Ramsey - what if?

[Jumbo]

BTW guys <318 & TD >, I actually enjoyed your dialogue :laugh:

[318 SKIN]

Ahhh, some people. First there was the original endless back n forth after Chicago. That part, while more than tiresome after the first few weeks, was understandable. Then at four and five wins we were getting all the "ok I'll eat crow i was soooooo wrong" from media and fans, except for the those secretly hoping for disaster so they could revive their life-sustaining topic-of-woe or so stubborn they never admit to coming up short once they've waved it in the air.

Now it's back to the same ole PR-MB :puke:, and to what purpose? A lot of people who are screaming for the heads of guys (even if they might usually play well) when they screw up, are yet solidly behind another guy (who I really like) who gets more excuses made and slack cut for him than I've ever seen. And yet this guy (who i really like) is arguably the biggest dissapointment-vs-hype (oooo look what he said!) we've had in the last four years (if they applied the same standards).

You wanna talk about nuts? It's not an actual diagnosis, but is sure qualifies on the street-level.

I've waited for PR to be what we thought and hoped he could be since the beginning. I wanted so BAD for PR to be the guy who led us. It PISSED me off when HE LET Brunell get the job. He had the chance again and again to play himself on the field and DIDN"T get the job done. I still love him and still wanna believe, I even still hope. But I'm not in some fantasy land about MB and the overall quality of his play this year being anything but good, nor am I interested in revisionist history as reconstructed by the reasoning-handicapped to infer PR was robbed of opportunity with this team. Jeezuz. Where's my Alka-Seltzer...sorry. :rant:

Guy I have no idea what you just said!

[318 SKIN]

BTW guys <318 & TD >, I actually enjoyed your dialogue :laugh:

Thanks, it's been fun.

[Jumbo]

Guy I have no idea what you just said!

:laugh: That's cool. Maybe it does require some effort and it was just a vent. I was talking about the revival of the whole PR-MB debate, the monster-that-will-not-die. The guy I alluded to in the second paragraph is PR, and the double-standards people employ was another item in there.

Really, I don't think it's that indecipherable, but maybe it is.

[318 SKIN]

I think the great thing about this board is it gives all of us the chance to vent.

One thing I did not get was your comment that PR has had his chance again and again to play is way on the field. If i'm not mistaken he played pretty well over the last 7 games last year. I don't think you play your way out after 3 series this year!

[redskin81]

If Ramsey was there we wouldn't have anything to complain as we would have been 2-9 and nothing to complain after all...

LOL

[skinpride1]

I hate to say this but with the protection that the skins gave brunell and he didn't get much done in the second half,I think ramsey would have tore the chargers secondary apart!!!!

[skinpride1]

I also thinks that it is unfair to bash a guy who never had a chance to prove himself.I still think it sucks when he got close lined inside the bears 20 yard line, and gibbs yanked him out like that!!!!!

[Joncevensen]

to be quite honest i have said to my self that if we won i would keep my mouth shut about the treatment ramsey got cuz i loved the redskins more then i did PR, it wouldnt hurt to up the practice reps for ramsey cuz the defense's r going to come at brunell in the next couple of weeks with a ferociousness we cant even imagine considering we will be on the road. and brunell cant get up every time his hit at his age

[fpickering]

Please. Hasselbeck can see the field. Hasselbeck can make something happen when plays break down. Hasselbeck doesn't panic when his primary read is covered and routinely make bad decisions. Hasselbeck can throw lasers and with touch. Ramsey has shown that he has huge heart and a big arm, but that's about it.

I will be the first to admit that I did not think that Brunell would be able to play at this level this season based on what I saw last year. In fact, I still do not know why he has improved so much. Was he injured? He says he was not. Was it the Improved O line? The addition of Santana Moss? A combination of all of these factors?

I am not saying that Ramsey should be starting by any means but I think that he has the potential to be as sucessful as Matt Hasselbeck. This is why:

Hasselbeck played in 13 games in his first significant season (2001) and threw for 2023 yards and a 54.8 completion percentage, 7 TDs and 8 INTs.

