Ramsey - what if?

[Oldfan]

It's not tough to understand what you're presenting, I just disagree with it. Good players shine through. I'm not saying that Patrick should have single-handedly won us games, but it should have been evident to football evaluators that he was a viable option at QB.

Peyton Manning showed plenty before the Colts became a good team.

The list of QBs, some in the Hall of Fame (Bradshaw, Unitas), whose careers prove you wrong is as long as your arm.

How do you know that Ramsey's talents aren't appreciated by some "football evaluators?" I doubt that GMs around the league are united in the belief that "Joe knows best."

[318 SKIN]

The list of QBs, some in the Hall of Fame (Bradshaw, Unitas), whose careers prove you wrong is as long as your arm.

How do you know that Ramsey's talents aren't appreciated by some "football evaluators?" I doubt that GMs around the league are united in the belief that "Joe knows best."

I guess the proof about football evaluators will come after the season and we discover if there are any takers for PR

[318 SKIN]

Would we throw out the records if Brunnell was 8-2, doubtful so why throw out the records when the record is not what you want it to be

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The list of QBs, some in the Hall of Fame (Bradshaw, Unitas), whose careers prove you wrong is as long as your arm.

How do you know that Ramsey's talents aren't appreciated by some "football evaluators?" I doubt that GMs around the league are united in the belief that "Joe knows best."

How do you know that I don't have knubs for arms?? :laugh:

Listen, I disagree with you. It's OK!

I believe that if Ramsey were going to be anything special (ie. someone worth sacrificing current season wins in order for him to develop), he'd have shown it by now. You think he's still that guy. That's fine.

In my opinion, all the opportunities that I've listed earlier in this thread should be more than enough for a franchise-type QB to prove himself to his coaching staff. It hasn't been.

I was biased coming into this season. I wanted our team to have its QB of the future under center for the 2005 season. It was obvious to the objective eye that Ramsey was an inferior QB to Brunell from day 1 of the preseason. Whatever caused that, I don't know and don't really care. I changed my mind because I wanted the best player to lead us at that position.

Anyway, we can disagree, that's fine. I just don't see the pro-Ramsey position as all that strong. All you guys can throw out are some circumstantial events that might be responsible for explaining why Ramsey has struggled so much over his first 4 seasons.

[Oldfan]

As much sense as any you've heard? Then this is a lost cause.

You don't think it's a valid argument to say that PR could have easily taken the bull by the horns over the past 4 years? That seems a bit unreasonable.

No. I don't think it's a valid argument. What exactly does "take the bull by the horn" mean? What was he supposed to do?

Ramsey has played in...what...23 games for Spurrier, whose offense resembled a Chinese fire drill and Gibbs whose 2004 offense couldn't get out of the gate until the last five games. And when it did Ramsey performed well. Gibbs said so.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Would we throw out the records if Brunnell was 8-2, doubtful so why throw out the records when the record is not what you want it to be

No we wouldn't. And I'm not saying they should be thrown out at all. I'm just saying that they don't show the whole story. You're showing a statistic that helps your case even though it's not reflective of your argument.

Let me put it to you this way...do you think QB is the reason we're 5-6 this season?

Or this...we're 5-6 so why is Marcus Washington playing over his backup?? I mean, forget that he plays well most weeks, he's obviously not getting the job done if we're not happy with the record, right?

[redskin81]

What if this was the last thread we ever had about this subject.

[Doctor ToughLove]

One quarter, with all the turnovers blamed on him and no mention of his production? That was his fair opportunity?

Well, I must admit...your answer makes as much sense as any I've heard.

Well that is all it is for me. I like Ramsey and would like him to stay with the team. And I wouldn't put it past Gibbs to pull it off (though most would probably say that is not likely).

But I would be interested in QBs who start the season coughing up the ball three times in row who haven't been benched. (isn't all "production" negated when you cough up the ball?)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

No. I don't think it's a valid argument. What exactly does "take the bull by the horn" mean? What was he supposed to do?

Ramsey has played in...what...23 games for Spurrier, whose offense resembled a Chinese fire drill and Gibbs whose 2004 offense couldn't get out of the gate until the last five games. And when it did Ramsey performed well. Gibbs said so.

Actions speak louder than words. Of course Gibbs said so...he said Brunell played fine in the first 9 games last year...we know that was BS. I think Patrick played well last year too, but the staff had to see something pretty significant to change their stripes after one offseason and preseason.

