Until then I just don't like what we have that much. I didn't mean to come across like I was pis*ed off, but I bet you could have polled this board with the question, "How do you feel about our offensive gaurds", and the results would have been pretty much one sided to the negative. I still stand by my statement that preseason means little. Players aren't going full tilt. The only ones playing all out are the fringe players that are fighting for a roster spot. Just because this offensive line has done well(this according to you, not me) throughout the first three preseason games, does not translate this will carry out into the regular season. I'm sorry Art I just don't see it your way. Which is what makes this board so great. Alot of Redskin fans with plenty of opinions. You have yours, I have mine. The bottom line Art is that I haven't been impressed in the least with our interior offensive line since day one. The loss of Cory Raymer was huge. Plug him back into the middle and we are much better. Resign Ben Coleman and put him beside Chris Sammuals and our running game would benifit greatly. Infact, Sammuals, Coleman, Raymer, Stai and Jansen would have made me just peachy! But alas, that won't happen. So I guess we are stuck with what we have for now. So Art, I guess we agree to disagree huh? I am not looking to get into a war of words with a guys that has plenty of words to go around. I know the end result is that we both bleed burgandy and gold. We both long for a return to the glory days, as do all of our board buddies. For everyone's sake I hope you are right about our o-line, and I am way off base. This is one time I want to be wrong Art! Peace man!

[Art]

Jon, reply within.

"Art,

I'm not about to get into a war of words with someone like yourself."

Why on earth not? I have a lot of words to war with, so, I'm here for you if you need it .

"You obviously love the Skins as I do. Let me say this though. I have been a Skins fan since 1969. I have seen alot of players come and go. I have seen some great ones, and of course some lousy ones! Some great teams and some lousy teams. This years team is very close to being a very good one."

Perhaps. It's hard for me still to believe a team can be brought together as quickly as we'd like for us to achieve a very good status this year. But, I'm very hopeful.

"The lone area of concern from my point of view is the offensive line. With the lack of talent inside, and the injury to Sammuals, I am very concerned as to how this group will preform come opening day."

We don't have a lack of talent inside. Rod Jones was a franchise level left tackle three years ago. He got a bit fat and sassy with a nice contract and he got booted into a backup status. But, he's a highly skilled player with a great deal of talent. He needs to be driven obviously. Moore is a four year starter in Indy, which is a place that produces solid offensive lines and good offensive production. Admittedly Tucker is a wild card, but, there was NEVER any doubt we were not done with moves on the offensive line.

"The addition of Stai helps somewhat, but I fear that him being with four different teams in the past couple of seasons says something."

What's it say? It says something that he's started every game the last four years. Doesn't it to you? It says something to me the Jags were in need of a guard, wanted Stai in free agency, couldn't get him and then traded for him, and started him the whole year. It says something to me that he then signed a fat free agent contract for a guard with Detroit where he started every game. He was then traded to us. Players move around in this league. Serviceable players like Stai are not immune to that.

"I would have much rather had Gandy, or even Brad Bager for that matter."

Gandy's never played a down in the league. You'd rather have him? So, what you're saying is you are SOOOOOO concerned with the offensive line performance in the preseason that you want a player who's never played? That'd fix it would it? Badger is an interesting one. At least there's some reason to believe he's capable in this league. The ONLY thing you know about Gandy is the Redskins considered trading for him in the Ramsey trade. His qualifications are no different than David Loverne. If you want to fix the offensive line, you don't take a prospect. You take a proven player. Badger perhaps, though I think he's too slight. I'd take Badger of Gandy though for immediate help. What Gandy becomes is yet to be seen.

"I just have my reservations on Stai. I hope they turn out to be nothing. He was a solid player while he was with the Steelers."

He was a solid player with the Jags too. That's why he got paid in Detroit to pay there. He was named by his team as the best lineman in Detroit. He was solid there too. Stai has always been solid. That's why he plays every game as the starter. He's not great. He is solid by all appearances, solid.

