pr11fan Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I don't know what school you went to, but that is NOT the norm. The most popular kids in school, had clothes on that looked like they came out of a good will box? Yeah right, I don't believe that for a second. Believe what you want, that's your problem not mine, ratty hippie looking shirts and jean with holes were the norm at my hs and ms it was bellbottoms, and my point remains the same I got by with levi's and decent shirts from britches and the like. Only an idiot would feel the "need" to buy their kids those clothes to make them fit in, some kids wear nice clothes and still get picked on so clothes are mostly irrelevant. Why not a couple of cheaper sweaters, instead of the Nautica? Who do they have to impress? Now keep in mind, we are talking about middle-schoolers here Why not the same damn thing in school, unless you plan on locking them in their room every weekend they're going to see the same people if you take them to the mall/movie theater or whatever, if you can get them levi's for that why not for school. I don't really give a damn if my kids are popular when I have kids, as a matter of fact I almost hope they're not as most of those kids only get into trouble, but I don't need the school to treat them like damn lemmings to make them feel good about themselves, that isn't reality and it's a big part of the problem with kids today, everybody wants to friggin sugarcoat things for them and make them think nothing is ever going to be bad for them, that isn't life and making them wear some retarded uniform isn't going to protect them from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 First and foremost, how many of you folks against it have children in school, or children at all? Makes a very big differance. Have your kid scare you just once, and I'll bet you'll be singing a different tune. I have no problem with the type of thing Art has spoken about. We've hit this subject before. It doesn't have to be government controled either. I'm all for a chip being planted in the foot of children at birth, similar to what many of us have our pets implanted with to identify them if lost. The chip in a child would be an ID, and tracking would be controled by the parents only unless law enforcment is needed. Then the parents could release the secure unlock code. My daughter is out playing right now. She's riding around our neighborhood with three friends on their bikes. Do I know exactly where she is? No. Would I like too? You bet your arse I would. She's only allowed to play and ride in three areas so I can keep track of her. People turn up missing a lot in this part of Fl. Do I live in fear? A healthy fear, not an overwhelming one. Kids have to be able to go out and play with their friends in the neighborhood, not just the kid next door. Without even realizing, she scared the poop out of me and the wife. I went out to call her in for supper one night, and she was nowhere to be found. She had been out on her bike with some of the other kids, but the only kids aroung hadn't seen her in a while. I drove around for thirty minutes in a panic, with my wife waiting at home incase she showed up. I was getting frantic, and came back to the house so I could go door to door. I went to the neighbors house across the street, and there's her bike hidden by the front door. She was playing inside for some time, and hid the bike so it wouldn't get stolen. In my crazy state, I went off on the poor little thing when she came to the door I was so scared she had been snatched. I gave a very long talk and apology while hugging her and boath of us crying. She's a great kid, never gets in trouble, but a tiny oops is all it takes to scare you to death. I was minutes from calling the PD. Originally posted by Painkiller (Now keep in mind, if you don't buy these things. Your kid is going to be teased endlessley because he doesn't have them. He can't concentrate on his grades, because he's to worried about trying to impress his piers with what kind of socks he's got on.) I can't agree with this part of your post. If your child is that preoccupied with meterialistic things, you have failed as a parent to some extent. I look at the kids at my daughters school, and they have all the stuff you speak of. My daughter doesn't have any high priced "Big Name" clothing or shoes. Most of the kids in her gifted program dont. She's a straight A student, and most of her stuff comes from Walmart, Kmart, and JC Penny. She doesn't get teased, and is very popular in school. She has very few name brand items. Her warm up pants and soccer cleats, which are Nike. Some body armor, and a pair if Converse All Stars that cost about$40. I don't go out and buy $50 soccer balls like some of her teammates have either. The ones for $15 work just fine. Her cleats cost $22, not $70 like many others I see kids sporting, and being she's going to a regional tourney next month, I"ll stick with the inexpencive stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by pr11fan Believe what you want, that's your problem not mine, ratty hippie looking shirts and jean with holes were the norm at my hs and ms it was bellbottoms, and my point remains the same I got by with levi's and decent shirts from britches and the like. Only an idiot would feel the "need" to buy their kids those clothes to make them fit in, some kids wear nice clothes and still get picked on so clothes are mostly irrelevant. We all got by, I didn't have a lot of that stuff, and I got by. My point is, that clothes have a bearing on your social status in school, and how a CHILD, not an adult feels about his/herself. If your telling me they don't. Your wrong. Originally posted by pr11fan Why not the same damn thing in school, unless you plan on locking them in their room every weekend they're going to see the same people if you take them to the mall/movie theater or whatever, if you