More on Ray Brown (Washington Post)

[Larry Brown #43]

This appeared in today's Washington Post...

Interest around the league appears to be increasing in veteran guard Ray Brown, and several teams seem to be pressing the free agent to sign. The Redskins renewed discussions with Brown's agent this week, and likely would try to sign Brown by the end of next week if they're unable to trade for a younger guard capable of starting.

IN OTHER WORDS, Rather than signing him now so he can start learning the offense, we'll wait until a bidding war drives his price throught the roof and we are no longer able to afford him, allowing him to sign elsewhere. BRILLIANT!! :gus:

[Awesome]

End of next week??? great, so he would get 2 whole weeks to learn the offense:doh:

[bulldog]

I could see this one coming. You have teams that are in camp and seeing players they counted on performing at less than expected levels and Brown becomes more attractive as a vet you can slide in there either to start or be a nice #3 swing player at the guard spots.

I was of the opinion we should have signed Brown right after the Ramsey deal with Chicago for Gandy and draft picks fell through.

All this preliminary feeling around to teams like the Raiders is just not getting us anywhere.

The Skins want to acquire a 27 or 28 year old player from another team that can come in and start but they don't want to give up more than a late round draft choice for the privilege.

We need to see the forest through the trees here and start being more realistic.

Glenn Parker is not an option, the guy can't even decide whether he wants to continue to play football. Who wants a guy, even if he is healthy (which Parker is not), who is not fully committed to making the sacrifice?

Other players mentioned like Badger and Ackerman are decent players but neither is as solid as Brown even at 39.

Badger has been unable to nail down a starting job anywhere in his travels and Ackerman was released by the Saints before they even had a replacement for him.

Other names I have heard are Mo Collins and Marcus Spears.

Good luck. Both players are going to require a higher pick in compensation than the Skins are going to want to part with and neither player is a world beater.

My advice is still to keep the draft picks and sign Brown now.

I also think we might need to add a SECOND free agent vet on the line in the coming week as well.

Moore at center, Brown at one guard spot and Samuels and Jansen on the outside.

There is still a question of whether Jones fills the LG spot adequately and if Chris misses more time may be pressed into action at LT.

In that case we will need another guard. And I don't think Tucker, despite his improvement, is ready for a full-time gig yet.

[@DCGoldPants]

agreed! first prize!

[spanishomelette]

Well, Coleman has not signed with anybody because he was waiting for the big paycheck...Isn't it possible that Brown and his agent are doing the same thing? The FO may not have much choice but to wait for the agents to give them the time of day.

[Larry Brown #43]

The FO may not have much choice but to wait for the agents to give them the time of day.

I don't know about that...Ray Brown indicated from Day 1 that he wanted to sign with the Skins. We dragged our feet from the beginning...and we still are. What do they say about "He who hestitates...?"

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Brown could have been here at the start of camp. And like bulldog said if he isn't the starter he would be a nice depth pickup. I think his vet background would help the young guys to reach there potential. Look how darrel has helped Smoot and Bailey. Bringing in Brown would not only give us short term relief but he could be a on the field coach helping the young guys. I think Brown is a win win situation.

[matty dread]

We could have signed Brown a month ago. I'm still mystified as to why we didn't! The second he hit the waiver wire, someone should have had his agent on the phone.

:gus:

[Cskin]

The thing is, no other team signed Brown the day he hit the waiver wire either. Everyone seems to think it's all the F.O.'s fault. Could it be that, eventhough Brown said he wanted to sign with the Redskins, that his salary demands were not proportionate to a 39 year old one time Pro Bowler? And, might we be better served to find a younger, more athletic guard to acquire and build around than a 40 something guard with obviously declining skills?

Until we learn the salary demands and the Redskins stance on the matter...... let's quit speculating. Plus, I'm happy with the progress of Ross Tucker at one of the guard spots. He's young and has the heart to play this game.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

My guess is that the delay with Brown all these months has been a combination of denial by Helton (denial that he really needed Brown) and reluctance by Brown to sign a minimum salary deal offered him by the Redskins.

As a 10+ year veteran, Brown is due a minimum salary of $750,000, only $450,000 of which counts against the team salary cap. But if the team were to pay him a salary of $800,000, all $800,000 would count against the cap.

Brown is probably holding out for something over the minimum -- say, a signing bonus of $400K and a salary of $750,000, or maybe more. But the Redskins need him to come all the way down to a flat $750,000 in order to get the salary cap rebate that would enable Brown's salary to count only $450K against the cap.

