Jesus vs. Paul

[codeorama]

We've had a lot of bible/christian/evolution/creation/whatever debate going on lately and I wanted to throw this out there for some of our intelligent openminded posters out there.

I don't want this to become a shouting match, I'm not trying to start anything uncivil, but I want to spark a serious converstation regarding a bible controversy that many Christians themselves find to be a problem.

Much of the New Testament is based on the writings of Paul, who only knew Jesus from a vision. Yet, many, if not most of what Paul says in the bible contradicts what Jesus himself says.

First, I'm going to summarize some general observations regarding the contradictions.

Paul says that in order to get into heaven, you ONLY have to accept Christ as your savior.

Jesus and James (Jesus' brother) both say that through your deeds, you will reach heaven.

(Paul constantly teaches of gaining this free gift from God, while over and over, Jesus teaches that Behavior, your works and you deeds are integeral into your salvation.

Here is several versions of one of Paul's commentaries and James's direct rebuttal.

Romans 3:28 (Paul)

KJV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from WORKS of the law.

RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the DEEDS of the law.

Today's English Version: a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD only through FAITH, and not by DOING what the Law commands.

NIV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from OBSERVING THE LAW.

James 2:24 (James' rebuttal)

KJV: by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by FAITH only.

RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by FAITH alone.

Today's English Version: it is by his ACTIONS that a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD, and not by his FAITH alone.

NIV: a person is JUSTIFIED by what he DOES and not by FAITH alone.

In stark contrast to Paul's teaching of salvation by faith APART FROM behavioral manifestations, Jesus (in Matt. 7:21-27), state unequivocally that the mere profession of accepting him is not enough, but that such a profession MUST BE backed up by deeds. Jesus teaches a salvation of universal compassionate love expressed in ACTION. It is the centerpiece of everything he taught. And Jesus himself consistently expressed love and closeness to sinners, lepers, tax collectors and other outcasts, while saving his rare words of harshness and anger for the Pharisees and Saducees -- the pompous, self-righteous administrators of the established religious orthodoxy.

This is just a start, I have many many many more examples, but I don't want to throw too much out there yet.

A good test is to read the words of Jesus in a red letter bible, and then read the words of Paul.

You will find an amazing contradiction.

Again, please keep it civil, this is not meant to be anti christian in any way. Like I said, there are MANY christian websites out there that are anti Paul, feeling that he has corrupted Jesus' teachings, so again, this is not anti christian.

[SkinsNut73]

Ugh...Code...I promised myself (when I found these boards) I would refrain from posting in topics regarding religion and politics. They generally end up becoming pissing contests and I come here to talk about football and the Redskins...but, I'll give this one a shot.

I don't necessarily take James' "rebuttal" as a contradiction. I think what happens is ALL TOO OFTEN these verses get taken out of context. I'm not saying you are doing that specifically...just saying it is quite common. So I give you my civil opinion

If you read a few verses prior to James 2:24 you get a clearer picture of exactly what he is addressing (or at least my feeble mind does).

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So I don't think James is saying you need faith and works FOR SALVATION. I think he is saying the EVIDENCE OF YOUR SALVATION will be seen in your works. It kind of reminds me of the "jailhouse confession". You toss the name of Jesus around, but did He really impact your life? Are you truly converted? The evidence of your conversion will be seen in the good works you do, but the good works you do will not earn your salvation.

This would be the same message that Paul preaches then...

...but this is just my humble opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't insult me or I may cry

[SkinsNut73]

Oh, forgot to address Jesus' quote that you referenced in Matt 7. Again, when I read it in context I do not see a contradiction. Jesus is addressing the topic of FALSE PROPHETS, not Christians. He's saying that in the end they will be the ones claiming to have done many wonderful works for the Lord, but Jesus will say to them I never knew you.

I equate these with the scumbag televangelists who say "Send me that check for $1,000 and I will pray for you to be healed blah, blah,blah".

