Chalk Talk: Discussion: Player Discipline (The Little Things)

So, here I was sitting at the local watering hole last night after we wrapped up a ten team camp. All ten teams coaches were at said watering hole and we were all talking about the weeks events. I got in some conversations about discipline and how important it is and how winning teams have traditionally had it and the other teams, well, haven't.

It seemed like that opinion was almost unanimous amongst coaches. When I brought up the Miami Hurricanes of old, I was countered... Which is strange considering I'm a Canes guy... The counter was simple, and here it is, paraphrased:

Miami was allowed to do whatever they wanted on the field, or at least they appeared to... But the bottom line was they were a unified group. Jimmy Johnson had full control of those Hurricane teams, but he knew he was fighting a losing battle by trying to throw too much discipline at an entire team. So instead he disciplined around those things and created a monster. Those players respected Jimmy Johnson. His color didn't matter. He was a part of their team and they knew it and they believed in him.

Hmmm... Impressive anecdote... I bought it. It's not the way I run things, but it worked.

Conversations shifted to teams in our area and why some had been successful and some hadn't.

I brought up the point that every team that I had coached that had been successful was disciplined. From dress code to play on the field. If everyone didn't have long white socks on game day, none of us wore long white socks, we all went short.

If someone was wearing the wrong color undershirt on game day, they were benched for a quarter.

It was all laid out ahead of time and some parents gave us grief after the student/athlete was benched, but in the end most came to realize the importance of the little things on a football team. And it was the same policy for each and every one of the players on that football team. Best player or the worst. I've always said that you're only as good as your weakest link, and in the end if you win, that guy that no one thinks is any good had a huge part in your success. The team wins and he's a part of it. There is no one that is superior as far as a human being level on a team. Sure, you have better players, but all of them are the same in my book when it comes to expectations.

Act like a clown? Sit on the bench. Bad grades aren't acceptable. School is always first and foremost. And it pays off more times than not.

The bottom line from my stance is that if you have a policy, you stick to it, no matter what. If you waver in your stance, you've just sent a message that you aren't going to live up to your word. And nothing destroys a team faster.

If a policy is outlined from the jump, you cannot back down from it. It must be followed through or you risk losing your team. Sure, they'll probably still like you if they liked you to begin with, but that "fear" of upsetting Coach is now gone.

I think this is the same throughout all levels of the sport. From Pop Warner, to Modified, to JV, to Varsity to Collegiate Ball and to the Pros. Sure, there are different levels of discipline, but the most disciplined teams are always tough to beat.

And I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. People could probably still argue, effectively, that those Miami Hurricanes had no discipline, but the counter argument will always be there as well.

Its the teams that do all of these little things that know how to line up, are not highly penalized and are aware of what needs to be done on a week to week basis to win football games.

So what say you, ES? Am I full of crap or do you agree. Don't let me down here, I'm looking for some discussion

It's a 100% spot on. The people up here, saying Shanny should give in, and just overlook the situation, seem to have no grasp on the aspect of the sport from a team perspective. I question if many of these guys ever played on a competitive level or ever felt like they belonged on a special team.

So true about this statement. "if you have a policy, you stick to it, no matter what"

you are not full of crap but your methods only work on certain kinds of teams.

I play on a team where the guys pretty much self discipline. we have player coaches for the most part and our head coach is a figure head. we have been pretty succsessful with 13 provincial championships and 4 nationals in 16 seasons.

The way I do this is simple, guys know that the best player is gonna play regardless if he is a rookie or a 10 year vet.

we have very simple rules, and everyone is accountable for them, but the overriding factor is ego and pride, we all like winning and wont do anything to jeapordise that.

its actually quite funny because we have a couple guys who talk smack, and my rule for smack talking is simple, you can do it until the ref warns you or you get a penalty and only if you are beating your man, we have one DB who is a bonehead and talks smack to guys even when hes getting beat, we keep him in line by mocking him until he shuts up.