As for "take the bull by the horns" what I mean is this: Patrick Ramsey has had numerous opportunities (the last of which was this offseason and preseason) to establish himself as the starting QB of the Washington Redskins. He's failed to do so. He's been in unfortunate situations, sure. However, players can still show that the job belongs to them despite bad circumstances.

If everything needs to be perfect for a QB to succeed, I don't want him as my QB. Things break down in games and players need to be able to adjust when they do. If Ramsey needs an entire city behind him with no adversity just to be confident enough to make plays as our starter, what is he going to do in a big game when we're down 14-0?

[318 SKIN]

So in the end if we go 8/8 and miss the playoffs we will come away knowing that we have 35 y/o QB that will lead to a very avg year. I'm sorry, but I thot we knew that going in.

FYI - this is PR's 4th season, i'm not sure 3 series counts as given him his 4th year. What if they would have said the same thing about Brees.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

So in the end if we go 8/8 and miss the playoffs we will come away knowing that we have 35 y/o QB that will lead to a very avg year. I'm sorry, but I thot we knew that going in.

FYI - this is PR's 4th season, i'm not sure 3 series counts as given him his 4th year. What if they would have said the same thing about Brees.

Or a veteran QB who has proven that he can play well enough to win most games. Nothing is saying Brunell can't play next year and we can't improve as a team and be in the playoffs next year.

Anyway, I realize I won't convince you and OldFan of my line of thinking and that's OK. I just want you guys to see another point of view.

I see what you guys are saying. If we had a magic crystal ball and knew we'd be 5-6 after week 11, would we still decide to go with the old guy. Probably not. If Gibbs truly knew this was a throw-away year, he'd probably have played Ramsey or Campbell.

But as a coach, you can't ever assume that a season is a waste. And, he got good enough play from his QB to be a playoff team. We have failed in other areas which has hurt us (OL, closing games, defensive breakdowns, etc.).

[318 SKIN]

No we wouldn't. And I'm not saying they should be thrown out at all. I'm just saying that they don't show the whole story. You're showing a statistic that helps your case even though it's not reflective of your argument.

Let me put it to you this way...do you think QB is the reason we're 5-6 this season?

Or this...we're 5-6 so why is Marcus Washington playing over his backup?? I mean, forget that he plays well most weeks, he's obviously not getting the job done if we're not happy with the record, right?

Offensivey we are not getting the job done, period. Last 5 games Brunnell has been very much a part of why we are 5-6. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier Mark does not throw picks, but for all the wrong reasons. Before Patton got hurt all you heard was Patton sucks, he is a waste. What is a #2's job - take the pressure away from your #1. During the preseason and in the Bears game I did not hear anyone complaining about Patton. Most of his routes were deep middle which requires a tight throw - this is a throw Mark can't make. Defensive cordinators know this and encourage him make the throw. Had Mark completed that throw to Thash down the middle at the goal line (way underthrown) we win the Bucs game. What about the pass interference call on Jacobs that should have been picked. I bet D cordinators see the same things and say, "lets make them bet us throwing the ball down the middle of the field".

So you say Mark's not responsible and that we would be worse off with Patrick. Honestly, ask yourself this - does Patrick make that throw to Thrash? And if your answer is yes then there is 1 won or 1 lose directly attributed to the QB. If you don't think Patrick could make that throw then I guess we really are going know where.

[SkinFromNepal]

If Ramsey was there we wouldn't have anything to complain as we would have been 2-9 and nothing to complain after all...

[Oldfan]

Or a veteran QB who has proven that he can play well enough to win most games. Nothing is saying Brunell can't play next year and we can't improve as a team and be in the playoffs next year.

Anyway, I realize I won't convince you and OldFan of my line of thinking and that's OK. I just want you guys to see another point of view.

I see what you guys are saying. If we had a magic crystal ball and knew we'd be 5-6 after week 11, would we still decide to go with the old guy. Probably not. If Gibbs truly knew this was a throw-away year, he'd probably have played Ramsey or Campbell.

But as a coach, you can't ever assume that a season is a waste. And, he got good enough play from his QB to be a playoff team. We have failed in other areas which has hurt us (OL, closing games, defensive breakdowns, etc.).

I personally think that a healthy Mark Brunell would prove a tad better than Ramsey given the same scheme. But I would have started Ramsey expecting improvement with each start and a long career with the Redskins.

So far, we have spent two years proving that Mark can still play (he's really good when Santana isn't double covered) but he isn't good enough to get us to the playoffs.

The objective of the offense is to score points. We have some gaudy stats this year, but we've averaged 16.5 points against teams not from San Francisco.