In other words, you'll know the "true" Christians by the fruit they bear. Not necessarily addressing Christians and works...rather false teachers and how to tell them apart.

15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

[codeorama]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ok, I see what you are saying, but I disagree. IMO, James is saying literally, I will show you my faith in God by my actions, not by my words.

This is not the only example of the contradictions, there are more that are more obvious, but I don't want to post them yet, this will get too far off track.

BTW, I'm not trying to say, I'm right and you are wrong, You provided why you believe this particular section is not a problem for you and I respect that.

[Skins24]

Plus I'm pretty sure Paul was talking about the law, when he says "the works of the law", and the law was supposed to be done away with....since Jesus came. James mentions nothing of the law.

This is just a start, I have many many many more examples, but I don't want to throw too much out there yet.

Oh come on, throw them out there!

I'm curious to hear what these numerous contridictions are

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by codeorama

BTW, I'm not trying to say, I'm right and you are wrong, You provided why you believe this particular section is not a problem for you and I respect that.

A nice, civil response...thank you

:cool:

[panel]

It is all interperitation, what is it meant "only through jesus"? Just about all major religions have strong ties to eachother and can be interperated almaost exactly the same ways. But where most use their religion as good, some use it to justifiy their bad, and deep down, they know that they aredoing wrong, but still use religion as justification.

[mardi gras skin]

Code, I think Paul's getting a pretty raw deal here on a couple of points. First, all of Romans 6 addresses the fact that a changed lifestyle is significantly related to salvation. Second, Paul is specifically addressing "Law" in those passages you quote, not just any actions.

Obeying every jot and tittle of the Law had become synonymous with Holy living. Jesus spoke out against the hypocracy of obeying the letter of the law while allowing people (your neighbor) to suffer. In Romans, Paul reinforces Jesus' message that faith in God leads to a heart that resonates with the Law. Romans is a well constructed case built to view the Law in its proper relationship to Faith.

James is addressing good old fashoined sin. He's not talking about following the Law, he's talking about a changed life. Its like the flip side of the coin: Faith in God leads to a heart that resonates with the Law.

[redman]

I have nothing to add to what others have said in response, other to reinforce the idea that context counts, and merely focusing upon one phrase or idea out of that context can be deceiving, or place false weight upon that idea that did not in fact exist.

[redman]

Originally posted by codeorama

Ok, I see what you are saying, but I disagree. IMO, James is saying literally, I will show you my faith in God by my actions, not by my words.

Code, why do you believe that? You didn't explain why despite getting an excellent explanation in response to your initial post.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by redman

Code, why do you believe that? You didn't explain why despite getting an excellent explanation in response to your initial post.

He provided this as his example:

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I say, read it...

Show me thy faith without thy works and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS.

AND

But wilt thou know, .... faith without works is dead?

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir with many people here on Extremeskins, but in my day to day experiences and past church experiences (which were extensive), I find that many people use the "faith is the only thing necessary" to find salvation line and I read Jesus's words and he says that that is not the only thing.

Also, as another post indicated, Paul says in short that the law (as per the old testament) doesn't apply any longer (for example, the verses that say you can't eat shell fish etc..) but he says that homosexuality is wrong and that men of god shouldn't associate them selves with these sinners (my words to paraphrase). Why can Paul disregard everthing, except one thing? That doen't make sense.

Jesus shows time and time again that he associates with shadier folks and shows them how to live by his actions. He doesn't avoid these people, he saves them.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

A nice, civil response...thank you

:cool:

No problem, like I said, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, I'm trying to understand the opposite opinion. To me, some of this seems blatantly contradictory, so I want to see why some agree with me and some disagree with me.

[jbooma]

You mean Saul

[codeorama]

Originally posted by jbooma

You mean Saul

Saul the jew killer??:laugh:

[jbooma]

Originally posted by codeorama

Saul the jew killer??:laugh:

No Saul was Paul before he become Paul

(say that 5 times fast)

[codeorama]

Originally posted by jbooma

No Saul was Paul before he become Paul

(say that 5 times fast)

I know, and he killed jews...