The bottom line to me is win the game, make friends later.

you are not full of crap but your methods only work on certain kinds of teams.

I think this is the same throughout all levels of the sport. From Pop Warner, to Modified, to JV, to Varsity to Collegiate Ball and to the Pros. Sure, there are different levels of discipline, but the most disciplined teams are always tough to beat.

I think I covered that with this statement, Ryman. Obviously there are different types of discipline for each level... Hell... It's different for every team. Take the Miami Hurricane example, for instance.

This is the gist of the post:

The bottom line from my stance is that if you have a policy, you stick to it, no matter what. If you waver in your stance, you've just sent a message that you aren't going to live up to your word. And nothing destroys a team faster.

This can apply to coaches or players who know how to self discipline.

You have to have discipline, but it has to be the right kind of discipline. There has to be a framework laid out which clearly states what's expected in terms off field behavior, attitude and what is and is not acceptable behavior. Then you stick to it or you lose your team.

However it's on the field where discipline really counts. Sticking to your assignment, not jumping offsides, no stupid late hits, not giving up pass interference on 3rd down etc etc. I don't care if everyone does wear the same colour socks and say yes Coach if your guard keeps jumping offsides on 3rd and short your team has no discipline.

I find that on the best teams I played on the coaches set standards but it was the players who held each other accountable.

You have to have discipline, but it has to be the right kind of discipline. There has to be a framework laid out which clearly states what's expected in terms off field behavior, attitude and what is and is not acceptable behavior. Then you stick to it or you lose your team.

However it's on the field where discipline really counts. Sticking to your assignment, not jumping offsides, no stupid late hits, not giving up pass interference on 3rd down etc etc. I don't care if everyone does wear the same colour socks and say yes Coach if your guard keeps jumping offsides on 3rd and short your team has no discipline.

I find that on the best teams I played on the coaches set standards but it was the players who held each other accountable.

My opinion is, that in my situation, things like wearing the same socks is a precursor to them doing the on field things.

My opinion is, that in my situation, things like wearing the same socks is a precursor to them doing the on field things.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with setting off field standards. It's just that if that does not carry over onto the field it's of no value. Creating a culture of group discipline, togetherness and personal accountability can be done in a number of ways and what works with one group in a given situation will not work with another.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with setting off field standards. It's just that if that does not carry over onto the field it's of no value. Creating a culture of group discipline, togetherness and personal accountability can be done in a number of ways and what works with one group in a given situation will not work with another.

I said as much in the OP and a reply. I agree 100%. The Hurricanes thing, is again, a major example of a situation where a coach couldn't drop the hammer on the little things or he'd lose them. So he did it in other ways.

My opinion is, that in my situation, things like wearing the same socks is a precursor to them doing the on field things.

see wearing the same socks and same t shirts to me are just control freak type things, holding guys accountable for stupid penalties is another thing entirely. some of the bes players I know are free spirits.

I did laugh at our "head coach" a few years ago when he demanded I wear the purple game socks, I wore them for warmups and then they tore because my Calves are quite large and the small socks the team ordered didnt even remotely fit when pulled up

My opinion is, that in my situation, things like wearing the same socks is a precursor to them doing the on field things.

see wearing the same socks and same t shirts to me are just control freak type things, holding guys accountable for stupid penalties is another thing entirely. some of the bes players I know are free spirits.

I did laugh at our "head coach" a few years ago when he demanded I wear the purple game socks, I wore them for warmups and then they tore because my Calves are quite large and the small socks the team ordered didnt even remotely fit when pulled up

See the bold in my self-quote. Seems you guys are missing that.

Our guys need the discipline. They don't have it otherwise. Those types of things work for us. Doesn't mean they'd work other places. They're just examples of some disciplinary type things.

