Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin This "free to change them" idea doesn't make much sense. If God wants people to follow him so much that he lays out specific guidelines in the form of 613 mitzvot(I converted to Judaism back in the day lol) then why not just MAKE HIMSELF KNOWN? I mean, once you get to the 613 commandment level, why not just get it over with and appear to everyone at all time? In short, I can say I don't know as I don't speak for Him. But, I suspect that it is part of Him giving us free will to choose Him. If God appeared in the sky tonight for all to see one would think we would have a world full of believers. In my opinion, God calls all of us to Him in various different ways. Those who have the ability to willfully choose to follow Him are the ones he really wants as they really want to be with Him. (I don't like how that last sentence sounded as I believe God wants us all to be with Him. Bear with me on the articulation.) Kind of like when your kids meet you at the door when getting home from work in that they choose to run over to you and give you a hug. It wouldn't be the same if it were forced or contrived. Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin Also, how does one reconcile the apparent acceptance on the part of the ancient Jews that other gods existed, but that THEIR GOD, Yahweh, was superior with the new conception of a "god for all people?" [/b] Perhaps even their understanding of God at the time wasn't fully developed. The story of the Bible slowly shows God revealing more of Himself and His plan to man as time progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 To the Theists who receive morality from God: Is God, bound by absolute morals also? He would have to be wouldn't he, if morality is truly absolute it would be absolute with or without God. It seems to me that the religious believe that God dictates morality arbitrarily. if God told you it would be moral to rape and immoral to help others would you believe it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebornempowered Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin Also, how does one reconcile the apparent acceptance on the part of the ancient Jews that other gods existed, but that THEIR GOD, Yahweh, was superior with the new conception of a "god for all people?" When I read the Old Testament I don't see that. I see the passages where other gods are mocked and made fun of for being silent. They are referred to as false gods. That is an interesting point of study. I am going to dig deep into some passages and study the history and original Hebrew. Thanks for the idea. Some examples of mocking: Elijah on Mt. Carmel and Jeremiah 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black Slavery? Slavery too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty To the Theists who receive morality from God: Is God, bound by absolute morals also? He would have to be wouldn't he, if morality is truly absolute it would be absolute with or without God. It seems to me that the religious believe that God dictates morality arbitrarily. if God told you it would be moral to rape and immoral to help others would you believe it? For example, Abraham's [aborted] sacrifice and Lot's "bargaining" with God on the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu Slavery too. But there are so many passages like this one: Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by rebornempowered When I read the Old Testament I don't see that. I see the passages where other gods are mocked and made fun of for being silent. They are referred to as false gods. That is an interesting point of study. I am going to dig deep into some passages and study the history and original Hebrew. Thanks for the idea. Some examples of mocking: Elijah on Mt. Carmel and Jeremiah 10. Question, when the Egyptian priests can do everything the Hebrew god(through Moses) does, but not replicate the great plagues, what does that say to you? THat they have power, but not the power of Yahweh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black For example, Abraham's [aborted] sacrifice and Lot's "bargaining" with God on the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. One of the biggest problems for the Orthodox Jew and the Christian is reconciling this very old Oriental despot image of God and the more Gnostic/mystery cult Jesus that appears in the 1st century. The fact is, the Yahweh of the Old Testament is an old-fashioned God-King, but not on Earth. He's no more moral than the Egyptian Gods or Assyrian or any of them. Hell, there is even a hint of the sacrifice of firstborn when Abraham is told to kill his son. We know that this type of sacrifice did indeed happen but in the Ba'al Moloch cults. Perhaps it was once a part of Hebraic tradition and they rejected it(rightly, of course) and this passage reveals that? See, the Bible as canon, wasn't even solidifed until 400 BCE, not even 1-2000 BC. This is a problem as we know there were different "authors" of the text. The Priestly, the Yawhist, the Elohist and...I think there's one more. When viewed from the perspective of it being a combined oral and written tradition and that it is a MYTHOLOGY and cosmology, the Bible makes sense in most ways. When viewed as the immutable word of an Eternal and Loving God, it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black But there are so many passages like this one: Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." While this passage doesn't say slavery per se, I do know that the Bible does speak of slavery. My understanding of slavery in those times is that one could be made a slave for going into debt or even by selling themselves into slavery. Additionally, as I have pointed out before in another thread God did regulate things that He necessarily didn't agree with (another topic). Consider this verse from Deuteronomy 15. And if thy brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. 13 And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: 14 thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him. 15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing today. An following on the last verse, look what God did to Egypt for their enslavement of the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black For example, Abraham's [aborted] sacrifice and Lot's "bargaining" with God on the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Aborted by God. That was a test of Abraham's faith. But don't you see the foreshadowing there? God the Father was then willing to sacrifice His own Son. With that and Lot's "bargaining", I don't really see the conflict here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin Question, when the Egyptian priests can do everything the Hebrew god(through Moses) does, but not replicate the great plagues, what does that say to you? THat they have power, but not the power of Yahweh. Or that Satan is behind their "power". Just an alternative view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 But Stu, while the slave under Hebrew law might be treated more kindly than other cultures, that is not really a glowing endorsement of the universal, loving and merciful God we're told about. IN fact, I'd say the idea of "mercy" is connected very much with a King. The "Law" is such that you can be executed or flogged, but the King by virtue ONLY OF HIS POWER, decides to have mercy on you. Well, thanks. Again, the Middle Eastern tyrant-King concept. As for what God does to the Egyptians. One--it's not solid history according to available evidence. The historic Pharaoh Ra-moses exaggerated his accomplishments. Secondly, Yahweh''s wrath is demonstrated because the Hebrews are His Chosen People, not because of the evil of slavery. Basically, the religion of Abraham had many times to show us how far in advance it was of other religions, but no one ever really spoke out against slavery or other abuses of the time. No scientific or any other type of knowledge is displayed far in advance of human civilization. Such a display could provide reason for faith, yet not be complete proof, so "faith" would still matter. But I come to this, why is it important for an all-powerful, immortal and timeless being to be worshipped by such ephemerals as us? Seriously, evne if you "believed" in Him, does it matter how much you love Him or make obeisance to him? And if he's so concerned with having us believe, again, it would make sense to make your presence truly known, rather than for us to pretend you performed miracles of epic proportions back when mankind believed that bunk but don't do it NOW because we need to have "faith." Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu Aborted by God. That was a test of Abraham's faith. But don't you see the foreshadowing there? God the Father was then willing to sacrifice His own Son. With that and Lot's "bargaining", I don't really see the conflict here. It makes no difference whether the attempt was aborted or not, it's the thought that counts you know. Let us not forget that The first born sons were murdered in Egypt. Perhaps this is a case of might makes right? God bullying people to do what he says while not abiding by his own moral codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu Or that Satan is behind their "power". Just an alternative view. An alternative one, but not one provided by the text. The Old and New Testament are quite clear when they speak of Satan's influence and doings. That brings up Job. All these terrible things happen to a good man(and innocent lives are lost) due to a cosmic BET between Satan and God. And it's clear in the text that Satan gets PERMISSION from God to do these terrible things. All for Satan to find out what he must have known anyway, right? That God doesn't lie and thus God knew. The story makes no sense except from teh mindset of those who believed in and made up primitive mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty It makes no difference whether the attempt was aborted or not, it's the thought that counts you know. Understand. But put it into the context of He doesn't ask us to do anything He wouldn't do or did in fact (Not again the notion of taking the first born of the Egyptians). The act was for atonement of sins not a proposed murder in of itself. You don't have to agree, I'm just giving you the train of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I'm wondering, are we off the beaten track here? I mean, it's all fine to debate a particular conception of God, but I don't want Stu or anyone to feel like we're ganging up on their particular faith. We could easily make some of these same arguments about other religions, so we all know. And in many ways, I'd be just as comfortable debating the more general ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin I'm wondering, are we off the beaten track here? I mean, it's all fine to debate a particular conception of God, but I don't want Stu or anyone to feel like we're ganging up on their particular faith. We could easily make some of these same arguments about other religions, so we all know. And in many ways, I'd be just as comfortable debating the more general ideas. Well that would be too easy. You can find the disconnect of logic for any believer when