[twa]

It all comes back to the context,the meaning is apparent[at least to me]when you use the rest of the passage.The Mosaic law was given as a guide to live ,and also to show man could not live a pefect life .just as the sacrifices showed the need of innocent blood to be shed pointing to Jesus being the sacrifice for sin.While Jesus fulfilled the law[a perfect life]he in no way changed the moral code shown in it.The new testament is to a large degree is old testament scripture repeated.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by codeorama

I know, and he killed jews...

i thought he was a jew, and that isn't nice to say fast 5 times

[jbooma]

Originally posted by twa

The new testament is to a large degree is old testament scripture repeated.

no it isn't, they cover completely different eras

[codeorama]

Ok,

Here's another example:

Paul says:

Rom.13

[9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus says:

Matt.22

[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

[38] This is the great and first commandment.

[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.

[codeorama]

And another:

Paul says:

Rom.9

[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:

Matt.5

[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

I take this as Paul saying that only God's mercy matters, where as Jesus says that if YOU are merciful, you will receive mercy.

[SkinsNut73]

I say, read it...Show me thy faith without thy works and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS.

AND

But wilt thou know, .... faith without works is dead?

FAITH BY MY WORKS...

Your faith should manifest itself in good works. Again, not that it is the means of salvation, but the evidence of it. When you are a believer you should be expressing that in good works...or as you pointed out Jesus' actions:

And Jesus himself consistently expressed love and closeness to sinners, lepers, tax collectors and other outcasts, while saving his rare words of harshness and anger for the Pharisees and Saducees -- the pompous, self-righteous administrators of the established religious orthodoxy.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

If you run around calling yourself a Christian, but lack the love for sinners/care for your nieghbor/etc, then it's all meaningless...your faith is dead. Or, you are nothing more than a Pharisee or a Sadducee..."religious" but not righteous.

Perhaps another example of a contradiction would be better? This one seems pretty simple to me...but I'm by no means a Bible scholar. There are others on this board with much more knowledge/practice when it comes to the Bible.

Still feel free to disagree of course...but someday when we get to heaven God will set the record straight and tell you that I was right....

:jk:

*SkinsNut runs for cover expecting a lightning bolt to strike from heaven at any moment*

[codeorama]

And another:

Paul says:

Eph.1

[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Rom.4

[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Jesus says:

Matt.6

[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;

[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I take this as Paul saying that our sins are already forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice whereas Jesus says if YOU don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

FAITH BY MY WORKS...

Your faith should manifest itself in good works. Again, not that it is the means of salvation, but the evidence of it. When you are a believer you should be expressing that in good works...or as you pointed out Jesus' actions:

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

If you run around calling yourself a Christian, but lack the love for sinners/care for your nieghbor/etc, then it's all meaningless...your faith is dead. Or, you are nothing more than a Pharisee or a Sadducee..."religious" but not righteous.

Perhaps another example of a contradiction would be better? This one seems pretty simple to me...but I'm by no means a Bible scholar. There are others on this board with much more knowledge/practice when it comes to the Bible.

Still feel free to disagree of course...but someday when we get to heaven God will set the record straight and tell you that I was right....

:jk:

*SkinsNut runs for cover expecting a lightning bolt to strike from heaven at any moment*

LOL.. I agree with your reasoning, If you live the correct life you "works" will show, but I think where I'm not understanding is that Paul always says that you need only have faith that Jesus is the Savior, thus salvation devoid of any works.

Lightning may get me too...

[SkinsNut73]

Okay Code...you are on a roll now adding a couple more in there. I'll take a look at them when I have a moment...have this little thing called my job which is getting in the way of having fun on this message board

But this is a good, thought-provoking thread...and pretty civil to this point.