The saddest thing I've witnessed was an incredibly talented team with poor discipline. 3 of the best players in the state with lots of other talent around them. They got to the third round of the playoffs on one guy's heart (one of the three talented guys...he weighed 220, and about half of that was heart). He was injured in the second half and couldn't finish the game (starting RB, MLB). The team had a first and goal from the 5 with a minute and change remaining to tie (with extra point -- coach told me later he would not have gone for two in that situation).

The coach turned to the second string RB and told him to get into the game. The kid (I was standing there) said, "No." He was afraid to get the ball in that situation. The team didn't get into the endzone, and the final play was the 3rd string RB dropping a pass in the endzone (hit him in the hands about thigh-high). A disciplined team would never have that happen.

The coach is a phenomenal coach, but he was in his second year as head coach and didn't quite have the discipline dynamic worked out, imho. I firmly believe that if he had the same team now that he'd win the championship. This is based on his getting much-better-than expected results with poor talent and lots of discipline.

I know I get that, I coach basketball and football as well as play, and the kids know that when coach says jump you jump and in the air you ask how high. howveer they also know that I never ask them to do anything without a direct purpose.

some coaches go the martinet route, the problem with this is that you will lose some very good players, I have had some very good coaches who knew how to deal with people and I have had 2 who were my way or the highway types. one of them once tried to tell me I had to wear white undershirts, I have always worn black and am somewhat superstitious so when he benched me once for a half because i wore my lucky shirt I simply told him he had two choices, his best player could either play or his best player could start showing up late and not warming up (because after sitting for a half I stiffened up big time.) he said he would bench me again until 2 of the captains went to him and told him to just let me wear my damn shirt. lets be honest yes its superstition on my part but its not like white was gonna make me rush the qb better.

let's take a look at the NFL. when i think of undisciplined teams i don't think of winners. winners are guys like parcels and belicheck who have complete control. losers are guys like zorn and marvin lewis who let the inmates run the asylum.

these are quick examples, but i think that we should think of examples in the league we're talking about now. you can talk about rugby or baseball or even college football, but in reality the nfl is the nfl.

The saddest thing I've witnessed was an incredibly talented team with poor discipline. 3 of the best players in the state with lots of other talent around them. They got to the third round of the playoffs on one guy's heart (one of the three talented guys...he weighed 220, and about half of that was heart). He was injured in the second half and couldn't finish the game (starting RB, MLB). The team had a first and goal from the 5 with a minute and change remaining to tie (with extra point -- coach told me later he would not have gone for two in that situation).

The coach turned to the second string RB and told him to get into the game. The kid (I was standing there) said, "No." He was afraid to get the ball in that situation. The team didn't get into the endzone, and the final play was the 3rd string RB dropping a pass in the endzone (hit him in the hands about thigh-high). A disciplined team would never have that happen.

The coach is a phenomenal coach, but he was in his second year as head coach and didn't quite have the discipline dynamic worked out, imho. I firmly believe that if he had the same team now that he'd win the championship. This is based on his getting much-better-than expected results with poor talent and lots of discipline.

if you go to our teams website you can go to the history section, in 2004 we played a team called the Edmonton Stallions in our first game, they had a former CFL coach coaching them, they had several former d-1 players from the states and a couple of former cfl guys, they had no self discipline and we spanked them 63-12. a few years later we played a team with Ronney jenkins (former highschool rushing record holder and probowl player for sna diego) we beat his team 66-10 and he averaged less than a yard per carry. its all about personal discipline and desire to win.

nobody would say we are a huge discipline team, however we have self discipline, dont play dirty, and take few penalties, thats the discipline you need, and you cant coach heart, players either have heart and toughness or they do not.