can get them levi's for that why not for school. I don't really give a damn if my kids are popular when I have kids, as a matter of fact I almost hope they're not as most of those kids only get into trouble, but I don't need the school to treat them like damn lemmings to make them feel good about themselves, that isn't reality and it's a big part of the problem with kids today, everybody wants to friggin sugarcoat things for them and make them think nothing is ever going to be bad for them, that isn't life and making them wear some retarded uniform isn't going to protect them from it. I'm not saying we have to "protect" our kids from reality. I'm saying that school these days is in essense about everything that is NOT important, and clothes are a huge part of that. School is not about how well you do anymore, it's about things that won't matter at all once you leave. People try to categorize you, because of the clothes you wear. For example: Hippies wear clothes like you described at your school. Preps wear the clothes I described. Jocks wear sports jerseys, etc. etc. People make assumptions about you, before they even speak to you, based on your appearance. Uniforms would help kids actually learn to "talk" to one another, before they jump to conclusions based on what somebody wears. The whole, "don't judge a book by it's cover" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by Pete I can't agree with this part of your post. If your child is that preoccupied with meterialistic things, you have failed as a parent to some extent. I look at the kids at my daughters school, and they have all the stuff you speak of. My daughter doesn't have any high priced "Big Name" clothing or shoes. Most of the kids in her gifted program dont. She's a straight A student, and most of her stuff comes from Walmart, Kmart, and JC Penny. She doesn't get teased, and is very popular in school. She has very few name brand items. Her warm up pants and soccer cleats, which are Nike. Some body armor, and a pair if Converse All Stars that cost about$40. I don't go out and buy $50 soccer balls like some of her teammates have either. The ones for $15 work just fine. Her cleats cost $22, not $70 like many others I see kids sporting, and being she's going to a regional tourney next month, I"ll stick with the inexpencive stuff. Perhaps, I've been out of school to long. I'm not a parent yet either. Maybe I've lost touch a bit. However, I remember things to be the way I described in the mid 80's. Kids were teased all the time then, for not having this or that. Status was everything. It was a different time. Maybe things have changed. I still think that at the middle-school level, kids start to "group" each other. Clothes and appearance plays a big part in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I would venture a guess that kids still tease other kids about clothing and other so called status stuff. I think parents my in my age group have seen it, or even been on the short end of it when they were kids, and have taught a different set of vlues. Your always gonna have the precent of parents that are all about status. We don't see half as much of the racial stuff now as when I was in school. This is amazing to me being that Lee County Fl had been in the to 10 most segrogated areas in the nation since the 60's, up to about 5 years ago. That was a fed generated watch list. Things have changed to some extent, but again, it starts with the parents and what they teach their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmag Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 What's more, he says that it is within his power to set rules that promote a positive school environment: If he thinks ID badges will improve things, he says, then badges there will be. "You know what it comes down to? I believe junior high students want to be stylish. This is not stylish," he said. See what happens when you give a moron power? :doh: Yes, he's absolutely right. The REAL problem people have with it is that 7th and 8th graders don't find it stylish. What you think guys? On a scale of idiocy: DUMB -2 -3 -4 - 5- 6- 7- 8- 9- Freddie Mitchell (Dumb being the least, Freddie Mitchell being the most idiotic) Where do you think this guy ranks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by herrmag See what happens when you give a moron power? :doh: Yes, he's absolutely right. The REAL problem people have with it is that 7th and 8th graders don't find it stylish. What you think guys? On a scale of idiocy: DUMB -2 -3 -4 - 5- 6- 7- 8- 9- Freddie Mitchell (Dumb being the least, Freddie Mitchell being the most idiotic) Where do you think this guy ranks? I would say that for some kids, that probably does have something to do with it, but I'm the same idiot that's advocating uniforms for middle schoolers. Why does he think that style could have so much to do with it though? Surely he has a reason, being somebody that works with kids everyday. For this guy to think that is why their parents are upset about the badges though, that is idiotic. People are worrying about their kids privacy being invaded. I seriously doubt that their kids whining to them about the badge not being "stylish" is on the minds of most objecting parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by pr11fan Believe what you want, that's your problem not mine, ratty hippie looking shirts and jean with holes were the norm at my hs and ms it was bellbottoms, and my point remains the same I got by with levi's and decent shirts from britches and the like. Only an idiot would feel the "need" to buy their kids those clothes to make them fit in, some kids wear nice clothes and still get picked on so clothes are mostly irrelevant. Why not the same damn thing in school, unless you plan on locking them in their room every weekend they're going to see the same people if you take them to the mall/movie theater or whatever, if