Germany

[Brave]

Not to trivialize the tragedy in Germany this past week, but a quote like this really ticks me off.

"I never thought anything like this could ever happen in a place like Erfurt," said Thomas Rethfeldt, 18, whose teacher was shot in the head as she opened the door at the start of the shooting.

"I thought this must be a bad film. I thought this kind of thing only happened in America. "

I guess the German school system is a little weak in the History department. Upon hearing of ethnic cleansings, attempted genocides and other atrocities whether in Chechnya, Europe, Africa or the Middle East, my first thought is often: "I thought this kind of thing only happened in Germany."

Sadly, "these types of things" happen all over the world. New Zealand, Scotland, Europe ... everywhere. It's a violent planet we live on. Always has been.

[Pete]

Always will be.

Having worked for a German company for a few years, I found that they still think everybody, and everything is inferior to German. I was informed of this fact the first day I worked for Mr Heinz Schmidt by his shop foreskin, a German National. Although they don’t outwardly say it for the most part, I’ve always felt that underlying tone when dealing with them. This kids statement doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Glenn X]

I wonder if part of this isn't simply just a European thing. For example, I have friends in London, and every now and again they'll toss some remark in my direction like this: "Well, you Americans are just naturally more violent. I mean, you allow private gun ownership and everything. You're always going around and shooting one another over little conflicts."

After informing them that they're operating on a tired old stereotype of America, I then usually enjoy hurling a shopworn stereotype back in their direction: "Don't be too harsh on the United States, though. We did bail your sorry asses out of World War II, after all."

[Brave]

You got that right Genn. If it wasn't for us the whole damn continent would be speaking German. Or Russian.

Also, I think a big part of France's snottiness towards Americans is pure embarassment. But that's another story.

[Pete]

I don't know. I do understand the EUROPEAN thing, but what I've dealt with was pure superiorisim. Is that a word:rolleyes: When you hear on a very regular bassis, "it cant be that inaccurate, it's made by Germans," or "he was factory trained by Germans, you must be wrong," you know it's more then the general attitude Europeans have about Americans.

I've dealt with many Europeans, and also many from South American countries. I worked for an international machinary company. None ever hit me with that type of attitude, only the ones born and raised in the Germany.

I don't base this opinion on this job alone. SW Florida has a very large German population. The city which I live has a higher number of Germans moving in then any other ethnic groups. We have the second largest "Oktoberfest" in the world, second only to Munich. I deal with off the boat Germans every day, being in the service industry. They knock our products, school system, and government on a daily bassis. They come here for financial reasons. Like Mr Heinz always said, "You can always tell who's German, but you can't tell them anything. I really don't hold this against the people as a whole, and have some very good friends from Germany.

I can say that they tend to be very polite, well mannered people, who generally are a pleasure to be with in a non-working situation. They do love their beer.

This shooting is tragic, and I do feel for the families effected by it

[skinsfan44]

Yes, I too am sadden by what happened in Germany. Germany has some of the toughest gun laws in the WORLD, not just Europe. All thoughs gun laws couldn't prevent what had happened.

It is the same thing here, states where there are way to many gun laws have the highest crime. Maryland, where I live(but not for long) have very tough gun laws and we lead the nation in crimes commited with guns. Man, look at Baltimore. Go across the Potomac river to Virginia where there is less gun laws and a right-to-carry law and crime is way down from Marylands.

Every state that has a right-to-carry law, there crime is way down from what it use to be by 35% to 60%, so do gun laws work? I get these facts from the FBI, so I am not making this up. And yes, I am a card carrying member of the NRA(Life Member).:asta:

[Barney B]

You are so right.

One thing I've noticed is you can't tell some Germans anything. A few years ago, a German company was poised to take over the industry I worked in. Eventually, they lost out, because they refused to admit that their product had a small, solveable problem - instead they just ignored it - "It must be perfect, it was made by us!"

Another thing I've noticed is you can't tell some Americans anything.