Ramsey played in two less games in his first significant season (2003) and threw for 2166 yards and a 53.1 completion percentage, 14 TDs and 9 INTs.

As you can see, Ramsey was the more effective QB. The most notable thing here is that Ramsey's perfomance declined the following season coming off the bench in relief of a struggling Brunell while Hasselbeck's flourished.

Of course, there was a major difference between the two situations. Seattle did not bring in a veteran QB and pay him a large sum of money with full intentions to start him. I know that our coaches said that it would be an open competition but this just does not jive with many due to the fact that we traded away a draft choice and paid him an immense amount of money.

Had Seattle done the same thing and halted Hasselbeck's development and shattered his confidence after he had legitimately won the job, I wonder what would have happened to him.

I think that we should reserve judgement on Ramsey until he truly gets the full commitment and backing from an organization.

[Jumbo]

I think the great thing about this board is it gives all of us the chance to vent.

One thing I did not get was your comment that PR has had his chance again and again to play is way on the field. If i'm not mistaken he played pretty well over the last 7 games last year. I don't think you play your way out after 3 series this year!

well, 318, I think therein lies the heart of the matter. no matter how many times that many different people go through such exchanges the words and points seem to vanish as though never written.

my reluctant interpretation of reality <not being sarcastic> includes all of PR's time here, and in total context, stats, x-faxtors, and all. And then, more specifically in 2004, and that season's total context, followed by 2005's total context including OTAs, practices, pre-season games, and first three series of our opening game, and the stats and all other factors.

PR was handed the job at the end of 2004, supposedly ending the last obstcale of being in doubt as to his status. But it was up to him to cement it in the practices and pre-season games. His legacy did not allow him the luxury of looking so-so while his veteran "#2" guy looked notably superior. It was not a case where because of an undeniable history of great performances, and lack of competition from your back-up, you keep the job no matter what.

Yet even after all the signs during those three off season months, Gibbs still waited for the actual game to see what would happen. And he waived the first time/series results even after all these cumulative factors pressed him. And he waived the results of the second series. When it happened the third time in the first quarter...he gave in. That's what I mean about PR not stepping up and letting his on-the-field play end any discussions. That off-season and preseason WERE the time and the place to build credibility. And then the very last chance (as starter) was those first three sorties into actual combat for a new season.

When Joe gave in, I too found the choice clear, if unwanted.

You take the same overall history and arrive at a different perspective. I apprecaite that, and the manner in which you do it is one I salute. You would (I'm sure ) explain it well and articulately. We seem to be able to reasonably communicate and respect each other (not common with this topic) though we each will continue to remain where we are. That is the nature of this issue at its best. At its worst, its just unending and ugly. The good news is neither of us fall into the PR, MB, or Gibbs bashing over this matter. Here's to our mutual best interests

[six4g]

The never ending debate continues. Might as well join in once again. Maybe with a bit of a different twist this time.

To start; the one thing that has brought about the downfall of this organization over the years has been a lack of commitment to a QB. Not since Rypien have we been committed to a QB, or had a real winner. Then again, I'm missing the one other instance, when we had Brad Johnson. Yep, made the playoffs and then we decided he wasn't good enough and had to play Jeff George. We've had one QB have consecutive 300 yard passing days since Rypien; guess who? Patrick Ramsey.

Someone said in this thread that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Brunnell is what he is. his best days are in the past. Yes we enjoyed a brief revival of sorts, but I firmly believe that we all were holding our breaths and wondering just how long it would last. Welcome back to the reality of having a 35 year old QB.

(Truth is it was more a revival of Santanna Moss. Its like we had our own Moss ratio in effect. Brunnells success is directly tied to how many times he threw to Santanna. I can say that because up until this week he hasn't thrown to anyone else.)

