Ghost of Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 January 16, 2005 -- The father of a murdered New Jersey family was threatened for making anti-Muslim remarks online — and the gruesome quadruple slaying may have been the hateful retaliation, sources told The Post yesterday. Hossam Armanious, 47, who along with his wife and two daughters was found stabbed to death in his Jersey City home early Friday, would regularly debate religion in a Middle Eastern chat room, one source said. Armanious, an Egyptian Christian, was well known for expressing his Coptic beliefs and engaging in fiery back-and-forth with Muslims on the Web site paltalk.com. He "had the reputation for being one of the most outspoken Egyptian Christians," said the source, who had close ties to the family. The source, who had knowledge of the investigation, refused to specify the anti-Muslim statement. But he said cops told him they were looking into the exchanges as a possible motive. The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room. "You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange. But Armanious refused to back down, according to two sources who use the Web site. Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy would neither confirm nor deny that cops and prosecutors were looking into the religion motive, saying only that "nothing is being ruled out." But a relative of the mayor who answered the phone at Healy's home said there was information the murders were "religion-related." "There are several theories we are looking into, but we are not commenting on any of them at this time," said Hudson County Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory. Armanious' fervor apparently rubbed off on his daughter, Sylvia — who would have turned 16 yesterday. "She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS. A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment. "When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle. The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross. Also found murdered were the wife, Amal Garas, and the parents' other daughter, Monica. Fred Ayed, the deacon at St. George and St. Shenouda Church, where the deeply religious family attended services, said he's worried that the murders could have a ripple effect. "I am concerned for the safety of our community," said Ayed, who knew Hossam for 30 years. "People are scared because one family was slain like cows," said Moheb Ghabour, publisher of a local newspaper for the Coptic community. Osama Hassan, director of the Islamic Center of Jersey City, described the relationship between Copts and Muslims as cooperative if not friendly. "I think there might be people that can get into physical fights, but not to the point of murder," Hassan said. Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong. "This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything." The FBI confirmed it has been called in to help with the case. Additional reporting by Heather Gilmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Coptics have it very bad in Egypt. They are basically the Egytian version of Eastern Orthodoxy, kinda' like how the Maronites and Melkites in Lebanon relate to the Catholic Church (they don't follow the Pope). The Coptics are Orthodox and follow the same doctrine as the Greek, Russian, Syrian Churches, etcera, but aren't really part of the whole. Many of them are only allowed in Egypt to maintain menial jobs and some are even branded with tattoos. I know a few because they still go to my Church (I am Antiochan Orthodox) from the time before the Coptic Church in this area was built. I just never thought that kind of oppression to Copts would makes its way here. It's sad to see. Although I am 3/4 Sicilian, the small Lebanese part of my family left Lebanon to escape Arabization of the country and the hardline nature of the Muslims who were trying to usurp Lebanon, primarily from Syria and Iran. It's a shame to see people suffer the things here that were probably the reasons they left Egypt. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 Nick I'm somewhat familiar with the oppression you speak of. We should all be very concerned that it worked its way here. Sure, 9/11, WTC 93 and the like, but this thing is going to become more commonplace the more of a certain-type of people we get. No need to tiptoe around it. I'm not owrried about Arab Christians slitting my throat or murdering 8 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Be careful not to call them Arabs, Nick. No lie, my Aunt Tieffa would probably give you a toungue lashing in Arabic if you called her anything other than Lebanese or Phoenecian... Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa, for the most part, are not Arabs. They trace their ancestry to the Phoenecians, Greeks, etcetera. Some become Christian, but that's different. That's another point of contention. Take Lebanon, for example. It's an Arabic-speaking country and has a somewhat Arab identity, but the Christians in the country resist Arabization with all their might. The problem is their numbers are shrinking rapidly, so that voice is rather muted. They have literally no one on their side. No one. They come here to escape it and because our country is now adding Muslims to the list of people we have to feel guilty about distrusting, they can't even come here for safety. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 16, 2005 Author Share Posted January 16, 2005 Ah, OK. Learn something new every day. It would be fair to call them peoples of Semitic origin, though right?(generally) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Yeah, although the people of the ME (other than the Jews) are not really commonly called Semitic, they are. 99% of the caucasians (among others, also) in the ME are Semites, whether or not the are called Semites. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Wait... I thought the Islam religion was a peaceful religion practiced by Muslims. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by Cskin Wait... I thought the Islam religion was a peaceful religion practiced by Muslims. :doh: Wow you are very original! :thumbsup: This is one example of many of the the dangers of fundementalist religious fanatics that are the back bone of every reactionary movement in history. They are endangering every progressive civilization on the planet. This may be one isolated case, but it is a perfect example of how religious extremism can poisen people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhhorus Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by Cskin Wait... I thought the Islam religion was a peaceful religion practiced by Muslims. :doh: yeah, because they're the ONLY violent religion(sarcasm). LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by ntotoro Yeah, although the people of the ME (other than the Jews) are not really commonly called Semitic, they are. 99% of the caucasians (among others, also) in the ME are Semites, whether or not the are called Semites. Nick Persians are not Semitic and they account for more than 1% of the population of the Middle East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty This may be one isolated case, but it is a perfect example of how religious extremism can poisen people. Extremism of ALL types can poison people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamingwolf Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 20 bucks says that if they catch the animals they wont get charged with a hate crime, the victims were christian after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 I hate when people think that "balance" means saying "well extremist murdering nutjobs are there in every group." DUH, but when comparing aggregates and trends, it does no service to the truth to bring up a highly marginalized KKK or Christian Identity movement compared to the worldwide phenomenon of Islamic extremist violence. Nor is it a service to the truth to talk about the Crusades when Islam was founded on the Sword and the very lives of the founders of Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism and the like are vastly different than the life of Muhammad. That there are exhortations to violence and intolerance in the Koran and Hadith and that too many Muslims still hew literally to these parts of the scripture is the problem here, not simplistic comparisons to a much smaller group in another society or religion. Nor do we tolerate an entire FAMILY BEING BUTCHERED and not ask REAL, TOUGH questions because the answers or the questions themselves make some people uncomfortable. Again, I'm not worried about Christians blowing up my plane or slitting the throats of most people(I'm not counting loony moms who burn out their kids eyes because of "demons" or the like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Ghost, you do have a very good point, and islam does a have serious problem right now with its extremeist element. However, it does make sense to highlight our own failures too woo moderate muslims. If we continue to point out thier deficiencies with outright condemnation, we can forgt about winning hearts and minds. The biggest problem is not that the extremists exist, but that the moderates feel that it is the extemiests who are the only ones willing to stand up for them. that must be cured. I think that is why bush makes such a thing about the whole religion of peace thing. That being said, I don' think you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagsbch Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 The Muslim religion is a virus that is spreading across this world like a wild fire. It is a message of hate wrapped with spiritual clothing. It programs it's hosts in Fear of God and gives them all the authoruity in the world to slay Christians and Jews or who ever is not a believer of the cult. The virus takes on a cult like nature with it's fail safe mechanism of telling its host that it will promote God to anger if the host entertains Christianity and such. In other words it has its very own fire walls. We as Christians can only get at the host if they are willing to put down the fire walls, their pride factor plays a huge role in breaking through... Got to go make the doughnuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by SoCalSkins Persians are not Semitic and they account for more than 1% of the population of the Middle East. My fault. Sorry for the confusion. I have a couple friends from Iran who call themselves Persian, so I can empathize since it's similar to Christians in the ME from countries with an Arab identity that truly resent being called Arabs. I just didn't realize that Persians weren't a Semitic people. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Persians are Indo-Aryan Iranians really don't like being called Arabs, it is a long story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Persians are Indo-Aryan Iranians really don't like being called Arabs, it is a long story. Well, that's because they aren't Arabs... I mistakenly thought they were Semitic. That was my fault. There are a lot more people in the ME who don't like being called Arab that you realize. It cracks me up when you see the see the ADC have their symposium in the Spring and they annouce such "Arab-American" speakers as John Sununu, Tony Shalhoub... :doh: Last time I checked, those weren't Arab surnames and no Muslim family names their children John or Tony. My Mother's Maiden name is Atohi, which certainly is not a Muslim or Arab name. The fact that my Mother is half Italian is proof because a Muslim fresh off the boat from the ME wouldn't marry a Christian unless the Christian converted to Islam. Go to the ADC symposium sometime and see this at work. See all the Muslim art and music exhibits and listen to how they preach they have a love for everyone in the region, then look how the St Jude's exhibit (spearheaded by Danny Thomas, aka Muzyad Yakhoob, a Christian) is stuck around the corner, out of the high-traffic areas. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 We should focus on what the Christian did to upset the Muslims. That's the real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nick, To give you an idea of how solid the foundation of Arab supremacy is in Islam, I can refer to my Time-Life Time Frame history books(covers the world in blocks of time) where you'd think the most PC interpretation of history would dominate. Perhaps this happens at other moments(though it seems pretty straightfroward) but even in THAT SERIES it referred to the feeling of Arab superiority that was innate to their expansion and to their newfound and unifying faith. That it is "universal" doesn't remove that. What is funny is that people have long associated Christianity with white or Euro superiority but there's no textual basis for it, whereas Muhammad makes disparaging remarks about blacks(it might be in the Hadith though) and Arab supremacy was part and parcel of the spread of the faith and is still seen in Sudan, not only with the decades long genocide against the southern blacks, but now in Darfur against co-religionist blacks. I think it's an imperialist faith of the Arab peoples and that while anyone can be joined to it, it is essentially an honorary "membership" into the "arab race." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 That bit you just typed reminded me of something from my childhood. The word in Arabic for "servant" or (more commonly) slave is abd, specfically, a male servant or slave. It's also a slang/vulgar colloquialism used to describe blacks. I think we all know the English equivalent. Muhammad referred to Bilal himself as abd or even "raisin headed" or "rasin colored" (loosely translated from Arabic) and this was after Bilal was "freed" by Muhammad. So... how is Christianity suddenly the religious ideology of white, European oppressors and Islam is that of the oppressed and downtrodden trying to acquire freedom? Makes little to no sense to me. That same imperialist sentiment lives today with the Arab countries. Even those who are not Arab (like Lebanon) are forced to develop an Arab identity. It's to the point that you hear Lebanon, you automatically think Arab. I'm surprised Lebanon still has the cedar on her flag and not a star and crescent moon. Even the majority of the people here in the US don't realize there's a difference. Then again most people don't realize that Jews aren't the only Semites, either. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Persians are Indo-Aryan Iranians really don't like being called Arabs, it is a long story. They are are typically categorized as Aryan not Indo-Aryan and yes, they hate being called Arabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nick I'd like to thank you for your insight in this thread. Yes, even for those of us who have a pretty good knowledge of history, it's easy to forget how many peoples have been Arabized, which need not be a terrible thing except that being Arabized is not the same as being Hellenized, as we both know. So we make statements that are based on an inaccurate view of history. But yes, I do find it absurd that so many black Americans convert to Islam as some kind of statement against white oppressors, when the first people to engage in wholesale slave trade of black Africans(and still do...shhhhh) are Arab Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Originally posted by SoCalSkins They are are typically categorized as Aryan not Indo-Aryan and yes, they hate being called Arabs. Hell, even Persians aren't completely uniform. The original Persians, the ones that took over after the Parthians had conquered much of the middle east and the Seleucid domain were not the same as those Parthians, though I imagine there is no "Parthian' ethnic group at this time. That WAS 2000 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 No prob, Nick... I feel bad in a way, because many of my friends are Palestinians and Syrians who are Muslims. I disagree with them, they disagree with me, but it is always respectful. It's just different insight because I come from a different religious outlook. Hell, a Muslim Palestinian friend was the photographer at my Sister's Eastern Orthodox wedding... I still never understood the romantic view with which blacks in America today view Islam. Why do so many flock toward the Religion? It astounds me and kinda' makes me think of the post NavyDave did a couple months ago about blacks defaulting to the Democratic Party. The only reason I can think is that Christianity was the default religion they had after the American slaves were freed. Maybe they felt it wasn't the answer... ? I don't know. Don't even get me started on the slave trade. Human trafficing is worse now than ever. It goes from Muslims in Arab countries in Northern Africa, through Sicily and to Europe and the Middle East. It's a damn shame. The Italians are powerless to stop it from going through their own country because organized crime (shh... that also doesn't exist anymore) controls the Carabineri in Sicily (not so sure about the Carabineri in the peninsula) and even many influential facets in Rome. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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