Matador36 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Wouldn't the threat of Cooley and pass catching TE open up the passing game by getting the safeties off of Coles and company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 read this thread http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90261 and you too will understand why Miller would be a wasted pick for us, first round or 2nd day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by Oldskool read this thread http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90261 and you too will understand why Miller would be a wasted pick for us, first round or 2nd day. sorry oldskool i already debunked why your reasoning is invalid. Just read a couple posts down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by Gibbs4Life sorry oldskool i already debunked why your reasoning is invalid. Just read a couple posts down Apparently you didnt read my response, debunking your post. posted on February-2nd-2005 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Oldskool Click here to Send Oldskool a Private Message Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote :Originally posted by Gibbs4Life You also forget that one of the main reason gibbs kept that extra tightend on the line was to help out ray brown. Forty year old men have a pretty hard time against fast defensive ends. Especially with the great ends in our division. Think about it. Strahan, umenyori ( he emerged this season), kearse and burgess, and greg ellis. He realized if we didn't get help over to brown against guys like these ramsey and brunnell were going to get messed up. Hopefully with the return of jansen we won't need that constant blocking tightend. We can send him out on passes sometimes. And heath miller is the best catching tightend in the draft. But if he does need to block heath miller is also one of the best. It doesnt matter if Brown is there or Jansen or Ogden for that matter, the TE stays home in this offense because we are a run first offense and teams blitz and load up the box with extra defenders to stop Portis. Miller is a nice player and will be a good fit in some other teams offense but he’d be as useless as a tit on a bull in our system. On average with a standard blocking scheme you have 5 lineman defending 4 rushers. With zone blitzing and more men in the box you need that extra 2 blockers (TE and H-back) to account for those defenders that come free or to help in the run game. Last edited by Oldskool on February-2nd-2005 at 04:11 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by Oldskool Apparently you didnt read my response, debunking your post. posted on February-2nd-2005 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Oldskool Click here to Send Oldskool a Private Message Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote It doesnt matter if Brown is there or Jansen or Ogden for that matter, the TE stays home in this offense because we are a run first offense and teams blitz and load up the box with extra defenders to stop Portis. Miller is a nice player and will be a good fit in some other teams offense but he’d be as useless as a tit on a bull in our system. On average with a standard blocking scheme you have 5 lineman defending 4 rushers. With zone blitzing and more men in the box you need that extra 2 blockers (TE and H-back) to account for those defenders that come free or to help in the run game. Last edited by Oldskool on February-2nd-2005 at 04:11 PM sorry about that i didn''t see that but i just redebunked your debunking so ill just show that real fast like: The only reason were a run all the time offense is cause last year we had no receivers to catch the ball We basically had no passing game. So we escentially had to run causing teams to load the box. If we had weapons like heath miller teams couldn't load the box all the time. We got blitzed out of our mind last season, but we never made teams pay for it. Have some one like heath miller come out on a delay block or as a check down would really force teams not to blitz the house every time, and it helps free up the run. Not to mention when he is needed to block he is an excellent blocker. Also i think your under estimating gibbs ability to adapt to utilize a good player. Just look at how he adapted to get cooley into more and more plays at the end of the season. At the end he really started to utilize cooley to his full potential, i think gibbs could get the same out of miller and that would be scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat~man Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by Montilar How can we forget those 8 catches all season long and 4 td's. Oh, those 4 td's came because the defenses were keeping a close eye on Cooley as he was our main red zone threat.... Royal was NOT the first or second options.... Ramsey had to wait for him. Hope he's cleared the case of dropsies he had beginning the year.... yea i didnt ay royal was freakin shockey or anything , im not even saying hes our best TE , point is dumb dumb we have Young Talent at the TE position to work with so drafting a TE with the ninth overall pick is mindless considering all our holes that need filled and TE is not one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaSkinsNut Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 yea i didnt say royal was freakin shockey or anything , im not even saying hes our best TE , point is dumb dumb we have Young Talent at the TE position to work with so drafting a TE with the ninth overall pick is mindless considering all our holes that need filled and TE is not one of them Actually Royal is our best TE and that's a problem. He's ok as a backup or 2nd TE for some sets but we need a TE who can both catch and block well. With the way the illegal contact rules were enforced this season we saw an explosion in production from the TE position. Having a viable pass catcher covered by linebackers or a safety is a very exploitable situation. A guy like Miller can do for us what Whitten did for dallas, Heap does for Baltimore, or Crumpler does for Atlanta. We'd have a player who can contribute as a blocker or receiver. We know the way Gibbs did things 20 some odd years ago where TE's only blocked, but the league has changed and we saw a little of that