I know I get that, I coach basketball and football as well as play, and the kids know that when coach says jump you jump and in the air you ask how high. howveer they also know that I never ask them to do anything without a direct purpose.

some coaches go the martinet route, the problem with this is that you will lose some very good players, I have had some very good coaches who knew how to deal with people and I have had 2 who were my way or the highway types. one of them once tried to tell me I had to wear white undershirts, I have always worn black and am somewhat superstitious so when he benched me once for a half because i wore my lucky shirt I simply told him he had two choices, his best player could either play or his best player could start showing up late and not warming up (because after sitting for a half I stiffened up big time.) he said he would bench me again until 2 of the captains went to him and told him to just let me wear my damn shirt. lets be honest yes its superstition on my part but its not like white was gonna make me rush the qb better.

You just showed why I like my guys wearing the same colors. I follow the same rules as I ask them to follow. I lead by example, not by word.

To make it more clear, our school colors are green and white. I allow the kids to wear green, white, black, or grey undershirts. They have team shirts that are all of the above colors that we give them. They buy their Green/White UnderArmor on their own. I don't want random designs, but if they wear a black shirt with a design that gets covered by pads/you can't really see through the jersey... I don't care. When they wear an orange shirt underneath, that can clearly be seen, I do care... And that expectation is made clear.

let's take a look at the NFL. when i think of undisciplined teams i don't think of winners. winners are guys like parcels and belicheck who have complete control. losers are guys like zorn and marvin lewis who let the inmates run the asylum.

these are quick examples, but i think that we should think of examples in the league we're talking about now. you can talk about rugby or baseball or even college football, but in reality the nfl is the nfl.

Going with the NFL, guys like Belichick and Gibbs werent martinets, guys like Tom coughlin are. Belicheat and Gobbs were actually pretty easy going as long as you toed the line.

let's take a look at the NFL. when i think of undisciplined teams i don't think of winners. winners are guys like parcels and belicheck who have complete control. losers are guys like zorn and marvin lewis who let the inmates run the asylum.

these are quick examples, but i think that we should think of examples in the league we're talking about now. you can talk about rugby or baseball or even college football, but in reality the nfl is the nfl.

This topic isn't JUST about the pros, though.

I have no problem with using pro examples in the thread. This thread was born out of a conversation I had with other coaches and, quite honestly, the entire 92 situation. But the discussion is all encompassing.

I think first we need to define terms here so that we are talking about the same thing. Your definition of discipline seems to include dresscodes in the same category as lining up properly and avoiding penalties. I think you're talking about two very different kinds of discipline. On the football field, the coach should be looking for precision. Precision is attained mainly by repetition. I don't think dress codes have any effect at all on a team's execution.

Football coaches have more control on the outcome of a game than other sports. Perhaps that's why football seems to draw more than its fair share of control freaks to the coaching ranks. They make too many rules; they lose their temper; they scream; they treat their players like crap. From what I've read, Mike Shanahan has, over the years, learned to back off the ego-trip. He seems to be striking the right balance now.

Winning a championships requires good players executing intelligent schemes. I think people tend to greatly overrate the psychological factors like discipline, leadership, and so on.

I think first we need to define terms here so that we are talking about the same thing. Your definition of discipline seems to include dresscodes in the same category as lining up properly and avoiding penalties. I think you're talking about two very different kinds of discipline. On the football field, the coach should be looking for precision. Precision is attained mainly by repetition. I don't think dress codes have any effect at all on a team's execution.

I disagree. I think they in fact have an effect on my team's execution. They all buy into it. It brings them closer together. They buy extra socks with their own money in order to help their teammates. That makes other teammates want to play harder and read up on their playbooks as to not allow their teammates down. Is the carryover huge? No. But there is carryover to the field. It's minimal, but it helps.

Football coaches have more control on the outcome of a game than other sports. Perhaps that's why football seems to draw more than its fair share of control freaks to the coaching ranks. They make too many rules; they lose their temper; they scream; they treat their players like crap. From what I've read, Mike Shanahan has, over the years, learned to back off the ego-trip. He seems to be striking the right balance now.