"I still feel we will add another gaurd after the two upcoming cutdowns. Maybe then I will feel a little better about our o-line."

Perhaps. Though the spots are going to get tight now. Who would you cut to feel better because now you are talking about releasing players.

"Until then I just don't like what we have that much."

That's fair. It's worrisome to me too. That what we have played so well in three games is evident and clear. That's a benefit to us despite our legitimate worries.

"I didn't mean to come across like I was pis*ed off, but I bet you could have polled this board with the question, "How do you feel about our offensive gaurds", and the results would have been pretty much one sided to the negative."

A poll about how you feel is one thing. A measure of how they actually have performed is another. I've no doubt a poll would have revealed a negative feeling. Equally, there's no doubt that observable performance in the game would leave you coming away with a positive one, if not a comfortable one.

"I still stand by my statement that preseason means little."

Fine. But, then you don't stand by your repeated assessments that in your view we didn't play well in the preseason and therefore we won't in the regular season. You are now saying you simply don't believe the preseason matters. Before you were saying we've sucked so we'll suck. Upon hearing we didn't suck, it's now that well, it doesn't matter and we'll still suck. Ok. If that's how you feel, that's ok.

"Players aren't going full tilt. The only ones playing all out are the fringe players that are fighting for a roster spot. Just because this offensive line has done well(this according to you, not me) throughout the first three preseason games, does not translate this will carry out into the regular season."

This line has done well by any measure you can come up with. It's not me saying it. It's the actual fact of the matter dictating it. You don't have to agree. The truth is not always embraced for the truth that it is. But, what is, is, and according to how the line has played, it's done pretty well so far.

"I'm sorry Art I just don't see it your way. Which is what makes this board so great. Alot of Redskin fans with plenty of opinions. You have yours, I have mine."

It's not an opinion. It's factual assessment of the line based on each play they've played in the last two games. An opinion can be that despite how they've played they may not be solid enough when the games go live. An opinion can be that due to how they've played they will be solid enough. But, how they played is not an opinion right now. It's unquestioned fact. And all you have to do to realize it is watch the game and chart against what I've done and show how it's not so. You couldn't, and that's the key.

"The bottom line Art is that I haven't been impressed in the least with our interior offensive line since day one. The loss of Cory Raymer was huge."

Raymer's loss was huge if Marty is the coach. He's not. Raymer is a much lesser player in this offense than Moore is.

"Plug him back into the middle and we are much better. Resign Ben Coleman and put him beside Chris Sammuals and our running game would benifit greatly."

Coleman is interesting. He's probably not at all different than Stai in terms of strengths. But, he has a creeky knee that may be why he has not seen a whiff from anyone in the free agency period. I liked Coleman. I think he and Stai are very similar performers but Stai is a more physically healthy player.

"Infact, Sammuals, Coleman, Raymer, Stai and Jansen would have made me just peachy!"

Trust me when I tell you that Raymer in this offense would have made you aggressively violent against the world. He can't play this system. He's a brawler and a gamer and he's a fun guy. He can't pass block very well. And here, he'd be run out of town on a rail with Spurrier calling plays. He is a better player overall in my view than Moore is. But, for what we do, he's really not.

"But alas, that won't happen. So I guess we are stuck with what we have for now. So Art, I guess we agree to disagree huh?"

Sorry, we can't agree to disagree. You can't disagree with reality and find me ok with it. Having a different opinion is fine. That we actually have a similar opinion means we ultimately agree. But, you can't disagree with the assessment of the line because it's now factual record. It is better than you thought upon first view. Go back, compare what I wrote and what is happening and you'll say, "Hey, what is, is. I get it." .

"I am not looking to get into a war of words with a guys that has plenty of words to go around. I know the end result is that we both bleed burgandy and gold. We both long for a return to the glory days, as do all of our board buddies. For everyone's sake I hope you are right about our o-line, and I am way off base. This is one time I want to be wrong Art! Peace man!"