you can get them levi's for that why not for school. I don't really give a damn if my kids are popular when I have kids, as a matter of fact I almost hope they're not as most of those kids only get into trouble, but I don't need the school to treat them like damn lemmings to make them feel good about themselves, that isn't reality and it's a big part of the problem with kids today, everybody wants to friggin sugarcoat things for them and make them think nothing is ever going to be bad for them, that isn't life and making them wear some retarded uniform isn't going to protect them from it. What you don't realize is, kids quibbiling over clothing disrupts the class work that's trying to be done. Your not trying to protect the kid with a "retarded uniform". Your helping the teacher do more of what thier there for, teach. Teachers have to spend far too much time on diciplin of students then they should have to. Many parents don't get involved as they should with their childrens education, and expect the schools to do it all. When you don't keep little Joey in line at home, he's gonna act the same way at school effecting all the kids in his class. School uniforms takes away one of the problems that has become common in out material world that disrupts the class as a whole. I never needed an excuse to fight, but many a public school kid would up at the dentist or doctors office after school for teasing me about my school uniform.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmag Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller I would say that for some kids, that probably does have something to do with it, but I'm the same idiot that's advocating uniforms for middle schoolers. Why does he think that style could have so much to do with it though? Surely he has a reason, being somebody that works with kids everyday. For this guy to think that is why their parents are upset about the badges though, that is idiotic. People are worrying about their kids privacy being invaded. I seriously doubt that their kids whining to them about the badge not being "stylish" is on the minds of most objecting parents. Well, that was my point. Kids will gripe about any rule set forth. It's what teenagers (or soon to be teenagers) do. But, it sounds to me that he thinks parents might somehow be influenced by it not being stylish. Granted, the article is vague in this regard, but his exact quote is "You know what it comes down to? I believe junior high students want to be stylish. This is not stylish". My point is, this guy is a moron, and missing the point. To even bring up this objection belittles the very seriousness of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Originally posted by herrmag Well, that was my point. Kids will gripe about any rule set forth. It's what teenagers (or soon to be teenagers) do. But, it sounds to me that he thinks parents might somehow be influenced by it not being stylish. Granted, the article is vague in this regard, but his exact quote is "You know what it comes down to? I believe junior high students want to be stylish. This is not stylish". My point is, this guy is a moron, and missing the point. To even bring up this objection belittles the very seriousness of the argument. Point taken. I don't know if I really think this is a "big brother is watching you" type thing though. How can a kid's privacy be invaded at school? So they are going to use the bathroom, bid deal. It's not like they are on candid camera here. Somebody could see they are in the bathroom. Big Deal. As long as it's not taken any further then just monitoring a blip on a screen. I don't have any problems with it. The truth is, kids will be kids, and MOST can't be trusted. I see no problem with administrators using this tool to keep better track of them. No doubt, many of these same objecting parents would sue the school system for every last dime they could get, if their kids skipped out, and got run over in traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr11fan Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 People make assumptions about you, before they even speak to you, based on your appearance. Uniforms would help kids actually learn to "talk" to one another, before they jump to conclusions based on what somebody wears. The whole, "don't judge a book by it's cover" thing. Welcome to reality, go to a bar in jeans and a polo shirt and take a friend in an expensive suit, see who gets more attention, conclusions are based on what you wear whether you're a child or adult the only thing that changes is the styles that are acceptable. What you don't realize is, kids quibbiling over clothing disrupts the class work that's trying to be done. Your not trying to protect the kid with a "retarded uniform". Your helping the teacher do more of what thier there for, teach. Teachers have to spend far too much time on diciplin of students then they should have to. Teachers will always have to discipline students and keep them from quibbling over something, take away clothes and they'll find something else to quibble over, we aren't talking about adults here, they are kids they are going to act stupid, quibble with each other, and generally annoy those in charge of their supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by pr11fan Welcome to reality, go to a bar in jeans and a polo shirt and take a friend in an expensive suit, see who gets more attention, conclusions are based on what you wear whether you're a child or adult the only thing that changes is the styles that are acceptable. The point I'm trying to make, and apparently the point that you keep missing, is that should this be something that MIDDLE school kids are focused on? For many middle-schoolers worrying about what you wear, and your social "status," over takes the drive to get good grades. If you go to a bar dressed in jeans, and a polo shirt, and your buddy goes in an expensive