There is a difference between control freaks and coaches who discipline. I have a great relationship with my guys. Sure I may yell from time to time, but I'm also the first one there to praise them when they do the right things. They understand that. I've had players tell me that I'm tough but I'm also fair. They know that I want their all and if they work hard they have nothing to worry about.

Winning a championships requires good players executing intelligent schemes. I think people tend to greatly overrate the psychological factors like discipline, leadership, and so on.

I do agree with the first sentence. I just think things like discipline play into it a bit more than you do.

So what say you, ES? Am I full of crap or do you agree. Don't let me down here, I'm looking for some discussion

Remember Norv's team during the 90's. We had talent but no discipline. That fist fight in practice should have foreshadowed all the wins and playoff runs we wiffed b/c of the lack of discipline and resulting foul trouble.

Miami was allowed to do whatever they wanted on the field, or at least they appeared to.

The bottom line from my stance is that if you have a policy, you stick to it, no matter what. If you waver in your stance, you've just sent a message that you aren't going to live up to your word. And nothing destroys a team faster.

If a policy is outlined from the jump, you cannot back down from it. It must be followed through or you risk losing your team. Sure, they'll probably still like you if they liked you to begin with, but that "fear" of upsetting Coach is now gone.

I think this is the same throughout all levels of the sport. From Pop Warner, to Modified, to JV, to Varsity to Collegiate Ball and to the Pros. Sure, there are different levels of discipline, but the most disciplined teams are always tough to beat.

And I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. People could probably still argue, effectively, that those Miami Hurricanes had no discipline, but the counter argument will always be there as well.

Its the teams that do all of these little things that know how to line up, are not highly penalized and are aware of what needs to be done on a week to week basis to win football games.

So what say you, ES? Am I full of crap or do you agree. Don't let me down here, I'm looking for some discussion

I think you need to separate on field/from off discipline.

I'm not sure if i believe that Jimmy Johnson's Canes were undisciplined on the field.

You just can't play defense that way but i digress.

Imo an undisciplined(on the field) team will struggle to reach their potential.

They may still win if the have clearly vastly superior talent but i also think its takes structure to bring out talent.

Plenty of teams have squandered talent (easy example pre-Bill Walsh Steve Young)

But at the same time i don't think you need to have a whole slew of policies and rules to have discipline.

...I just think things like discipline play into it a bit more than you do.

For example, we often hear that highly penalized teams are undisciplined. Yet, it seems to me that most penalties are the result of an over-matched player trying to cheat to get an edge on his opponent. So, the highly penalized team is blamed on the coach for lack of discipline when we should be questioning the quality of his players.

Most things that go wrong on the football field can be explained simply. I think we should prefer those explanations to vague, psychological explanations.

For example, we often hear that highly penalized teams are undisciplined. Yet, it seems to me that most penalties are the result of an over-matched player trying to cheat to get an edge on his opponent. So, the highly penalized team is blamed on the coach for lack of discipline when we should be questioning the quality of his players.

I don't recall ever saying any such thing, although you seem to imply that this is my stance.

I never implied that the off field discipline stuff has a direct carryover to penalties. A player jumping offsides is just that... A player jumping offsides. I explained that I think the carry over is more towards playbook/camaraderie type situations, not necessarily penalties.

I don't disagree with the above quote in the least, actually.

EDIT: In the OP I say something along the lines of "It's these little things that get teams to... not be highly penalized"

I stick by that statement. It's the little things... But in that case it's not necessarily off the field little things...

I don't recall ever saying any such thing, although you seem to imply that this is my stance.

Discipline is a key contributor to hustle, chemistry and morale. These three things are underrated immesnly in the game. Ryman's example is key; they are all self-disciplined. They know what to do to win, how to prepare to win, and how to work as a team. They may mesh differently than other teams, but they mesh, and win because of it.

Some teams need a Tom Coughlin, some need a Gibbs. The goal is to find the right, disciplined players who fit your coaches philosophy and can work together.