Yet another thing I've noticed is that once a person has made up their mind on gun control, you can't tell them anything, either. Every new datum that comes along just supports the position they've already staked out, no matter how much it would seem to contradict their position.

People - the world would be so much better without them.

[Talent Wasted at a Desk]

http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={B1311FCC-FBFB-11D2-B228-00105A9CAF88}&doc={B8B308D6-49D7-4727-B88F-56F2CC851624}

i'm not sure if the above link works...anyway, it's from the english-language edition of the frankfurter allgemeine.

pretty sensible op-ed piece about the incident, i think.

i lived in england for a year and have many continental friends. in my experience, many germans/europeans view the U.S. as some sort of abstraction...surely as many americans view the french, germans, et cetera. (and, frankly, as i view southern california or miami.) that is to say, i'm fairly ignorant of the actual place and its people, but i have a socially constructed opinion of them, regardless.

i am not at all surprised to hear a teenaged german boy say such a thing. ticked a bit, but not surprised. compare it to an american thinking that terrorism only happened in the middle east.:gus:

[laurent]

I guess this thread further proves my point of how f*cking detached americans are from the things going on around them. I am German and I'm also black. I've lived in Germany for about 20 years and in the US for about 5 and let me tell you, I can not wait to get the heck out of this narrow minded, racist country.

It's funny, I always hear people ***** and moan about fascist Germany but when it comes to facing their own history Americans tend to conveniently dismiss how this country was built on exploitation and genocide.

Quite frankly ignorant **** like this makes me puke. This kid expressed his own sentiments nothing more and nothing less.

[Barney B]

Originally posted by laurent

I always hear people ***** and moan about fascist Germany but when it comes to facing their own history Americans tend to conveniently dismiss how this country was built on exploitation and genocide.

Agreed, Laurent.

But then, ALL countries were built on exploitation and genocide. Do Americans seem to be the only ones who can't admit it?

[PCS]

Tragic indeed. I certainly wouldn't wish that type of incident on anyone, no matter the country. I think Brave said it pretty well at the end of his first post and Talent that was an interesting and very well put point on abstraction. I certainly wouldn't want to take that lads opinion and say it reflects a majority of others myself, but when I read it I will admit to wondering if this was in fact a view shared by others in Europe.

Laurent, your response there could easily be turned around on you by those who have already posted here. " f*cking detached americans"......."narrow minded, racist country". Watch that glass house of yours sir. A few guys have expressed their own sentiments and yet you use just those to base your comments on? That kind of ignorant **** make you puke too?

I personaly don't think a majority of Americans dismiss our history. We do chose not to dwell on it. It's in the past. Learn from it. Teach it to our children so that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated in the future.

[Brave]

My mentioning of fascist Germany, laurent, was merely to reinforce the narrow-mindedness of the kid's comment.

I'm quite aware of the past history of my own country and I don't REALLY think Germany has or had the market cornered on genocide (though they certainly did set the standard in tight, efficient German fashion, didn't they?). It's the reason I mentioned the other areas of the world where we've seen similar things. I suppose I could have thrown the US in there, but I was thinking more along the lines of recent history. Those are the only events I've heard of as current news.

One of the great things about this country is the freedom. Freedom of speach, freedom of the press, freedom to live your life more or less as you chooose, and the freedom to go elsewhere if you "can not wait to get the heck out of this narrow minded, racist country." If you yearn for the Fatherland so much, by all means go back there. I doubt you'll completely the escape narrow-minded or the racist there either, though.

And after you get there, hook up your computer and come back and we can talk some football.

[Terry]

GlennX posted about Europeans saying "Well, you Americans are just naturally more violent. I mean, you allow private gun ownership and everything. You're always going around and shooting one another over little conflicts."

It's interesting. I grew up in England and the US, and I'd have to say that personal violence was far more prevalent in England that it is here in the states.

I was involved in more fights, saw more gang type violence, encountered more violence at sports events, dances, or any place that people gather, in England then I ever saw here.