this year where Rasby went out often on play action. (Later done by Royal) That arguement where TE's only block in Gibbs offense doesn't have merrit anymore. Gibbs said he likes to steal from everyone and this is one area of high offensive production that shouldn't be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck812 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I liked the way Royal was playing at the end of the year and I kinda think the coaching staff did too. Picking Miller would be somewhat of a suprize here but stranger things have happened and I wouldnt be completely against it. It would give us another redzone target which is what we need but I still think MW is the target if his forty times stay were they are at. If he increases them much he wont be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Dave Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 If we draft Miller, I'll be amazed. I feel that Cooley will be a productive TE in Gibbs system. If we don't get a Top WR. in FA. We will draft the best one. Williams, Edwards, or Clayton. Does anybody else feel like that Rock is on the hot seat: on the way out? I think he might be gone soon. I always liked him, but I think he might be released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtyler42 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 WE DONT NEED HEATH MILLER... The TE in Gibbs O is a glorified tackle, he uses his HB as the pass reciever and we have Cooley for that... We need to focus on WR, DL, and OL this off-season...TE is not a position that stood out this yr as a glaring weakness, Royal and Cooley filled these roles successfully and were our leading redzone threats...If we added a TE it would be one that wa a vast improvement in blocking over Royal and Cooley... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matador36 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by VaSkinsNut Actually Royal is our best TE and that's a problem. He's ok as a backup or 2nd TE for some sets but we need a TE who can both catch and block well. With the way the illegal contact rules were enforced this season we saw an explosion in production from the TE position. Having a viable pass catcher covered by linebackers or a safety is a very exploitable situation. A guy like Miller can do for us what Whitten did for dallas, Heap does for Baltimore, or Crumpler does for Atlanta. We'd have a player who can contribute as a blocker or receiver. We know the way Gibbs did things 20 some odd years ago where TE's only blocked, but the league has changed and we saw a little of that this year where Rasby went out often on play action. (Later done by Royal) That arguement where TE's only block in Gibbs offense doesn't have merrit anymore. Gibbs said he likes to steal from everyone and this is one area of high offensive production that shouldn't be ignored. Good point, he also has a HB in Portis that doesn't fit his style of offense of 20 years ago but he made it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 The only Wahoos I am interested in are Elton Brown and Chris Canty. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 It is so nice to read some lucid reasoning re: Heath Miller. I like Health Miller. If we get him with the 60th pick, I'd say, sure -- why not? But TE is not an area of need and he likely isn't a very good fit w/this offense. I'd like to have him like I'd like to have a gold top Les Paul -- wow, what a nice luxury. Coles is a potential deep threat, but in the Gary Clark sense -- quicker than fast and not very tall. My only reservation about drafting Mark Clayton -- of whom I'm very fond even if he did go to Oklahoma -- is that he's a similar type receiver. Troy Williamson becomes an interesting option later in the 1st b/c he has size & speed. In my opinion, we're going to let Smoot walk b/c he's asking for too much money & we'll draft Pac Man Jones & it will be siiiick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrfriedm Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by VaSkinsNut Cooley and Miller would be absolutely sick together. Espicallyw ith Coles and Jacobs who can stretch the field. :doh: Well I guess we'll never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Well I guess we'll never know I hope yr right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saragoth Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Originally posted by Gohan17 I will say I love Heath Miller and would love to have him on this team. That said though we already have a pretty good young TE in Cooly and we need a good number 2 WR to go run with Coles so does drafting him do much for us? If this was college then running with two recieving TE and a WR would be interesting but we can't really do that in the NFL. Cooley is an Hback.. Not a TE... People get confused with this quite often, but a lot of the younger guys won't really understand what an H-Back is because they aren't widely used.. H-back is a completely different position then TE. It's hybrid between Tight End and FULL back.. Sure he can be used as a TE but that's generally not going to be his position on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 After reviewing the posts in this thread, it becomes painfully clear some of us have no clue what the role of the TE is in Coach Gibbs' scheme. The TE (see Don Warren/Doc Walker) has a pretty succinct job description. It reads: "Block." I would bet Robert Royals receiving numbers are very similar to Warren and Walkers. In fact, I don't recall either scoring 4 touchdowns in a season. They may have, but the point is TE is plan Z in the Gibbs passing game. H-backs are another matter. Clint Didier was the quintessential Gibbs H-back; as is Chris Cooley. They must be equally adept at blocking and receiving. Heath Miller is a pass catching TE who is a decent blocker. Given Royal and Cooley, we have absolutely no need for Miller. He'll probably be a good TE somewhere, but not for the B&G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Ernie5 wrote: In my opinion, we're going to let Smoot walk b/c he's asking for too much money & we'll draft Pac Man Jones & it will be siiiick. Ernie5, you stole my thunder on the Adam Jones pick. Pac-man has a Sean Taylor-esq quality to his game. Absolutely fearless football