suit. He will probably get more attention. I understand that. However, should middle-school kids be having to deal with this? If you aren't the best looking in a bar, bid deal. Your chances of getting laid that night are significantly decreased. If you are obsessed with worrying about your clothes in middle-school. Your grades are likely dropping. Don't you see the difference here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I'll chime in. I understand the worries, but here in the school district that I work for, we are thinking about installing a fingerprinting/gps system on our school buses and in our schools. Lost student situations happen EVERY day. 99% of the time, the child has gone with a friend or parent that doesn't have custody. About 2 months ago, we had a Special Needs kid that didn't get home. He hid in a drain pipe for over 5 hours because he got a bad report card. The mother had come to terms with the fact that he was dead. It was hard, I was the representative from our school district dealing with her. I've never seen anything like that before, someone who was sure their child was kidnapped or dead. We had over 30 cops out and bloodhouds looking for the child. Steps were being taken to activate the amber alert. Just as that call was being made, he walked home, covered with mud. He said someone chased him from the bus stop. After a few hours, he finally admitted he made the whole story up. We deal with lesser situations like this on a daily basis. EVERY parent says their kid would NEVER go somewhere they were not supposed to, but again, nearly every time, the child has gone to a friends house or is out playing in the neighborhood. We know that many parents will be against the fingerprinting system because of the privacy issues and this is the one reason it may not happen in the next 5 years or so. I'm all for it. I remember balling my eyes out after having to deal with that mother who thought her child was dead. My brother was with me, he doesn't even work for the school system, but we were both out with the police until after 10 pm, neither of us had the heart to stop looking. So when someone talks about privacy and big brother, in THIS situation, I just think about that mother. I'm as anti big brother as anyone, but this is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by pr11fan Teachers will always have to discipline students and keep them from quibbling over something, take away clothes and they'll find something else to quibble over, we aren't talking about adults here, they are kids they are going to act stupid, quibble with each other, and generally annoy those in charge of their supervision. The point is that teachers shouldn't have to diciplin as much as they do. Yes were talkin about kids, but a kid is a direct reflection of the parents. Kids don't act stupid at school if they don't at home. I understand that kids will be kids, but within reason. Diciplin and respect for others has to come from the home life they lead, yet many parents are too caught up in their own little worlds to do their job properly as a parent. Then they whine that their kid isn't making the grade, blame the school and teachers when he/she is in the office for disrupting the class and their called in for a meeting. If they all have to have the same basic dress, limit the jewlery, and the shoe options, it greatly limits what they have to quibble about. That's the idea behind school uniforms. They shouldn't quibble about anything during class to be honest. In this day and age, they should be removed from the class being you can't spank them. I went to a Catholic School, so I'm a firm believer in corpral punishment in schools. Very old saying............"Spare the rod, spoil the child." If you disrupted the class, or even talked to another student, you got wacked. No, I don't think a child should be beaten, but a good wack in the butt goes very far, more so when it's in front of the entire class. Sorry to head so far off the original topic................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du7st Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 If you treat children like they are dumb animals, they will act like dumb animals. I haven't read every post but whoever mentioned control as the the important issue here is dead on. The more you give in the more control they take. The problem is that these people are sending their children to school in the first place. If 50% of those parents yanked their children out of that school, the new policy would be crushed. Of course, I would not subject my children to that school in the first place but that is another topic. I'll take my chances folks. When did we come to accept the ridiculous notion that killers and rapists are around each corner? I feel safe. Really. Honest. I don't quiver in fear over a Mexican or an Arab terrorist stealing my children's lunch money on the way to school. Is everyone else THAT scared? How far are you prepared to go to barter privacy for safety? If you cannot define a solid line, then I am against your efforts here and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 du7st, what privacy does a kid have to lose in school? Are they planning on fornicating behind the bleachers or something? What privacy are you talking about. It's school. Edit: What's the problem with administrators having a tool that helps them keep track of your kid better. A parent only has 2 or 3 kids to keep track of. Schools have hundreds. They could use a little help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du7st Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller du7st, what privacy does a kid have to lose in school? Are they planning on fornicating behind the bleachers or something? What privacy are you talking about. It's school. Ahh - but we are talking about a whole new set of problems here Painkiller. Children have been robbed of their privacy. It