Same with razors, shivs, and blades of all kinds.

From the mods and rockers of my young teenage years, greasers and teds before that, to soccer hooligans today, I think that the overall culture in England is far more violent than in the US, and mindless violence is far more prevalent. On an individual level, you're much more likely to get a bottle broken and shoved in your face in England than you are here.

I think that there are more means of releasing tension and anger here, and far less feeling of hopelessness. It tends to mitigate the worst of it.

It wasn't surprising to me that the event in Germany took place in the old East Germany part of the country. Those people haven't assimilated into western culture, don't have the same opportunities, and still feel like second class citizens in their own country. In many ways, the underlying economic tensions that gave rise to marxism, nazi-ism, fascism, and all the other misbegotten european isms are still prevalent in the countries of the old soviet block. And with it comes the propensity for extreme violence.

[Glenn X]

I have a friend who, like you, Terry, spent parts of his childhood in both the U.S. and England. From about the age of 7 to 14, my friend John and his family moved (due to his father's job) to London. According to John, London was a real blast, and by the age of 12 his after-school activities consisted of hanging out with his adolescent pals at pubs, drinking heavily and getting into knock-down, drag-out fights.

Yes, you heard me right. 12!

According to John, this type of behavior was not out of the ordinary at all. In fact, he says that this kind of thing was the norm for most every guy he knew of at his school.

John has since shed the English accent (and what a cute accent it was :laugh: ), but the bad behavior remains. I swear, it's pretty much impossible for he and I to go to a bar anymore and kick back a couple of cold ones without him getting us into some kind of altercation -- and usually for the dumbest of reasons.

"Dude, that guy was looking at me funny. I think he was trying to hit on me," he's likely to explain after the fisticuffs have ended. One time he said this about a guy who was wearing sunglasses, for goodness sake!

At any rate, his rough-and-tumble experience of England, specifically London, certainly seems to be in accord with yours, Terry.

[Terry]

12 is pretty early from my experience, but basically it's up to the publican and who he's willing to let in to the pub and drink.

I'd always heard that you were old enough to drink when you could go into a pub, drink, and not p!ss off the regulars.

I was going to pubs when I was 15, and was able to not make a complete *** of myself.

But I do remember those fights outside of pubs. It was almost a routine: Go to a dance and try to pick up girls; get rebuffed; go to the pub and drink; get drunk; leave at closing and get in a fight with some blokes from another neighborhood, or the local wide boys, or skinheads, or whoever; get your *** kicked or vice versa; go to the fish and chip shop; get full; walk home; throw up; go to bed.

It was the working class zeitgeist of the time, probably still is.

[Pete]

Holy shlitz !! I gotta move to London. Wonder if they still Café race there.

Terry made a very good point about old East Germany. At one point, I was checking out a machine which I had never seen before. I commented that It was a pretty nice machine, and one of the German guy’s working with me got all bent out of shape, telling me it was the biggest piece of junk under the sun. Me being me, I asked how this could be, It was a German made machine. He then gave me a spirited ten minute speech ripping apart anything East German, including the people.

[Terry]

Hey Pete, just mention a Trabant to the German dude and watch turn all kinds of colors

[Pete]

Please Terry, enlighten me if ya could. The last time I said something foreign without knowing what I was actually saying, I got slapped harder then I had ever been, by the hottest Greek chick I ever laied my eyes on. Knowing my bud Dino, he had me tell her I wanted to %($%^:>: $%^+?"one of my sheep.

OPPA !!

[Terry]

Trabant - East German 2 cylinder car made with a fiberglass body - a real POS!. Burns like crazy in a wreck.

But, it'll run on anything - carpet cleaner, solvent, kerosene, what passed for gasoline in the old soviet block, and for some reason they just don't die.

There was a movie with Hackman as a CIA guy, and Barishnikov as a spy to be traded, trying to elude the CIA in Berlin, and in it they steal a Trabant.