[318 SKIN]

Or a veteran QB who has proven that he can play well enough to win most games. Nothing is saying Brunell can't play next year and we can't improve as a team and be in the playoffs next year.

Anyway, I realize I won't convince you and OldFan of my line of thinking and that's OK. I just want you guys to see another point of view.

I see what you guys are saying. If we had a magic crystal ball and knew we'd be 5-6 after week 11, would we still decide to go with the old guy. Probably not. If Gibbs truly knew this was a throw-away year, he'd probably have played Ramsey or Campbell.

But as a coach, you can't ever assume that a season is a waste. And, he got good enough play from his QB to be a playoff team. We have failed in other areas which has hurt us (OL, closing games, defensive breakdowns, etc.).

He is 5-6 this year as a starter - my math says thats not winning most games. That's losing most games!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Offensivey we are not getting the job done, period. Last 5 games Brunnell has been very much a part of why we are 5-6. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier Mark does not throw picks, but for all the wrong reasons. Before Patton got hurt all you heard was Patton sucks, he is a waste. What is a #2's job - take the pressure away from your #1. During the preseason and in the Bears game I did not hear anyone complaining about Patton. Most of his routes were deep middle which requires a tight throw - this is a throw Mark can't make. Defensive cordinators know this and encourage him make the throw. Had Mark completed that throw to Thash down the middle at the goal line (way underthrown) we win the Bucs game. What about the pass interference call on Jacobs that should have been picked. I bet D cordinators see the same things and say, "lets make them bet us throwing the ball down the middle of the field".

So you say Mark's not responsible and that we would be worse off with Patrick. Honestly, ask yourself this - does Patrick make that throw to Thrash? And if your answer is yes then there is 1 won or 1 lose directly attributed to the QB. If you don't think Patrick could make that throw then I guess we really are going know where.

I'm not so sure it's as simple as isolating one play that Brunell missed. Let's forget for a minute that the play you're describing would have been nullified by a penalty (I think it was illegal formation) making this whole exercise null and void. But here goes...

First of all, you're assuming Brunell is incapable of making that throw when he's completed similar passes this season. Secondly, you're assuming that IF he's incapable of making that throw, Ramsey is equal or better than Brunell at every other aspect of the game. What I mean is...let's say MB always misses that pass and PR always hits it. That's great, but does Ramsey make the plays with his feet that Brunell has or make some of the good decisions he's made this year?

I know Ramsey can make that throw. What I don't know is if he'd have actually read the D and made it. I know Brunell can make that throw because he's made it before in games this year. Do you really want me to point out particular plays that Mark has made this year and ask you if Ramsey could make them?? I'm not sure what that proves.

[318 SKIN]

TD - did not mean to be a smart A$$. Your right we have had many breakdowns that Mark has certainly be affected by. Especially the O-line!

[318 SKIN]

I'm not so sure it's as simple as isolating one play that Brunell missed. Let's forget for a minute that the play you're describing would have been nullified by a penalty (I think it was illegal formation) making this whole exercise null and void. But here goes...

First of all, you're assuming Brunell is incapable of making that throw when he's completed similar passes this season. Secondly, you're assuming that IF he's incapable of making that throw, Ramsey is equal or better than Brunell at every other aspect of the game. What I mean is...let's say MB always misses that pass and PR always hits it. That's great, but does Ramsey make the plays with his feet that Brunell has or make some of the good decisions he's made this year?

I know Ramsey can make that throw. What I don't know is if he'd have actually read the D and made it. I know Brunell can make that throw because he's made it before in games this year. Do you really want me to point out particular plays that Mark has made this year and ask you if Ramsey could make them?? I'm not sure what that proves.

Not the play to Thrash. The play to Jacobs yes.......

[TD_washingtonredskins]

He is 5-6 this year as a starter - my math says thats not winning most games. That's losing most games!

I understand that. However, I would contend that Brunell played well enough to win against Denver, KC, and TB. I realize he made plays that helped lead to losses, but no one said he was perfect. He did enough in those games for our team to win if other aspects didn't break down around him.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

TD - did not mean to be a smart A$$. Your right we have had many breakdowns that Mark has certainly be affected by. Especially the O-line!

I know you're not...I'm not taking offense to anything you're saying bro. Just a good old debate going here!

[318 SKIN]

I'm not so sure it's as simple as isolating one play that Brunell missed. Let's forget for a minute that the play you're describing would have been nullified by a penalty (I think it was illegal formation) making this whole exercise null and void. But here goes...

