SnyderShrugged Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Baculus Oh please, skin-n-vegas, non-Christians have already been trashed in this thread. It is amusing how some Christians have no problem with insulting someone outside of their faith, and yet, when someone says anything that they infer as "insultive," they become hyper-sensitive and defensive. And I would still like to say a cage match between the Gods. Wouldn't that be exiciting? Thor vs Zeus vs Yahweh vs Allah! And it was a JOKE - you need some thick skin. Sheesh. I didn't insult anyone's faith, have a little bit of humor. Some Christians really have a persecution complex (no pun intended). I must have missed the spot in this thread where a Christian trashed any non-Christian for their views. Please enlighten me. I may honestly have missed it, but I looked and didnt see specifics. Is it possible that you interpret disagreement with ridicule? You have ridiculed the Christian faith. I don't begrudge you the right to do that, I just think a little more class is in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by rebornempowered The oppression of someone because of their skin color is always immoral. The morality of it never changed, the laws did. I beg to differ. How do you decide what is moral or not anyway? Do you go by what makes sense or do you go by the superstitions of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan51 If a doctor told you that you were dying of cancer would you accuse him of not having humility because he was the bearer of bad news? No, but I'd get a second opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty I beg to differ. How do you decide what is moral or not anyway? Do you go by what makes sense or do you go by the superstitions of religion. If we continually live by the premise that morality is fluid and changes with the times, we will ultimately lose all that is good in our society. Morality does not change, only the impact of guilt on the individuals conscience. Our morals are our own as individuals, but there are core principles that must be followed and the governemnt is the only entity beyond vigilante justice that can have oversight. It's the only option, morality is legislated only out of a need for oversight and accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skin-n-vegas If we continually live by the premise that morality is fluid and changes with the times, we will ultimately lose all that is good in our society. Morality does not change, only the impact of guilt on the individuals conscience. Our morals are our own as individuals, but there are core principles that must be followed and the governemnt is the only entity beyond vigilante justice that can have oversight. It's the only option, morality is legislated only out of a need for oversight and accountability. Some morals become out dated for examply, some Jews don't mix meat and dairy, that is out dated. Others like the ones based on human empathy, ie don't murder, rob etc. stil make sense, and will continue to make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Some morals become out dated for examply, some Jews don't mix meat and dairy, that is out dated. Others like the ones based on human empathy, ie don't murder, rob etc. stil make sense, and will continue to make sense. Makes sense to who, Americans? What about places where cannibalism is still going on, or places where stealing is part of life? It's been part of those countries for centuries. Does that make it ok? They would say so, so who are we to tell them it's wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebornempowered Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Some morals become out dated for examply, some Jews don't mix meat and dairy, that is out dated. Others like the ones based on human empathy, ie don't murder, rob etc. stil make sense, and will continue to make sense. But who determines this? It could make sense to murder. Common sense is relative. Please answer two questions: Is murder always wrong? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan51 Makes sense to who, Americans? What about places where cannibalism is still going on, or places where stealing is part of life? It's been part of those countries for centuries. Does that make it ok? They would say so, so who are we to tell them it's wrong? No it obviously doesn't make it ok, I thought I just explained that in my other post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by rebornempowered But who determines this? It could make sense to murder. Common sense is relative. Please answer two questions: Is murder always wrong? Why? How do you define murder? Please, if you fall back on God as the source of morals, you're going to lose. WHat was acceptable in that era(when the Bible was written) is far below the standards we set now. For instance, it is never written in the Bible that slavery should be abolished. Yet it is abhorrent to our sensibilities today. As for murder, what do you mean? You can kill in self-defense. War seems to be given a different treatment in the theology springing from the Hebraic and Christian moral traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by rebornempowered But who determines this? It could make sense to murder. Common sense is relative. Please answer two questions: Is murder always wrong? Why? Objective vs. Subjective morality, very complicated stuff. I don't have a clear idea if it is totally one or another. It is hard to argue that anything is objective or absolute since there are so many contradicting scenerios that could always lead to an immoral event no matter what is chosen. I will get back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I must have missed the spot in this thread where a Christian trashed any non-Christian for their views.Please enlighten me. I may honestly have missed it, but I looked and didnt see specifics. Is it possible that you interpret disagreement with ridicule? You have ridiculed the Christian faith. I don't begrudge you the right to do that, I just think a little more class is in order. A couple of points, skins-n-vegas: 1. Skinsfan51 said "Answer: I'll keep my kids home, teach them the Bible and how to be wholesome, courteous, respectful citizens in society while you send your kid to public school to be indoctrinated with a THEORY (singular) that tells them that there is no purpose to life, they are animals (which they will gladly receive and then take the dance floor to do their "freak dance" and act like animals), and watch many of them commit suicide because they see no reason to live. " He stated this belief more than once. I didn't think it was the classiest remark either, so I told him I disgreed with it. 2. Also, I said, "LOL. How about a cage match between Yahweh and Zeus? "MY God can kick your God's butt!" I don't remember many Christians using "Yahweh" these days, as opposed to God. Also, it was a joke in response to someone making a remark about "Zeus." Sorry, but I don't see anything in this remark that would be offensive to Christians. Nor do I see anything that is "trashing Christians" in this remark. In fact, you seemed to have missed the irony of the joke. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skin-n-vegas If we continually live by the premise that morality is fluid and changes with the times, we will ultimately lose all that is good in our society. So I assume you, personally, do not mix dairy and meat, don't wear clothes of mixed threads, avoid pork and shellfish, and would force your daughter to marry the brother of her husband if the husband died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black So I assume you, personally, do not mix dairy and meat, don't wear clothes of mixed threads, avoid pork and shellfish, and would force your daughter to marry the brother of her husband if the husband died. Is he Jewish? You? It was written to Jews. Are we bound by it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan51 Is he Jewish? You? It was written to Jews. Are we bound by it now? Hmm. So the rules of morality can change depending on what group you belong to? That is, there is no universal morality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty No it obviously doesn't make it ok, I thought I just explained that in my other post. But why is it wrong? Based upon what standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black Hmm. So the rules of morality can change depending on what group you belong to? That is, there is no universal morality? You quoted from a Jewish book. So obviously those rules didn't apply to gentiles. It's just factual history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 upon my standard of what makes me feel good I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan51 You quoted from a Jewish book. So obviously those rules didn't apply to gentiles. It's just factual history. Was it a different God? Who were the followers of the One True God when those books were written? Did He have any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black Hmm. So the rules of morality can change depending on what group you belong to? That is, there is no universal morality? Good questions as usual An. I can provides some thoughts on this. 1. As a Christian (and "Spiritual Semite") that believes Christ is the Son of God, I can also believe He is free to change His laws as He sees fit. This in no way conflicts with a belief that there are absolutes as handed down by Him. 2. There is a difference between "Ritual" laws and "Moral" laws. Moral laws being unchanged and absolute whereas Ritual laws (such as dietary laws) are more of a matter of discipline for some other reason. In the case of the dietary laws it has been asserted that this was for health reasons. No surprise in my opinion that God would be aware of such concerns and would guide His people accordingly. Another example would be the laws regarding the sacrifice of animals for one's sins. From the Christian point of view this law would no longer be necessary due to the sacrifice of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 The distinction between Ritual laws and Moral laws sounds like a good one. (It would explain, for example, why the Ten Commandments are upheld but other dictates seem to have fallen by the wayside.) I'm a bit more uncomfortable with the "absolute" laws not being in tension with the "free to change them" scenario. Is this because different laws might apply in different circumstances, and that the circumstances that necessitated a law might no longer obtain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black The distinction between Ritual laws and Moral laws sounds like a good one. (It would explain, for example, why the Ten Commandments are upheld but other dictates seem to have fallen by the wayside.) I'm a bit more uncomfortable with the "absolute" laws not being in tension with the "free to change them" scenario. Is this because different laws might apply in different circumstances, and that the circumstances that necessitated a law might no longer obtain? I'm not sure I follow your question. I'm just a simple caveman. Your multi-syllable words frighten and scare me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu I'm not sure I follow your question. I'm just a simple caveman. Your multi-syllable words frighten and scare me. Skinny Lawyer: Your Honor, I am so convinced of my case that I can afford to waste the court's precious time by ranking the celebrities! Lionel Hutz, Attorney-at-Law: Oooh! He's gonna win!! Simplified question: Why can laws by absolute and yet changeable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 This "free to change them" idea doesn't make much sense. If God wants people to follow him so much that he lays out specific guidelines in the form of 613 mitzvot(I converted to Judaism back in the day lol) then why not just MAKE HIMSELF KNOWN? I mean, once you get to the 613 commandment level, why not just get it over with and appear to everyone at all time? Also, how does one reconcile the apparent acceptance on the part of the ancient Jews that other gods existed, but that THEIR GOD, Yahweh, was superior with the new conception of a "god for all people?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black Skinny Lawyer: Your Honor, I am so convinced of my case that I can afford to waste the court's precious time by ranking the celebrities! Lionel Hutz, Attorney-at-Law: Oooh! He's gonna win!! Simplified question: Why can laws by absolute and yet changeable? I don't think absolute moral laws are changeable (Rape, murder and such are always wrong for instance.) I am open to our understanding of morals being "enhanced" as well as how we apply the morals being up for debate. Caveman Attorney: It's just "Cirroc", your Honor.. and, yes, I'm ready. [ approaches the jury box ] Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes when I fly to Europe on the Concorde, I wonder, am I inside some sort of giant bird? Am I gonna be digested? I don't know, because I'm a caveman, and that's the way I think! But whatever world you're from, I do know one thing - in the 20 years from March 22nd, 1972, when he first ordered that extra nicotine be put into his product, until February 25th, 1992, when he issued an inter-office memorandum stopping the addition of that nicotine, my client was legally insane. And, for that reason, I ask that you fine him.. not guilty. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I don't think absolute moral laws are changeable (Rape, murder and such are always wrong for instance.) I am open to our understanding of morals being "enhanced" as well as how we apply the morals being up for debate. Slavery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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