[Ian]

Terry

I feel obliged to reply to your interesting personal experience of our more violent overall culture.

You wrote:

"It's interesting. I grew up in England and the US, and I'd have to say that personal violence was far more prevalent in England that it is here in the states.

I was involved in more fights, saw more gang type violence, encountered more violence at sports events, dances, or any place that people gather, in England then I ever saw here.

Same with razors, shivs, and blades of all kinds.

From the mods and rockers of my young teenage years, greasers and teds before that, to soccer hooligans today, I think that the overall culture in England is far more violent than in the US, and mindless violence is far more prevalent. On an individual level, you're much more likely to get a bottle broken and shoved in your face in England than you are here.

I think that there are more means of releasing tension and anger here, and far less feeling of hopelessness. It tends to mitigate the worst of it."

I've never been to Chocolate Town, USA but frankly I think you're not comparing like with like.

There is a problem in England with male alcohol fuelled violence on Friday and Saturday Nights and around football matches, no doubt but to call that overall culture is poor analysis or poor choice of words. Equally, people rarely die from these violent incidents and live to tell the tale and exaggerate their own role in the minor skirmish.

I think England's inner cities are increasingly involved in Ye drug fuelled violence and this is where we have a long way to catch up with our friends in the States.

One final point, I like watching the West Wing and found Toby's views and statistics on the number of gun related deaths in US compared with other countries astonishing. Yes, tragedies like the original thread's point happen worldwide but generally statistics will bear out that you are more likely to die from gun related crime in the US than elsewhere.

[PCS]

I could easily go into a long "violence is a world wide problem " and post all kinds of links ect.. I could go on to state that one brand of violence,( in the case of this thread gun related), does not necessarily cancel out other forms of violence, knives ect... I could go on for some time on deaths by other means or world wide homicides and then go about poulation ratios and so on. I won't. It would appear that the battle lines a drawn huh?

[Terry]

Ian,

I didn't say you were more likely to be killed in England, merely that you were more likely to encounter personal violence there.

And I didn't claim that it was based on anything other than personal experience. Not scientific perhaps, but relevant to me.

Americans talk it, and the culture, as portrayed by the media, TV, and Hollywood, makes it appear that it's ubiquitous. But the England of my early days was a more violent place.

[Glenn X]

Originally posted by Ian

I've never been to Chocolate Town, USA but frankly I think you're not comparing like with like.

So, what you see as an apples to oranges comparison is what you're taking issue with here, correct, Ian?

Originally posted by Ian

I like watching the West Wing and found Toby's views and statistics on the number of gun related deaths in US compared with other countries astonishing.

The last time I checked, England was a country of about 50 million people, while the U.S. is a country of almost 300 million. If that doesn't constitute apples to oranges right there, I don't know what does.

[Barney B]

Terry, I'm surrounded by Brits where I work - the company was founded in England.

And they tell me similar stories about England and Scotland. Basically, they say that if you leave your own town, you're asking for an a**-whipping. If you stay in your own town, you're asking for TWO a**-whippings.

It's a cultural thing, I guess, for them to fight a lot and/or to TELL me that they fight a lot.

[Terry]

My son is 10 years old. I'd say that he's only been in one fight in his life where somebody got bloody - a nosebleed or cut lip.

But that time in England, I'd been in at least a dozen fights where someone was bleeding and/or bruised.

I don't know why it was like that. My own theory is that England is (or was when I was a kid) a very compressed place. You didn't have to go too far before you were someplace else. The next village could be a mile and a half down the road, just over the next hill. But if we saw those kids in the fields and woods we were playing in, then there was gonna be a fight.

When I lived in London, we'd fight kids from the next block of flats barely 200 yds away for basically the same reasons.

It seems that there was a strong territorial element that I didn't find (or notice) here. I also think that many kids were free'er to be off by themesleves, and at an earlier age in that place and time.

Read the book Lord Of The Flies (those were English kids). It didn't seem far fetched at all to me.