I hear everyone saying lets put the rookie in. There's this thing that comes with rookies playing; its called a learning curve. Its going to take time for him to get a grasp on how things work on this level. He's going to need consistent playing time to play through 1st and second year dumb*** mistakes that he's going to make. I think any QB needs to play at least a complete season and a half to get the rythm of the game. (Big Ben is a fluke)

Jason Cambell will hopefully be a good QB. But I honestly believe that we have a franchise QB on the roster already. A QB who has proven that he can light up just about any team in this league when he's on.

Which brings me to PR. He has yet to play a full season from start to finish.

- In and out of lineup in rookie season

- Injured foot midway through 2003 season ( probably played 4or5 with injury. Hasn't gotten that Brunnell benefit of the doubt for injury yet)

- didn't start until week 10.

To sum it all up, the kid hasn't had the opportunity to be "THE QB", and play through the mistakes that most starters get the opportunity to. Allow a young quarterback to learn through his mistakes. Commit to him and surround him with quality players. That's how you build a consistent winner. Look to the Steelers if you need a blueprint.

[Oldfan]

318 SKIN,

for the team's sake, I'd like to see Campbell start if and when we suffer seven losses this season. Joe Gibbs has invested heavily in the kid and I'd like to see him get a couple of low pressure games under his belt against NFL competition.

For Ramsey's sake, I want to see him traded into a better situation.

When I first saw Patrick on the field, I told my wife that, with the right coaching and a good supporting cast, he would rewrite the Redskin's record books for QBs. He never had that opportunity.

I'm convinced that the Shotgun Spread will soon make its move from the colleges to the pros as a primary weapon. Ramsey would be fun to watch running it with a talented bunch of receivers.

[fansince62]

"How do you know? No one.. Not one of you can say this for certain. In all honesty we can't even begin to imagine because he was yanked quicker then a rotten tooth.

Brunell Struggled in that game as well, in the limited action Ramsey struggled too, so we can't know for sure what would have happened. Ramsey could have lit up the league this year, or sucked, we don't know."

not so. folks seem to forget that PR played miserably during preseason. JG left him in games much longer than usual to try and get things jumpstarted and he didn't produce. of course, this was all the offense's fault and not PR's! Either he leads the O or he doesn't. and he didn't - his audition did not go well and that's why he was moved to the nether regions of the bench. JG knew exactly what he was doing - and why.

[skinsdude]

Under Gibbs:

Patrick 4-4 as a starter

Brunnell - 8-11 including 5-6 this year with a so called much improved team.

Gibbs has said a number of times that we are better prepared from a coaching staff and we have better players for the system. What do we have to show for all this a 5-6 record. At the end of the day I could give a rip if we are 7-9 or 6-10 if we don't make the playoffs. If we don't make the playoffs I would have liked to know exactly what we have in Patrick.

I hope that you are not suggesting that we are not a much improved team. Our offense is better than it has been in several years. We haven't had an offense that can score 25-30 points a game. We have lost one game this year by more than a touchdown. We have been competetive in every game that we played except for the Giants. Our current record is not indicative of the way that our offense has played. Again, without Mark Brunnel at QB our offense would not have been as productive as it is. If your suggesting that we may have won a couple of those games that we lost by a touchdown or less with Patrick at the helm; well I just don't buy it. I have seen Patrick play in person at every home game that he has played in and I see nothing to suggest that he would have played better than Mark.

[Jumbo]

"How do you know? No one.. Not one of you can say this for certain. In all honesty we can't even begin to imagine because he was yanked quicker then a rotten tooth.

Brunell Struggled in that game as well, in the limited action Ramsey struggled too, so we can't know for sure what would have happened. Ramsey could have lit up the league this year, or sucked, we don't know."

not so. folks seem to forget that PR played miserably during preseason. JG left him in games much longer than usual to try and get things jumpstarted and he didn't produce. of course, this was all the offense's fault and not PR's! Either he leads the O or he doesn't. and he didn't - his audition did not go well and that's why he was moved to the nether regions of the bench. JG knew exactly what he was doing - and why.

I did go back to Bulgaria, and they sadly agreed, they love PR too, but he didn't earn the field, bad circumstances (over & over again) and all.