I've not made an assessment of the offensive line in terms of how it will perform during the year. I worry it won't come together in time too. On the field in the preseason games that it has given GREAT protection is without question. You don't think now that preseason is a reflection though and that's ok. We can agree to disagree there. But, I'm worried it takes more time than we've allowed for the line to come together too. I don't know how it will play. I just know how it has played. And, if what we're worried about is how it has played, we no have no reason to worry. Especially with Stai in the fold.

[jonjeff]

Art,

My knowledge of Gandy has to do with my avid college football following. I thought he was a very fine player for ND, and that he would be a very solid lineman at the next level. Your right though, he hasen't played a down of starting football in the NFL. I just feel he has some great potential. It will be tough to bring this thing all together in one season, but if anyone can do it, Spurrier can. I think we are on the edge of a wildcard spot. Another couple of additions in the next two weeks, who knows. I don't know much about Larry Moore. I don't follow AFC football to a great degree. I'll take your word on him. Ditto that on Stai. Your points are well made. So I guess that leaves us 4/5's completed across the front, with right gaurd being the only open spot correct? Who's your man there? Just one other thing Art. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't remember saying that the whole team has sucked during the preseason. I was pleased with the victory over the fortwhinners. The points scored and the passing game were great. The rushing game was not. I didn't see the Panther game, only the stats. Once again plenty of points and passing yards. Very little rushing yards. The Steeler game I watched the first half before having to go into work. It made me sick. No points, passing yards, or rushing yards. All three games have a common bond, a failure to generate a rushing attack. Sammuals missing against the Steelers was huge, no doubt. But do you see the same thing I do? No rushing game. Yea Spurrier is focusing on his passing attack, but when push comes to shove, are we going to be able to run the ball effectively with what we have up front? You know as well as I do, games are won up front. It would be a terrible waste to have Stephen Davis getting under 10 carries a game, but if we can't get any better run blocking up front it might just be reality. Any thoughts?

[Art]

Jon,

I think Stai has to be the right guard. I'd be surprised if he's the left guard. I think we'd be wise to try Tucker at left guard this week. If we use Vickers it means he's in front for that spot and that's not something I'd find pleasing. Jones would be the sure-fire starter there, but given he'll now be almost a month without playing the position he was having trouble picking up anyway, I don't think he'll factor in until later.

Tucker is the best immediate hope I think. If you see him at left guard and Vickers at right guard that tells you the team wants him to succeed there knowing Stai is likely to fall in on the right. If not, they just plan on using him as a right guard and backup to most line spots.

For the record, I haven't said you indicated the whole team sucked. We agree that the running game needs to be better. But, that's more on Spurrier right now than anyone else. He'll call it when he wants to. He seems to have a different agenda right now. Against the Steelers we had 45 yards rushing in the first half. Not great, but solid on eight carries. This with two awful plays where Tucker and Vickers got hammered.

We had great line protection in the passing game. We had a drop on a third down. We had a big pass called back due to a fullback holding. We had a fumbled snap on a third down. We simply never got in sync in the game, but, that had nothing to do with the offensive line. The people dropping the ball or missing blocks weren't them. They were the backs and receivers.

As for Davis, I'm convinced if we have the PRECISE same run blocking up front that we've had against Carolina and Pittsburgh, Davis will have 1500 yards rushing. But, only if the receivers and backs make their blocks too. Again, the five lineman can only block the five guys they are assigned to. If the receivers and backs aren't making blocks and doing their job, Davis won't go anywhere.

Against the Steelers the receivers and backs did a better job blocking. The line got beat on two occasions clearly. Against Carolina the line did a great job blocking, but the backs and receivers were atrocious. I also believe Spurrier is smarter than the rest of us. He knows how to get people involved in the offense and I don't think Davis is our worry right now.