First of all, you're assuming Brunell is incapable of making that throw when he's completed similar passes this season. Secondly, you're assuming that IF he's incapable of making that throw, Ramsey is equal or better than Brunell at every other aspect of the game. What I mean is...let's say MB always misses that pass and PR always hits it. That's great, but does Ramsey make the plays with his feet that Brunell has or make some of the good decisions he's made this year?

I know Ramsey can make that throw. What I don't know is if he'd have actually read the D and made it. I know Brunell can make that throw because he's made it before in games this year. Do you really want me to point out particular plays that Mark has made this year and ask you if Ramsey could make them?? I'm not sure what that proves.

Here's what i'm saying, it's not a coincedence that Moss has been less of a factor over the past 5 or 6 games. It's also not surprising that we really can't run the ball. It has been repeated time and time again that D's are game planning by bring a safey over the top to take away Moss and there cheating there SS in to stop the run. They can do this because they have no fear of Mark being able to beat them down the middle of the field. Where have our #2's been?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Here's what i'm saying, it's not a coincedence that Moss has been less of a factor over the past 5 or 6 games. It's also not surprising that we really can't run the ball. It has been repeated time and time again that D's are game planning by bring a safey over the top to take away Moss and there cheating there SS in to stop the run. They can do this because they have no fear of Mark being able to beat them down the middle of the field. Where have our #2's been?

Wow, this really just turned into a dialogue between you and me huh? Why don't we just exchange phone numbers... :laugh:

I hear what you're saying...and I honestly don't know. I haven't re-watched any games or anything to see what might be open over the middle that we're not throwing. Maybe you're right. I don't really recall us missing too many times over the middle...but I could just be forgetting. It doesn't seem as though we attack it too often, and maybe that's your point.

In summary, I don't presume to know enough to defend why Brunell doesn't hit or attempt those passes. Maybe it is his weakness and has been exposed. I honestly have to tip my cap to you on that one...

[318 SKIN]

TD - You know whats crazy? I really like Mark and know that Patrick does also. I also believe that Patrick will be in another city next and will do well partly because he had a chance to sit and watch a very good veteren manage a game. Something I wish he had a chance to do his 1st 3yrs.

Dude I have to take a break - keep things hooping and i'll check in later......

[TD_washingtonredskins]

TD - You know whats crazy? I really like Mark and know that Patrick does also. I also believe that Patrick will be in another city next and will do well partly because he had a chance to sit and watch a very good veteren manage a game. Something I wish he had a chance to do his 1st 3yrs.

Dude I have to take a break - keep things hoping and i'll check in later......

Same here actually...I will be back tomorrow though...

And I do appreciate that our 2 QBs have been there for one another. It's a tough job when you're benched for another guy, but neither one of them showed anything but genuine happiness when the other one has done well.

Have a good one...I'll turn you to the dark side tomorrow!

[Jumbo]

For months, given how quickly things changed once the season started, we've heard people suggest that Gibbs somehow did Patrick wrong by making it clear he was the designated starter all off season.

I've always wondered if, had Gibbs NOT done that, those same people would have criticized him for not "backing Patirck up" or not "showing confidence in him" or "allowing him to not look over his shoulder" and get comfortable with this role?

Rhetorical questions, yes. But good ones.

Ahhh, some people. First there was the original endless back n forth after Chicago. That part, while more than tiresome after the first few weeks, was understandable. Then at four and five wins we were getting all the "ok I'll eat crow i was soooooo wrong" from media and fans, except for the those secretly hoping for disaster so they could revive their life-sustaining topic-of-woe or so stubborn they never admit to coming up short once they've waved it in the air.

Now it's back to the same ole PR-MB :puke:, and to what purpose? A lot of people who are screaming for the heads of guys (even if they might usually play well) when they screw up, are yet solidly behind another guy (who I really like) who gets more excuses made and slack cut for him than I've ever seen. And yet this guy (who i really like) is arguably the biggest dissapointment-vs-hype (oooo look what he said!) we've had in the last four years (if they applied the same standards).

You wanna talk about nuts? It's not an actual diagnosis, but is sure qualifies on the street-level.

I've waited for PR to be what we thought and hoped he could be since the beginning. I wanted so BAD for PR to be the guy who led us. It PISSED me off when HE LET Brunell get the job. He had the chance again and again to play himself on the field and DIDN"T get the job done. I still love him and still wanna believe, I even still hope. But I'm not in some fantasy land about MB and the overall quality of his play this year being anything but good, nor am I interested in revisionist history as reconstructed by the reasoning-handicapped to infer PR was robbed of opportunity with this team. Jeezuz. Where's my Alka-Seltzer...sorry. :rant: