wit33

Just now, DogofWar1 said:

Twitter is an absolute cesspool.

 

 

342k views so far for a random rumor based on nothing.

Let’s goooo! Good post. 

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah this is just getting weird. It's like talking about a baseball prospect and touting how good he is at hitting home runs when there's plenty of data which directly indicates that's something he actually kind of sucks at. And then touting that player over another guy who actually does hit home runs.

 

Is there a possibility that off-platform throwing is being conflated with the ability to throw outside the pocket or on the run? I've seen numerous throws of him delivering while on the move from outside the pocket. I'm trying to bridge a disconnect here.

I agree that he doesn't utilize off-platform throws much and lacks creativity behind the line of scrimmage when extending a play side to side. He's more of a throwback in the sense that he'll sprint or drift to the sideline rather than dance around to buy time. Hes more deliberate in his movements and choices when extending plays it seems; wants to leverage his elite burst and great speed whenever possible. 

19 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Young was not a dual threat QB.  He was the epitome of a WCO drop back QB.

 

Those Buccaneers highlights though 😳

He sat behind Joe and learned from Bill for five years. 

19 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Ironically, if he played today, some bozo OC would try to use his legs more and get him killed, instead of realizing he might be one of the single smartest QBs to ever play. 
 

I remember he said he was talking to Bill Walsh at one point and said, “I can’t see the guy because of the OL.”

Imagine a bozo coach in today's game keeping him as a backup for five straight years.

19 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

However, I concede the point.  Wilson can be considered a dual threat QB, and has won 1 SB. Player in another.

 

Were now at 56-1.

 

I forgot Cam.  He played in one and lost and his career was like 5 years of good play.  

Russel belongs to us; his elite dual threat ability relative to his peers during that time was the primary reason he was able to have elite impact at times years 1-3 of his career. 

2 hours ago, woodpecker said:

good thing Joe Burrow is over there because otherwise the left side of the chart is not looking like very good company for Daniels to be in!

Joe Burrow is out to debunk the significance of this stat, particularly when it comes to third-down sacks. Forget your QB who opts for check-downs or throws low-percentage passes to single coverage to avoid a sack, or what was once deemed acceptable—consistently throwing it away on third down! 😄

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Do you know what the folks on that list all have in common?

 

Zero Superbowl appearances.  I could be wrong, but I don't think Cunningham or Vick ever got to a championship game.  Unless my memory is faulty, Lamar got to one, and lost.

 

This is the thing I keep harping on which is counter to the argument about dual-threat QBs: yes, they put defenses in a tough spot to defend them.  But the QBs who win championships control the game from inside the pocket and then have the ability to extend plays when necessary. Here are the list of SB winning QBs.  Find me ONE who was a dual threat QB. The answer is none.  What they all have is the ability to control the game from the pocket, move in the pocket when necessary, and some have a better ability to extend plays and get yards with their legs (Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Elway, Steve Young jump out as the QBs who were very athletic in extending plays and picking up yards when needed with their legs.)

 

Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs
Super Bowl 52: Nick Foles (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 53: Tom Brady (Julian Edelman), 0TDs
Super Bowl 54: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 55: Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 56: Matthew Stafford (Cooper Kupp), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 57: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 58: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 2 TDs

 

The media is fascinated with the dual threat QB.  I don't think the NFL is.  I could be wrong.  

 

Until proven otherwise, I still think you win from the pocket.  

Embrace the future; after all, guards never won NBA championships until they did.

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Daniels isn't gonna suddenly become a good slider in the NFL, and he lacks situational/spatial awareness so he'll always just be getting plastered by defenders.

It's frustrating that he can't slide; it's a significant drawback for a QB who relies on his legs. If he were able to slide, I'd have much fewer, almost no concerns about him getting seriously injured.

And it's not something that seems very easy to pick up and learn. Such a game changer if a running QB or any QB has this mastered. 

40 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I haven't been saying "Maye has no responsibility or issues with his footwork. It's all the fault of his OCs". I've been saying that having to use two different styles of drop back and footwork over his two starting years quite possibly had an effect on his footwork development and on it not being as consistent as we'd like. 

 

So I think it's likely a variety of factors, with being told to use two different types of drop back over two years being one of them. I don't think that's some crazy out of left field hypothesis.

Acknowledged, establishing it as a hypothesis is reasonable.

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I already admitted that maybe he just has bad footwork. If you can admit that maybe being coached to use completely different styles of footwork over his 2 years starting could also cause problems, then we're on the same page.

Have you delved into this to uncover any truth or insight regarding whether the styles asked him to do completely different things? What if it was actually 26.7% different and 73.3% similar footwork?
 

I'm not sure where the truth lies, but it seems like you're grasping for anything that might bolster your campaign to support Maye.

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

I watched a lot of Maye.  Among others here, I've watched a lot of QBs over the years.  And the two QBs that gave me red flags on decision making were Darnold and Rosen.  I didn't study either before the draft but did the years they were trade bait.  The thing that hit me about both was some of their decisions came off so dumb to me that i didn't believe that they saw the field well.  And plenty remember me trashing both QBs and being a loud no as for trading for them.

 

When I've watched Maye, I've seen none of that dumb style decision making.  For him, its more Favre style YOLO, where he falls in love with his ability to fit tight windows. 

 

He has a good rate of a low number of interceptable balls according to PFF. 

 

Don't get me wrong, he can improve on this front.  But IMHO when I've watched him I got zero red flags as to his decision making.  All QBs make some dumb decisions here and there.  but IMO his bad decisions are often hero ball related and that IMO is fixable.  I don't think Darnold and Rosen's decision making is fixable because it comes off to me that they don't see the field well. 

 

 

 

Absolutely love his aggressiveness, and this is a HUGE positive that I'll emphasize if he's selected. I'm all for the YOLO QB, especially if it comes with an elite arm, good size, and some ability to move around.

I just want to highlight that this is one of my favorite aspects about him and why I believe he has a chance to break free from the 70% zone of the average QB that we see each year in the NFL.
 

He also appears to believe that his aggressiveness is what sets him apart, which gives me confidence that he won't yield to coaches who try to play it safe to protect their jobs and put a governor on him.

19 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

Well I think "good place" and "easy and achievable" may not be the same thing.  I think Maye's footwork, when not running for his life, is "fine."  It could be better sure but it's not terrible, so it's a reasonable starting point.  It will be a process, but I don't think it's being built from nothing.

 

As for his willingness to learn, I think Maye will be very open to it.

 

After every missed throw during his pro day, he apparently re-ran the throw again to get it right, which is what pushed his throw total up a bit.  Generally speaking he's never come off as a diva, really none of the QBs have, but there's a clear willingness to go back and work on fixing his mistakes, which bodes well.

To be clear, many don’t ever fix this area of their game but do get to space of being able to operate an NFL offense. For example, Derek Carr (ExtremeSkins favorite), Alex Smith (MY favorite), Carson Wentz, Russel Wilson, Ryan Tannenhill, Kyler Murray all struggle to organize their feet while in the fire (the pocket). Yes, all for their own reasons, but some of these guys from afar appear to be great hard working family guys that you would think be able to “fix their mistakes”. Just random names off the top, many others.

It’s a mutha bleep to change natural patterns, processes, body mechanics when under duress. I 100% own it’s an easier journey to improve mechanics in a comfortable setting or when plays on schedule, but 85% of the NFL can do that, nothing special—that’s competence.

12 hours ago, mudhog said:

This is a point I want to address. I'm not a coach, so I don't know how easy or hard something like footwork is to fix. But I don't think it's a coincidence that both Sam Howell and Drake Maye came from the same college program into the NFL within 2 years of each other and both have almost the identical problem with footwork, drift in the pocket, throw of the back foot, heel-click, happy feet, problems as the other does.

Development definitely matters, but I speculate if you examine Drake Maye’s high school footage, you might find that he played similarly back then. I’ve never actually watched any of his high school clips, so if someone wants to prove me wrong, I’ve given them an alley-oop.
 

If a quarterback has been playing the same way from their youth until now, a lot of that behavior becomes deeply ingrained. When faced with pressure situations, they tend to resort to problem-solving strategies that have served them well throughout their football journey. It all boils down to natural inclination and relying on the physical traits they've developed over time.

12 hours ago, mudhog said:

 

Something is not being coached to these QB's at the UNC program. But you would have to have your head buried in the sand not to have heard from 60 different sources that Maye's major red flag is his footwork. You know he's heard it. And he's probably working on it as we speak. He's a very bright kid

I'd bet he's been hearing this since day one on the UNC campus—for three years straight. Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to disparage him at all.

In fact, I believe that over 90% of quarterbacks struggle to fix these types of mechanical issues when under pressure.

12 hours ago, mudhog said:

 

It's not like he can't properly drop and set, or that he's never done it. He does it quite frequently. Just not all the time. So I don't buy that a 3 month time-frame isn't an adequate amount of time to become consistent at something he does most of the time, just not all the time. 
 

The majority of NFL quarterbacks can drop back and set when the play is on time, especially if their first read is open. 
 

A three-month timeframe seems outrageous to me. Following this logic, it would imply that he should have everything fixed with the help of QBs and specialists between the end of his college season and rookie mini-camp. He might understand what he needs to work on, but expecting it to be fully addressed within just three months is unrealistic.

Just to clarify, I used to think Mahomes had terrible footwork until the past year or two. So, I believe you can still be great without having the same type of precise footwork in the pocket as Dan Marino, Tom Brady, or Jared Goff.

12 hours ago, mudhog said:

I know that I am oversimplifying this, but the guy is a competitor. He's aware of the problem and surely wants to fix it because he wants to win. Something like consistency isn't hard to teach. He can already do it. It's not new to him. Coaches need to do some in-depth drills and clinics with him. they also need to talk to him and find out what's going on in his head on some of these plays. Like 'why did you drift to the right on this play when your 1st and 2nd reads were to the left?'

It's going to be a real battle. It's not just about wanting to fix it—every QB probably wants to fix their issues. But for him, it'll likely require being extremely dedicated to the process. The wild thing is, being dedicated and committed to the process still doesn’t work in most cases. 

I'm not claiming to be an authority on this; I'm just drawing from my experience as a basketball coach and my work in behavioral health. Working through these kinds of challenges takes a lot of time and effort.

12 hours ago, mudhog said:

So much has been said about Drake's footwork, like it's this big, insurmountable thing. He can already do it. And, I'm sure that he's smart enough to see that his best games with his best completion percentages were when he limited the mental lapses with his footwork and kept his mechanics smooth.

It's definitely not insurmountable, but addressing football trauma like this will demand a significant amount of effort to establish a healthy baseline and competence in footwork. Some QBs might go on to earn hundreds of millions of dollars, start for over a decade, and be genuinely nice individuals, yet never fully transcend beyond competence. And that's not necessarily a bad thing; competence holds immense value, especially at the right price.

3 hours ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

I agree, don't see Maye's footwork as a major issue going forward, I think both he and the issue are super-coachable. I have also seen multiple reports of UNC coaching for QBs not being the best. Fortunately, I think, Maye has only played football for 2 of the last 4 years (I don't count the few minutes total of end-of-game time his redshirt freshman year as 'playing'), including no football season his senior HS year, and he's only 21, so it just doesn't seem like footwork is something anywhere near set in stone for him.

How's footwork not a significant issue? It's literally one of the main separators for today's pocket/mobile QBs.

I must admit, someone could call me out for discounting injury concerns for Jayden Daniels, so I'm not immune to ignoring issues others don't.

3 hours ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

I'm more concerned about his decision-making, including reported issues with post-snap adjustments, headscratching tendencies to float into sacks and make the wrong throw (i.e., into coverage with other receivers open); and those hilariously-bad throws. Are those all things that can be coached out of him? Wobblers and bad misses, sure. The rest, not so sure.

Decision-making is often directly tied to footwork. What you're concerned with here aligns with what you say you're not concerned with.

3 hours ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

But I hope those are things he can overcome, because I really really want to see him throwing deep bullets over the middle to Scary Terry.

I'm with you relating to rooting for him to throw many completions to Terry. 

I have no issues if they draft him and find myself in a good position of being satisfied with both options, but I personally prefer Daniels.

On 3/28/2024 at 5:18 PM, KDawg said:

Mmhmm. I don’t disagree.

 

I also wouldn’t disagree if Maye wasn’t in the class and we had a shot at Daniels. Or if neither was in it and we had a shot at McCarthy. This is a good situation to be in. And yes, I agree, Maye’s physical traits are among the best to ever be in a draft at QB.

Impressive claim! No response necessary, but that's quite a bold assertion.

Too bad he struggles with accuracy, haha.

23 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Instead of a dual threat QB, what if we get a great passer/processor/leader guy and put a tough, well built, fast RB in the backfield next to him as a dual threat? I read about this on an interwebs site somewhere. 

 

So many variables, some known and some unknown, come into play when evaluating the qualities of a great passer/processor/leader, and Maye's consistency in accuracy is questionable. I'll admit, I've grown weary of quarterbacks honing accuracy at the professional level, so I tend to favor selecting a first-round pick with exceptional dual-threat capabilities, as it immediately impacts the game under a rookie QB contract. Or guys who are deadly accurate. 

I'm not against Maye per se, as some have pointed out, he can impact the game with his run ability, which could aid his immediate impact and development.

However, the prospect of drafting someone at #2 who struggles with accuracy is daunting, much like the concerns some have about selecting a thin dual-threat QB.

23 hours ago, Commander20180 said:

I just think that Jayden's build is too slight in the long run. He's going to get injured at some point. I like Maye's frame a lot more. If he can get his footwork straightened out i think we are in business. Unfortunately in this world there are no guarantees.

Maye's getting credit for being 230, a nice little round-up. Just imagine the Daniels crew rounding his weight up to 217. LOL!

230 does sound cool though 

On 3/30/2024 at 12:58 PM, The Consigliere said:

Maye. If a guy runs if his early read is covered, and is predictable in that fashion, he's both easier to predict, and his career is easier to shorten. 

 

I just find the Daniels arguments utterly unconvincing and I find the individuals buying whole hog, a reminder of how and why so many dumb --- draft day decisions occur every single draft class. Maybe he hits, maybe he doesn't, and maybe Maye hits and maybe Maye doesn't, but I am baffled at how people can't see the concerning issues Daniels has in his cv, that are trade mark predictors of busting, and how few Maye has. It's just utterly mind boggling to me and suggests a level of intellectual laziness and confirmation biases that are just again, mind boggling to me. 

If he's processing so fast, why is he consantly running when his first read is covered when he had the best WR group in the country the past two years? Suggestive to me that his processing is maybe, a tad, overrated or that as per usual, people are focusing exclusively on '23, which is, to put it bluntly, totally asinine. The guys CV is '19-'23. Not, '23. I mean, I'd love to pretend that McLaurin's '23 didn't happen, but it did. We can't pretend Jayden's '19, '20, '21 and '22 didn't happen just like we can't pretend that Maye's '23 was worse than his '22, but that both seasons are a part of his CV.

 

Crazy pills, I just would like to believe this is predraft nonsense. Some of the quotes on JJ for instance, for why to target him so early, are such nebulous horse ----, it's easy as hell to figure out why teams draft bust after bust in round 1 at QB. 

So many draft day decisions concerning QBs have been influenced by factors like size, arm strength, and the belief that accuracy issues can be fixed. This whole emphasis on age and seasons played seems like a bit of a sham to me.

I believe it really boils down to whether a QB can establish competence at the position, something more QBs in the NFL do than they're given credit for. But the true test lies in whether they can rise above the average (the 70% of starting QBs) and impact games at an elite level.

It seems Daniels has shown competence at the QB spot, but who knows if he'll progress beyond that? The reality is, even the most hardworking and talented QBs sometimes struggle to break out.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing either way, but it feels like Daniels has the higher floor between the two. We'll need to delve deeper into each to determine their ceilings.

2 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

I feel like these things are things any NFL caliber OC and QB coach should be able to get to a good place in the 3 months of training time they'll have, so I don't know if I buy the "less NFL ready" argument all that much.

What's the basis for your assertion that it's easy and achievable within a three-month timeframe?I strongly disagree; it's much harder than some people make it out to be.I often liken changing natural motor mechanics as a passer to adjusting shooting form in basketball.

From my experience, most people struggle to change their shots, and those who succeed often take a long time. They have to be incredibly dedicated and somewhat obsessed with the process to make it happen.

Moreover, those who do manage to change their shot usually believe deep down that the change is necessary; it's not something they do just because someone else tells them to.

It's often overlooked how challenging it can be to convince someone that they need to change their mechanics, especially when they're poised to be a top 3 pick, have likely secured generational wealth for their family, and have experienced significant on-field success. Even individuals who come across as amiable in interviews may resist this process, and it's not necessarily right or wrong for them to do so. It's a highly nuanced and layered situation.

2 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

But it's seemingly become a huge part of the narrative, that Jayden can waltz in day 1, while Maye will need weeks and weeks to be ready.

 

I'm just not sure if this narrative is particularly accurate.  I feel like the same could be said for any of the prospects, none of them are perfect.

On day one, you can establish an elite run game and dynamic play-action with Daniels at QB; that's the potential baseline.

No certainties, but it looks probable to me that with the front office and coaching staff in place, they'll be able to achieve competence from day one and potentially excel in both the run and play-action game. 
 

For transparency purposes, I believe Maye has similar run qualities to Daniel Jones and his legs can be leaned on a bit to aid growth and competence as an offense. 

34 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

There ya go.

 

 

Just stats, but the dude seems solid from the middle of the field. Yet some feel, he struggles with those areas and can't seem to throw effectively in the middle?

I fully recognize that I lack a spectrum to assign value to these numbers, but I do see a significant amount of production in the middle of the field.

20 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am firmly in the Maye camp.  And its not a tough one for me.

 

But if they do take Daniels, i am good with it.  Mainly because i assume they have a plan to run an offense around Daniels' wheels.  Daniels to me feels very boom-bust.  I am not in the camp that because of his wheels his floor is higher.  You can be a meh QB with wheels.  See Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Malik Willis -- heck Mariota.  These guys aren't even arguably low tier starting QBs.  You can be fast and suck.  It happens.

 

But Lamar, Russell Wilson and to some extent Hurts and Kyler have succeed as dual threats.     The other upside to Daniels is he's by far the more exciting player.  If we get some 2012 RG3 buzz that wouldn't hurt for a franchise trying to regain interest from their fans.

 

 

Easy on the supreme dual-threat quarterbacks. Also, Malik Willis appreciates being included in this list.

16 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

If you're in a rebuild (which we are regardless of which euphemism the brass is using for it), you are probably penciling in Mariota to start Week 1 as the more reliable veteran to help install the offense while the OL (and skill players) gel and your Rookie acclimates to the pro game.

 

I don't think the brass feels the need to immediately start whomever they draft and I think ultimately they'll pick the higher ceiling guy with the idea that the top-notch coaching staff will bring the best out of them (and the roster construction will drop them into a good situation).

 

Whether that guy is Maye or Daniels will be up to Peters & Quinn to decide, but I wouldn't read too much into whomever seems more ready to start Day 1.

No sugarcoating it—rebuilds are outdated in today's NFL. If your front office or coaches are resorting to that language, you're already in trouble.

I expect making the playoffs in year one. Scratch, claw, and coach your way into a wild card spot. If you can't establish above average play early on, it's unlikely to happen later. Three-fourths of the NFL falls below average or just average.

16 hours ago, seantaylor=god said:

I hope Drake Maye runs a  4.55-4.6 40 and everyone can talk about how “sneaky athletic” he is.

 

I really hope he runs, jumps, etc. Just be a competitor.

Maye covered all psychological aspects that I could analyze from my TV screen during the combine and other interviews I’ve watched. He appears to be a true competitor, which I believe is crucial to rival the psychologically competitive QBs in the league. If he completes all the testing and runs, it will only bolster my positive opinion of his makeup.

When available, I tend to favor physical freaks at the QB spot (round 1 guys more so these days), partly because I think they don’t necessarily need to be elite processors to compete with the top QBs in the NFL.

However, I’m completely on board if Washington can find that mental unicorn.

Just now, DogofWar1 said:

 

Sources are saying the opposite of what they said yesterday, details at 11.  And don't forget to tune in tomorrow when we'll feed you some new completely different mutually exclusive to previous reports rumors!

Not a problem. Today is Maye's day, where those who admire him as a prospect or have a personal connection get a chance to hype up their guy. Not implying you’re saying it’s a problem though lol 

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm shocked that a guy who was already completely in the tank for Daniels thought that Daniels nailed his pro day.   

Your 37 posts today refuting most positive things about JD puts you in the same category. #biased view 

With all that water weight, I wonder if he’ll need to take a couple of bathroom breaks during his throwing session. Feel for him having to run around and throw the football with 10 pounds of water weight. 
 

Seriously though, it's encouraging to see him check out at nearly 6’4” and 210 pounds. Even if 210 is on the higher end, it’s a goal worth aiming for, and it seems like something he can achieve in the future. 210 pounds is more than sufficient to play QB.

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I always find it hilarious that Maye detractors literally never respond to any of your posts that bring up all of this type of stuff.

Lol…

They're all gone; you guys have successfully squeezed out most of the opposing views, and it's now a full-on Maye love fest around here these days. 
 

Im good with either.  

21 hours ago, bh32 said:

Washington is not gonna draft Daniels..the guy is almost 24 years old and is more than likely will weigh in at 200lbs if he is lucky..huge red flag with him not getting weighed or measured.

Get prepared for the rise of older quarterbacks becoming more prevalent, thanks to the shifts happening in college football with the transfer portal and NIL. While it might not become the standard, many players will begin to break out in their fourth and fifth years of college after initially playing for weaker programs.

We're witnessing just the early stages of this trend, but as the masses adapt, it's likely to become a popular topic in the media in the coming years.

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

If your concern is not having a good enough OL to protect a young QB, you better hope that if the pick is Daniels or McCarthy (we aren't picking McCarthy at 2) that they sit for a year while we shore up the OL, because they both had excellent OLs in college and aren't going to be used to the pressure most likely, Maye had a **** OL in college so he's kinda used to running for his life within a couple seconds of the snap.

 

An lol. Dude, Mariota is a scrub. 100% pure backup material. The only reason he's here is to be a mentor to the guy we draft.

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Daniels had a very good OL at LSU. Not AS good as Michigan but quite good. I remember plenty of times watching his cutups where he's just sitting back there for like 6 seconds.

 

And McCarthy weighed in at 219lbs. 

 

And sure, Daniels has nice mechanics, but when he's pressured he lowers his eyes and looks to run more than almost any other college QB in the last 5 years. And in the NFL that could quite possibly spell disaster. 

 

So no, Daniels is not more ready than the other two unless you're fine with him tucking and running at the first sign of pressure and likely getting pancaked and eventually injured. Especially when you also consider how little his tape shows NFL type 2nd level tight window and anticipation throws. You talking about his mechanics is irrelevant to the actual problems with his game.

 

This whole "Daniels is ready day one" thing is just utterly weird and literally ignores all of the problems in his game.

Throughout history, elite dual-threat quarterbacks have consistently elevated the performance of their offensive lines in the NFL. This impact extends beyond just passing, as they also significantly influence the effectiveness of the run game. Offensive linemen thrive on running the football and pass blocking in favorable situations.

An offense built around a dual-threat quarterback, especially in an RPO system, where the quarterback can both run and make accurate throws, even at a below-average level, can start impacting wins from day one.
 

I'm not suggesting that this approach is foolproof or that there isn't a ceiling for this type of quarterback if they fail to continue developing. However, if Daniel's were the pick, on day one, I would anticipate Washington to emerge as a top 5 rushing offense, ranking within the top 5-10 in time of possession, and be in the top 10 for turnover differential. 
 

He also could get injured week one. Roll the dice for the immediate high floor a elite ceiling potential. 

2 hours ago, cakmoney61 said:

My brain has tilted from hearing it all.  I hear people talk with such assurance and authority yet they have opposing viewpoints.  What scares me is both viewpoints being right on why the other shouldn't be selected and neither QB ends up being the answer.

 

The one thing I do know is Washington has to come out of this draft with a QB wherever they select him.  It's possible they trade down and select one of the QB's no one is even talking about.  Anything is possible although I don't think that will happen.  I'm sure it will be either Maye or Daniels at pick #2. 

 

And my response will be, "Let's gooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!" as I hope for the best.🙏 

Those who support Daniel's genuinely care about your perspective and are open to welcoming those who are leaning 60-40 towards him. Join us on the Daniel's side, where we believe in the potential for success and growth.

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Just a point I want to touch on. Earlier in the thread it was said, “Maye and Daniels are good enough to start day 1 and will not sit”.

 

Good enough and ready are two entirely different animals. 
 

Do they know the playbook? Do they understand the concepts and the way their receivers think? Are they adjusting to the speed? Their individual ability is just part of the equation on if a rookie should start on day one. There is a lot that goes into it.

 

it’s likely they both start for whatever teams they wind up on… but let’s make sure we realize that “good enough” and “ready” are different things.

So, here's the game plan: We're gonna mix it up with screens, RPOs, and play action, riding on Daniel's athleticism, especially early on. But when stuck in 3rd and long situations, just gonna have to trust Daniel to pull a rabbit out of the hat until he gets his mojo going. It's all about sticking to the plan, rolling with the punches, and adjusting as Daniel hones his skills.

And hey, in year one, it’s all about getting a wild card spot. All in for the wild card… that’s my expectation. 

15 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I feel like Daniels or Maye would be justifiable picks and each guy will come with their strengths & weaknesses. Both will need to be developed in different areas and it is still going to be very dependent on getting that roster built around them in order to expect early success.

Selecting Jayden Daniel's would greatly impact the run game and offensive line performance from day one. The prospect of achieving a great to elite run game coupled with a high rate of favorable passing situations for the offensive line presents an enticing opportunity that's difficult to overlook.

15 hours ago, MartinC said:

You are talking like Maye is a pocket passer who is a statue. He’s very mobile and a good runner. He had almost 700 yards rushing in 2022 and 425 yards in 2023. Ton of rushing TDs as well. He’s not as fast as Daniel’s but he’s very mobile.

Honestly, I might be underestimating this aspect of Maye’s game, but it's primarily because of the comparison constraints between him and Daniels. While I don't have any particular dislike for Maye, his struggle with accuracy is a significant concern, especially considering the importance of precision for a quarterback. It's a challenging trait to be patient with unless the player possesses exceptional athleticism at the position. Take Justin Herbert, a highly regarded young quarterback, who despite his talent, has a losing NFL record four years into his career, largely due to accuracy issues.

Maye's knack for extending plays enhances his potential to make an immediate impact on wins early in his rookie contract while he continues to develop, and that's something I truly appreciate.

I'm fortunate to be in a position where I trust the front office's decision-making, and I'll support whatever choice they make.

15 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

As for calling Williams not much of a rushing QB - have you actually watched him play? He tends to break the pocket and look to throw, but when he does run he’s a very very good runner.

I'm solely referring to rushing yards here. While he's undeniably a supremely gifted runner, he often opts to pursue big plays downfield instead of taking a 6-yard rush. I anticipate his rushing yards to significantly increase in the NFL because of the premium placed on these yards and his willingness to do whatever it takes to establish a solid baseline level of play early on. All about getting to second contract for him. 

4 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

I am trying to think of a supreme QB athlete who has won a S.B. and that is the goal. I can think of many processors that are not super athletes. Brady, Stratford, Mahomes, Manning's, Foles, Rogers, Roethlisberger........ No winners that I can find?  He does not have to be a super athlete for me, and does not have to be a super runner. A RB has a short life in the NFL, why draft a hybird RB/QB? His career is going to be shorter most likely if you use him that way. 

  

The era of offenses being tailored around supreme athletes at quarterback has only just begun, and it's an exciting prospect to imagine. While Super Bowls may not be the perfect metric in my opinion, I understand their significance. I'm rooting for one of these elite athletes at the position to secure a Super Bowl victory and continue to broaden the horizons and possibilities for others. Twenty years from now, it's conceivable that most starting quarterbacks will boast 4.4 to 4.6 speed, but there will always be individuals like Jokic and Doncic who defy the athletic norms, providing hope to average athletes and armchair quarterbacks alike that their sons and grandsons could also make it to the NFL or NBA. However, the majority will likely emulate players such as Giannis, Anthony Edwards, Ja Morant, LeBron James, Russell Westbrook, and so on. NBA is ahead of the NFL in most things. 
 

4 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

But it is the goal everybody is shooting for, we want trophy's in the case. What type QB gets you there is the point? I could careless about the Super Athelete QB. Give me one that is a good athlete that can do all the other things. 

I couldn't care less about multiple Super Bowls; that's a fantasy world, and the likelihood of winning multiple championships is extremely slim. What I desire is sustained success and playoff appearances for a decade, allowing the chips to fall where they may in the postseason. This is the goal that the best organizations strive for, and indirectly, Super Bowl opportunities may arise from this sustained excellence.

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

It's a passing league!

 

Drafts a QB who primary weapon is to run.

Talk about obtuse. 

4 hours ago, Conn said:

Your posts confuse me because it’s Maye whose off-platform improvisation in (and out of) the pocket reminds some of Mahomes and Rodgers. Not Daniels. That isn’t his game, he doesn’t as a rule extend the play behind the LOS and make magic happen downfield, that’s Maye. Daniels runs. Not as a last resort after waiting to see if he can shake anyone open by evading the pass rush behind the LOS—but as a primary plan B after his initial reads, regardless of who is breaking open or not. You’re advocating for Maye’s skillset here and don’t seem to realize it. 
 

I've held a similar viewpoint for about 10 years, but I don't expect you to remember all the nuances I've shared, so I'll try to recap lol. 

I generally lean towards supreme athletes at the quarterback spot because I believe they tend to yield positive outcomes early in their rookie contracts more consistently than other quarterbacks. It doesn't necessarily require them to be elite processors or outsmart the established stars in the league. I'm aiming for a high floor and immediate ceiling, fully aware that someone like Daniel might not be playing in years 12-17 as much as Maye, and I'm fine with that.

That said, I'm not discounting Maye; I'm intrigued by his moxie and ability to play off schedule. I prefer a supreme athlete with clean throwing mechanics as a starting point , knowing that the run game will likely be top 5 and the offensive line will benefit greatly from his talent from day one as a starter. I'm a sucker for that while on a rookie deal. With Maye, there are more unknown variables; we'll have to hope he's super smart, maniacal about his process, an elite processor, and can become more accurate. 

I'm not sure where the narrative of Daniel not making throws off schedule has come from, as his highlights are filled with these throws. I do agree that he lacks the ability to throw from different platforms.

I'm not suggesting that it's right or wrong at this stage, but I continue to lean towards this preference in most years. I'll admit that I prefer Caleb Williams over Jaden Daniels, even though he's not as much of a rushing quarterback, but he’s extremely accurate. 

11 minutes ago, illone said:

Qbs go off script occasionally, but the ones that continually do it dont last long.

 

Ask Johnny Manziel how that worked out for him...

And I'll add, engaging in drugs, drinking, partying the night before games, or missing practice or playbook study doesn't contribute positively either lol 

However, I agree that running ability alone isn't sufficient. Quarterbacks must also be able to provide rhythm and patterns throughout the flow of a game, navigating through chaos and adapting to unknown variables. Fortunately, effectively running the football as a team contributes immensely to overall success. 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Sure, QBs nowadays tend to be more athletic and are more adept at making off-schedule plays when things break down. But you take it to an extreme. Again, the vast majority is still within the system. Just because guys can make more plays outside the pocket doesn't mean they're just making **** up and winging it.

The better your quarterback is at improvisation, winging it, and making off-schedule plays after the initial play call fails, the better chance your team has at winning games. Many of these improvised plays are exactly that—making things up and winging it. Defensive coordinators have expressed concerns about these improvisational situations being the most worrisome for them.
 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So you're creating a false choice. "Do you think the position is played like it was 30 years ago?" vs "QBs just do whatever they want now...oh and they all have to run 4.3 40s because I said so...even though no QBs run that fast outside of Lamar"

I was simply highlighting the fact that quarterbacks now approach the position from a significantly different perspective compared to 10, 20, or 30 years ago, and offensive coordinators and head coaches have relinquished a considerable amount of control relative to the past.

While having a 4.3 speed can certainly contribute to winning two MVP awards, it's not a necessity. I personally appreciate elite runners at the quarterback position and fully recognize the associated limitations and risks involved.

I believe Sam Howell is an elite runner, and I probably possess a similar level of speed as him. I think it was a mistake not to heavily lean on this ability to aid in his growth—it was a missed opportunity. It's not just about top-end speed, but also the overall running traits that I appreciate.
 

I champion this style of QB, but in no way saying it’s the only way to do it. 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So your "Evolve, knucklehead" is......well, it's just  a dumb statement. 

My apologies. 

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

You seem to live in a complete fantasy world. The idea that QBs nowadays just take control from their OCs and systems and just sort of run around making **** up is the height of stupidity, yet you seem insistent on repeating it as if it's fact. The vast majority of the time these QBs are absolutely 100% playing within the system and their standard reads. That includes guys like Rodgers and even Mahomes.

 

Sure, they break the pocket when pressured and plays break down and then can improvise really well, but the idea that they just wing it constantly it nonsensical considering how incredibly complex NFL defenses are and how incredibly intricate and well designed NFL offensive systems are.

I understand your viewpoint, but let's not dismiss the reality that quarterbacks like Rodgers and Mahomes have shown an increasing inclination towards improvisation, which has impacted their adherence to the system over the years. While they still primarily operate within the system and make standard reads, their improvisational abilities have allowed them to break away from the prescribed playbook in certain situations, particularly when plays break down.
 

It's not about constantly winging it, but recognizing the evolution of quarterback play in response to the demands of modern NFL defenses.
 

Do you think the quarterback position is played similarly to 30 years ago? Was off-platform throw ability a commonly discussed term and key trait 20 years ago? Was the ability to play off schedule considered a prerequisite for incoming quarterbacks 20 years ago?

Evolve, knucklehead!

19 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Plays arent really designed that way. They are generally designed to get someone open based on the defensive formation the play faces. The QB is responsible for reading the play and finding the open man. Kind of tough to just say "F it i'm going short" if that guy isnt open. 

I was discussing the accepted notion for quarterbacks to resort to the check down in a 3rd and long situation, conceding that the play call couldn't generate an open throw. Over the past 15 years, quarterbacks have increasingly taken control from their offensive coordinators by incorporating backyard football tactics. I've often attributed Aaron Rodgers with leading this charge in an extreme manner, similar to Steph Curry and his playing style in the NBA.
 

It was considered a smart play to check it down short in a 3rd and long situation consistently in games much more than it is now. The F it I’m going short is often there in a 3rd and long, the defense will concede the check down often and rally to the ball short of the sticks. 

6 minutes ago, BMagic said:

I know his career own didn't pan out, but Mark Sanchez brings up some interesting points about Maye hooping in high school. Said that Maye averaging 11 boards reveals some things about his attitude/moxie. Rebounding comes down to desire and ability to box guys out, while requiring the toughness to compete with guys for the boards. Touches on him being able to throw with anticipation and not turning the ball over much on 3rd and 4th downs. Also shows that he needs to improve on decision-making.

 

 

I must admit, as a supporter of JD, Maye really impressed me in the interviews I watched. He exhibited several positive traits such as confidence, self-deprecation, humility, good energy, engaging banter, competitiveness, and standing firm on his identity and play style when questioned about areas for improvement. Moreover, he displayed what appeared to be a genuine desire to achieve greatness.

Like that he’s multi-sport athlete, I lean towards baseball as the preferred sport for a quarterback, but love that he’s an all around athlete. 

3 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

 

Not necessarily directed at you. 

I recall early concerns in the NBA about star players dominating the ball too much, potentially sidelining coaching strategies. Over the past 15-20 years, this "ball-hogging" behavior has become widely accepted. 

Similarly, are quarterbacks becoming ball hogs in football, and does it yield positive results? I wonder if elite QBs clashed with coordinators, particularly 5-10 years ago, regarding progressions and opting to check down for a safer play rather than riskier downfield passes or playing off script. Does this tendency result in more sacks for some quarterbacks?

Not too long ago, it was widely accepted coaching wisdom for quarterbacks to progress through their reads and, if the first-down throw wasn't available, to check it down or throw it away and punt. While this approach still holds value at times, quarterbacks increasingly rely on improvisational backyard football tendencies to personally seek out first downs at a much higher rate. Much like an NBA superstar. 

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

You're vastly overrating how much teams will fear Daniels. He's not going to be the run threat Jackson is. He's closer to Bustin Fields

What are you basing this on?

Your logic would allow me to compare Drake Maye to Zach Wilson, right? Or Sam Darnold? Trubisky? 

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

The more I think about it the more Maye makes the most sense. 
 

The trap teams fall into is having a QB that’s good enough that you have to pay like he’s top 5, but it’s not actually good enough to preform that way by himself. Dak is an example of one paid like it but can’t play. Mahomes is the obvious example of a guy who is paid and can preform. 
 

There is only one guy in the draft that has been asked to do it all by himself and actually succeeded at it. That’s something I value, I think, more than anything. He was THE guy. At some point if he is good enough he will have to the THE guy in the NFL because we won’t have enough money to pay him and everyone else. When I think of it like that it gets really obvious. 

Or commit fully to a player with a higher probability of achieving elite impact during his rookie contract. A quarterback with exceptional running abilities drafted in the first or second round can establish a playoff foundation and offer a chance to compete against top quarterbacks in the divisional and championship rounds of the playoffs.

This elite run ability QB has clean mechanics—mind blown

Sign me up! 

I'm thrilled about the dual threat QB discussion! Let's keep putting it out there in the universe. Manifestation at its finest!

8 year QB works for me.