they try to connect the existence of God/Creator to the existence of their own god. Of course there is also a disconect of logic to get to the point that God exists in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Well that would be too easy. You can find the disconnect of logic for any believer when they try to connect the existence of God/Creator to the existence of their own god. Of course there is also a disconect of logic to get to the point that God exists in the first place. Yeah, but when someone relies on belief and tortured logic in defending an ancient book and the numerous rationalizations that spring therefrom, I don't know if it does any good to bring up specific events or passages from the Bible. Hey, it worked for me when I read Bertrand Russell's Why I am not a Christian, but there needs to be the next step of making someone think about this in a more general way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin An alternative one, but not one provided by the text. The Old and New Testament are quite clear when they speak of Satan's influence and doings. Doesn't mean that always has to be the case. Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin That brings up Job. All these terrible things happen to a good man(and innocent lives are lost) due to a cosmic BET between Satan and God. And it's clear in the text that Satan gets PERMISSION from God to do these terrible things. All for Satan to find out what he must have known anyway, right? That God doesn't lie and thus God knew. The story makes no sense except from teh mindset of those who believed in and made up primitive mythology. I am open to the notion that the Book of Job is meant as an Old Testament parable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Well that would be too easy. You can find the disconnect of logic for any believer when they try to connect the existence of God/Creator to the existence of their own god. Of course there is also a disconect of logic to get to the point that God exists in the first place. While my faith does follow a path of logic, I freely admit that there is a point of departure where faith is involved. I would submit that some of your beliefs have an element of "faith" as well. And while there may be times when all Christians can't tie together the answers to your questions in a logical manner that meets your approval, that doesn't mean such explanations don't exist. I suggest the writing of C.S. Lewis or G.K. Chesterton or of course Saint Thomas Aquinas. Ghost, I don't feel like you are in any way ganging up on Christianity. We are just discussing a topic that has been discussed since the beginning of time I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu While my faith does follow a path of logic, I freely admit that there is a point of departure where faith is involved. I would submit that some of your beliefs have an element of "faith" as well. Ghost, I don't feel like you are in any way ganging up on Christianity. We are just discussing a topic that has been discussed since the beginning of time I suppose. Well why do you pick to have faith in one god, but not the next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Well why do you pick to have faith in one god, but not the next? Fair question with a long explanation but in a nutshell here is my "quick and dirty" train of thought. 1. I believe in a Creator because of creation itself. It's just too complex not to have someone behind it. 2. I believe in Christ as the Son of God because He was either Who He said He was or a complete lunatic. Given the nature and truth of His teachings, the fact his followers chose death rather than forsake Him, His historical existence, fulfillment of prophecies and the existence of His Church to this day I accept the former. 3. Therefore, I then believe in the God of Abraham as being the One True God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stu Fair question with a long explanation but in a nutshell here is my "quick and dirty" train of thought. 1. I believe in a Creator because of creation itself. It's just too complex not to have someone behind it. 2. I believe in Christ as the Son of God because He was either Who He said He was or a complete lunatic. Given the nature and truth of His teachings, the fact his followers chose death rather than forsake Him, His historical existence, fulfillment of prophecies and the existence of His Church to this day I accept the former. 3. Therefore, I then believe in the God of Abraham as being the One True God. 1. Faulty assumption, but hard to argue one way or the other. 2. Well Muslims kill themselves for Islam to this day. And Islam is growing at a faster pace than Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty upon my standard of what makes me feel good I guess. So the morals of a nation begin and end with each person? Do you really believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan51 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty To the Theists who receive morality from God: Is God, bound by absolute morals also? He would have to be wouldn't he, if morality is truly absolute it would be absolute with or without God. It seems to me that the religious believe that God dictates morality arbitrarily. if God told you it would be moral to rape and immoral to help others would you believe it? God is bound only by His word, for He cannot lie. He is not bound by space and time like we are. He created it, so obviously He must be outside of it. God will always be as moral as His word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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