Meanwhile, rookie minimum salaries are $225K, 2nd year players $300K, and 3rd year players $375K. The team and Helton were probably hoping they could get something to work without shelling out the approx. $1M against the cap it will probably take to sign Brown.

While I think I understand the team's reasoning, I also think it was foolhardy. With *two* question marks at guard, the team needed to bite the bullet and sign Brown months ago. Now Brown's price is rising, and that's predictable.

[bulldog]

if Brown had come in for a workout and looked good, the Skins could and should have offered him a contract with a small bonus for 2002.

as long as it is a one year deal and we aren't committing ourselves to a future payout it seems reasonable to pay Brown.

the funny thing is some of the other guards we have considered are either old and injured (Glenn Parker) or are just not true starting caliber material (Brad Badger and already signed David Loverne and Kipp Vickers).

you can't tell me that in a single offseason Brown's skills have deteriorated so much that he isn't a better option than these clowns :laugh:

even 40 year old Lomas Brown who is a shell of the player he was even 3 or 4 years ago, has found a new home.

that's how starved teams are for players on the OL.

and contrary to popular belief it does take a while for a line to come together and play well.

last year it took until Coleman and Szott were here 5 weeks before we got our first good performance from the OL in terms of run and pass blocking.

let's not make the same mistake this time around.

enough of the merry-go-round, let's get down to business

[matty dread]

Originally posted by Cskin

The thing is, no other team signed Brown the day he hit the waiver wire either. Everyone seems to think it's all the F.O.'s fault. Could it be that, eventhough Brown said he wanted to sign with the Redskins, that his salary demands were not proportionate to a 39 year old one time Pro Bowler? And, might we be better served to find a younger, more athletic guard to acquire and build around than a 40 something guard with obviously declining skills?

Until we learn the salary demands and the Redskins stance on the matter...... let's quit speculating. Plus, I'm happy with the progress of Ross Tucker at one of the guard spots. He's young and has the heart to play this game.

I hear what you're saying, but the Skins have been in need of interior lineman since the draft, and little has been done to bring in a proven guy like Brown. The Skins aren't in the position to be picky about who they sign on the O-line. What amazes me is rumors about Glenn Parker keep popping up more frequently than Brown. Parker is a shell of his former self, has numerous nagging injuries and himself has admitted he probably needs to retire. Meanwhile there is Ray Brown, coming off a Pro Bowl season, a guy who can probably still play at a high level for one more season. Granted he is 39, but he is in much better condition than Parker, that's for sure.

I think the Skins have held off on signing someone in hopes that somebody younger with more promise would have hit the wire by now, or they were hoping to work a trade for someone like Gandy. But it's time to realize Brown is the best option out there, he has been all along.

[gamecockskins]

I think Ray Brown would give us some great veteren leadership as well on the line. Our line is really yound and brown could help the other guards get better.

[matty dread]

Hey bulldog, looks like we were thinking the same thing at about the same time, pretty funny

[MRMADD]

Ray Brown or no Ray Brown, the Skins have glaring holes on the OL that aren't going to be filled by the current cast of characters on the roster.

The OL is the weakest link on the team, and opposing defenses will know it. They'll scheme ways to blow up the middle and get to our lead-footed QBs.

And one injury to either tackle would be disasterous.

Ray Brown is 39. He's looking for one last paycheck. He's hardly the 'missing link' in our OL.

At some point very, very soon the Skins will have to bite the bullet and acquire a couple of guards. Why not dangle some of our 3rd - 7th round picks next year for a guard? How 'bout our 3rd and 4th for Gandy, and sign Brown? Even that is a pretty pitiful solution.

Seems like we go through this every year. We don't address the interior line through the draft, and everyone says, "Oh, it's easy to find guards in FA." Well, it isn't. We've been trying for years.

No matter what happens at this point, the Skins will enter the season with a patchwork offensive line, anchored by a couple of stud tackles, and pray that no injuries occur. The OL on opening day may not have even played together in the preseason. This is just ridiculous. Everyone talks about how the OL needs to 'jell' in order to play well together, and every year we throw together an OL at the last minute and then play musical chairs all season as our newly acquired guards either flail around miserably or get injured.

I know you can't have everything. No team has stars at every position. But if you don't have stars, you could at least have continuity -- decent players who know each other and the scheme. Instead, the Skins have been plugging journeymen into the line for one-season stints for years now! Adding Ray Brown is just the latest version: adding a 39-year-old guard that you know you'll have to replace next year is just brilliant. But, of course, the Skins have very few options at this point.

Remember how Gardener said that all three LBs are gonna owe him a Rolex when they make the Pro Bowl? Well, the OL will owe Davis and Woeful an APOLOGY instead.

Work on that 3-step drop, Danny.

[OrangeSkin]

We SHOULD be seeking a trade for a younger guard. Brown is old, and I don't think anybody believes that he's going to play for 10 more years. No other teams have showed a huge amount of interest in Brown, and he won't rush into any offers in the next week.

Learning the offense isn't a problem. Steve has said that the blocking schemes aren't that complicated, and as you recall, Szott came in last year and started right away.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

We SHOULD be seeking a trade for a younger guard. Brown is old, and I don't think anybody believes that he's going to play for 10 more years.

We don't need him to play for 10 years. We need him to play for one year.

In the next offseason, the team won't have 1/4 the personnel holes it had last offseason. The team can work on the interior OL and possibly the DL (depending on how Gardener, Cowsette and Jackson work out, and depending on whether Gardner re-signs), and that's about it, aside from re-signing expiring contracts. This is very doable next offseason.

[bulldog]

and just who are you going to bring in OrangeSkin? and at what cost?

are you going to trade a #2 or #3 pick to the Raiders for Mo Collins?

are you going to go ahead and trade a middle pick to the Bears for Gandy even though he is hurting?

are you going to trade a choice for Badger or Spears or Ackerman, all guys we could have had for nothing in free agency a few months ago?

it all boils down to what is best for NOW at OG. We are not going to find a 5 year solution at guard this late in the game unless we are willing to part with some of our future in next year's draft.

And when there are some players out there who can fill in and get the job done for one year, I don't see the reason to give up those picks.

We have been burned too many times in the past giving up picks for scrubs who don't turn out to be of much value.

Remember the #7 pick for Joe Zelenka? the #6 for Barron Tanner? the #6 for Tito Paul?

Those kinds of moves for waiver wire talent left us with few choices in recent years.

Remember 2001 when we only had 5 draft choices?

You don't build depth getting that few cracks at the younger talent.

This year the team was starting to get smart and amass draft picks for future growth. We ended up with 10 picks.

And a lot of those selections are going to provide depth for us in 2002 at key spots and probably challenge for starting time in the next couple of years.

[Sailor]

Just to beat a dead horse a little more, can anyone guess where Brandt fit into all of this? Is it possible that the FO dragged their feet because they expected Brandt to be a starter at guard? If I remember right, Marty had him start one game and then buried him on the bench after Coleman's knee got better.

Could Brandt have been a guy they were counting on to start?

[bulldog]

I don't think so. At least not for 2002. I think Brandt was slated to be the primary backup to Moore for this season and I would hazard a guess that perhaps the team intended for Brandt to take over the center spot in 2003 and see Moore shift back to guard.

It was eerie that we didn't hear much about Brandt during the minicamps or the leadup to training camp so I think there may have been some awareness on the part of the team that David might have been looking to exit the NFL.

Perhaps the Skins persuaded him to give it another shot but he just decided that first day of camp that he didn't have anything left to give the team?

[redman]

I'm glad someone brought up Brandt because he unfortunately left us in the lurch in many respects. We have no depth at center and no starter at either guard spot. Those are precisely the positions that he would have been competing for. We of course haven't been helped by Jones' lackluster performance at guard, and injuries to Loverne and Vickers that have limited their playing time. But I would have felt a lot better about us with Brandt in the mix there.

BTW- while a line does need time to gel, the fact is that last year our guards required until around week 5 to be effective because:

1) Szott was effectively called out of retirement in mid-August by Marty and required until week 5 to get in shape and add weight to his body (ironically); and

2) Coleman was fighting a (knee?) injury during the early part of the year.

The bottom line is that you can have a vet come in and contribute more or less immediately. I wouldn't expect that from a younger guy like Gandy though, even ignoring his injury questions.

[NavyDave]

All this shows is that we should have drafted O line help like Gurode or Hutchinson last year.

If we had drafted Hutchinson he would be our starting left guard and we'd still have D Mac and D Thompson to man WR spots and if we went with Gurode this year we'd have the right guard or center spot plugged with Sage getting the extra year to master the fun and gun.

Oh well thats how it goes and I wont be surprised if the people sniveling about picking up table scraps that fell on the floor as far as remaining guards are concerned will be screaming that we need a speedy wideout than lineman

So I guess we do the typical patch job for the season again then in the upcoming draft find another lame reason not to draft a blue chip guard in the first two rounds again.