player. I have him ranked ahead of Rolle.....:2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Sorry Red Zone. It was at about this point last year that I began to obsess on Sean Taylor. The only thing Pac Man doesn't have is size, which is why I think #9 MIGHT be a little early to take him. Then again, if we tade down, we could lose him. What's great about him is he has amazing make-up speed, hits hard, and is a very good tackler. In other words, he plays bigger than 5-9 1/2. We've seen some very effective CBs on the smaller side recently: Ronde Barber Dre Bly Andre Dyson Aaron Glenn DeAngelo Hall (1st rounder last year) Antoine Winfield Ricky Manning, Jr. Pac Man has as much ability as any of them, more than most & he's a feared kick returner. We can start the campaign now, but it really depends on what they do with Smoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Edds Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I am on the Miller bandwagon . . . but not because i am a UVA fan. I went to Clemson, I DO NOT root for UVA - in fact they are one of our biggest rivals and I can come close to saying I hate them - although I would not use the word "hate." I don't think taking MIller at #9 not be a smart move - and I think the coahcing staff above all would be well aware of that. Miller has been projected to go late in the first round, in the mid to late 20's. We have never done good with drafting a WR high in the first round. I agree every year is different . . . but like most of us agree, we need OL help. I know Joe and Mike W will make the best choice for the team. Whether that be a DE or a WR, only they will know that. But I don't think those people kncoking MIller really paid attention to the little things (like blocking technique and pass catching ability) that Miller did over the past two seasons? Did anyone know who Cooley was before we drafted him? Maybe, but did anyone really know how successful he wouod be in the NFL, doubt it. Miller is 6'5 & 255lbs, harldy undersized for any position. We need OL help, and that's usually where the TE lines up - though MIller is multi-dimensional and can spread out. TE's are just as important in the run game as anyone else on the line - and the last I checked Portis wasn't getting much done up the middle, so having someone big enough to help open the corners for Portis - as well as being able to check off of defenders and make clutch cathces is what open the run game - and keep defnse on their toes b/c they will never be 100% sure whether it is a run or pass play. Until the line is shored up, the run game is successful and the WR's start catching the passes they are supposed to - the Offense will continue to struggle. We need help in several different areas, and so I am just of the opinion that by trading down and gaining maybe a few extra picks and filling in some much needed spots - is not that hard of a concept to believe. It is also my opinion that Mike Williams or Braylon Edwards will not just come right into the NFL and make a big enough impact in our offense to make everyone better. Though their salaries sure will at a #9 pick. I guess my point is I hope we trade down in the draft, gain some more picks - lord knows we have plenty of high-priced players that spending #9 money on a WR or DE is too risky. BUt I guess that why I'm not a coach. All you guys who think Miller would be great, don;t stop saying how you feel, and likewise to those who think Williams or Edwards would be the best choice. We are all skins fans so regardless of who we draft, as long as they produce on the field is what matters. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Edds Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 but I will say that I would love to see Justin MIller (CB from Clemson) get drafted by the skins in the 2nd round if Smoot leaves. I know I am biased - but I saw Miller run back over 5 td's in Death Valley. He has mad skils in punt/kickoff returns and made some of the most unbelievable ITN's, the best part was that he was consistantly - consistantly knockin people's heads. As for Gardner being from Clemson, I will always cherish the 50 yard bomb he caught fro Woody Dantzler against USC the year before he was drated (99-00?) to set up a ganme winning field goal wioth ten seconds left. But I felt he was not 1st round material. Too bad it didn;t work out b/c in the right system with the right coaches and right teammates around him he could be a greqat #2 receiver. Hail to em' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newera Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 It's all going to come down to what we do in free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Ernie5 wrote: Sorry Red Zone. It was at about this point last year that I began to obsess on Sean Taylor. The only thing Pac Man doesn't have is size, which is why I think #9 MIGHT be a little early to take him. Then again, if we tade down, we could lose him. What's great about him is he has amazing make-up speed, hits hard, and is a very good tackler. In other words, he plays bigger than 5-9 1/2. E-5, likewise on Sean Taylor. I had him pegged early. As a Mountaineer, I saw both of them play a few times and couldn't help but notice their obvious skills. That game down in the Orange Bowl that WVU lost in a heartbreaker showed me everthing I needed to know about Pac-Man. He was on Winslow like a cheap suit all night. I agree, he is going to be a tough one to draft at #9, but won't be around long, if at all, after that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I'd reach for Pac Man if the situation were right. To Dick Edds (I think), we DO need OL help, but Health Miller, as primarily a blocker, is not worth a 1st round pick. If we go for OL help in the first, draft his teammate Elton Brown. Draft the kid from Washington who played in the Senior Bowl or the RT from Oklahoma. Miller's primarily an underneath pass catcher -- something Cooley and Thrash (not to mention Portis) excel in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Write again E-5. You'll see I've been hyping Elton "Big E" Brown for quite a while. He's a guy you can trade down and get and plug him right in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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