is a big problem that goes way beyond tracking their physical movements with RFID. You assume that I am OK with the status quo of today's schools. You would be dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 and yes, absolutely, it is about control. Don't you want your kids teachers to have "control" over them when they are in school, or do you want the kids running the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I think what seems to be a point, of those opposed. Is that they want the kid to be able to see for HIS/HERSELF that they should go to class, not skip, without having to be monitored to ensure that they do. At some point, yes, the kid has to know right from wrong on their own without having to be "forced" into doing the right thing. Many, not all, middle-schoolers are not mature enough to make the right decision, and will "test the waters" if given the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr11fan Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 If you are obsessed with worrying about your clothes in middle-school. Your grades are likely dropping. Don't you see the difference here? It's already been said but it bears repeating, if a child is that obsessed with clothes and can't socialize without them perhaps the parent needs to take a look in the mirror and see if they've been doing their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du7st Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller and yes, absolutely, it is about control. Don't you want your kids teachers to have "control" over them when they are in school, or do you want the kids running the show? No, I would rather not have my children controlled by people who were the worst students among their peers in college and use their unions to negotiate higher and higher salaries for themselves all while student performance continues to decline. As a product of the public school system, it took me until recently to realize just how bad the experience was for myself and my classmates. If you send your children to public school, I suggest you read some thought provoking articles and books on the subject. It may change your perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by du7st If you treat children like they are dumb animals, they will act like dumb animals. I haven't read every post but whoever mentioned control as the the important issue here is dead on. The more you give in the more control they take. The problem is that these people are sending their children to school in the first place. If 50% of those parents yanked their children out of that school, the new policy would be crushed. Of course, I would not subject my children to that school in the first place but that is another topic. I'll take my chances folks. When did we come to accept the ridiculous notion that killers and rapists are around each corner? I feel safe. Really. Honest. I don't quiver in fear over a Mexican or an Arab terrorist stealing my children's lunch money on the way to school. Is everyone else THAT scared? How far are you prepared to go to barter privacy for safety? If you cannot define a solid line, then I am against your efforts here and now. Do you have kids? What part of Jersey are ya in? There are parts of Jersey City, Newark, and Hoboken you don't stop for red lights after dark or you may never be seen again. I come from the north east. A close friend in high school was raped and murdered 25 yards from her house by two drunks that lived in the neighborhood who happened to be leaving a bar and saw her walking home from the library at 7:00 pm. Nobody really knows the person next door as well as the think. Fl has a state sex offender database, and there are two living within 3 miles of my home. Don't know if Jersey has one. How exactly is all of this effecting a kids privacy? Stopping them from cutting class. Burning joints behind the school? Necking in the stair well? Vandelizing the school? If you don't think this goes on in middle school, you need to wake up. Schools are resposable for your childs safety, and as Code said, if you can't locate a kid during the day there's a problem. Never mind the liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by du7st No, I would rather not have my children controlled by people who were the worst students among their peers in college and use their unions to negotiate higher and higher salaries for themselves all while student performance continues to decline. As a product of the public school system, it took me until recently to realize just how bad the experience was for myself and my classmates. If you send your children to public school, I suggest you read some thought provoking articles and books on the subject. It may change your perspective. Oh, I see. Because a person teaches in a public school they were the bottom of their class in college. It's all to clear to me now, thanks for the enlightenment.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by pr11fan It's already been said but it bears repeating, if a child is that obsessed with clothes and can't socialize without them perhaps the parent needs to take a look in the mirror and see if they've been doing their job. Perhaps, they do. There are a lot parents that need to look in the mirror. In a perfect world, we could just fix the parenting and that would end all the problems. That isn't the world we live in though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du7st Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Originally posted by Pete Oh, I see. Because a person teaches in a public school they were the bottom of their class in college. It's all to clear to me now, thanks for the enlightenment.......... You know exactly what I meant. If we are going to talk let's talk. I don't have time to beat around the bush by being PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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