Sarge Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 We haven't had a good debatable issue in awhile; Fox seeks to open U.S. borders By Audrey Hudson and James G. Lakely THE WASHINGTON TIMES Mexican President Vicente Fox yesterday said he favors open borders across North America, not amnesty for his countrymen illegally residing in the United States. The alien work program announced last week by President Bush would not encourage aliens to remain in the United States, because they love their home country, the Mexican president told the "Fox News Sunday" program. "We are not looking for an amnesty [for] Mexico. It's not that we're looking for these Mexicans working productively in the United States to become U.S. citizens. They like tacos, they like their families, they like their community, they like Mexico. Unfortunately, they don't have the opportunities that they would like to have as persons, so that's why they move," Mr. Fox said. Mr. Fox said all immigration barriers should be removed to allow people to live and work in the country of their choosing, whether it be Mexico, the United States or Canada. "On the long term, this North American bloc can be the leading bloc on the world and be the most competitive bloc on the world by working together and, through that, be able to keep increasing the quality and the level of life of our citizens," Mr. Fox said. Mr. Bush heads to northern Mexico today to participate in the Summit of the Americas talks in Monterrey. A key subject will be his proposal allowing millions of Mexicans in this country illegally to remain for three years if they have jobs that citizens don't want. Mr. Bush began lobbying Congress to pass a new alien work program in 2001, but the issue was sidelined after the September 11 terrorist attacks and renewed concerns over border security. Critics say the program amounts to amnesty for illegal aliens because they can reapply for a second permit and stay in the United States an additional three years. Commerce Secretary Donald L. Evans said there will be no guarantees for alien workers in this program. "No guarantee they'll be able to stay permanently, and no guarantee they won't be able to stay permanently," Mr. Evans told CNN's "Late Edition." "And what the president has said is that we've got to get a system in place that only allows legal immigrants to take jobs that may otherwise go to an American. It also will make our borders a lot safer." Critics say the timing is suspect and that the proposal is an election-year ploy to garner Hispanic votes. Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut called it "an election-year conversion by George Bush." The proposal is "a little step forward, but not enough," Mr. Lieberman told CNN. "We've got to find a way to make them legal, have them contribute to the system, become part of the American family, and then start again at trying to make the flow of immigration in here legal and not illegal." National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said the program will give Mexican workers "dignity." "I can't think of anything better for a worker who has worked under these circumstances, kind of in the shadows in the United States, to finally have a way to come out of the shadows, to have certain protections that are not there now because they're having to live in the shadows, to have recognized that they are an important part of a strong American economy, and to get that kind of status," she said in a press briefing on Friday. The Mexican government also will be expected to do a better job policing its border to protect its citizens, she said. "The Mexican government doesn't like to see people trying to cross the border illegally, particularly because, just in even humanitarian terms, the harshness of what faces these people when they try to walk across the Rio Grande is really, really awful," Miss Rice said. In addition to migration, world leaders at the summit will discuss the implications of international terrorism and poverty. Mr. Bush meets today with Mr. Fox, Chilean President Ricardo Lagos and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Tomorrow, Mr. Bush will have his first private meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin, and later meet with President Nestor Kirchner of Argentina and Bolivian President Carlos Mesa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Tricky situtation. It seems that there is almost no way around this issue. If millions of illegals are granted citizenship, we are looking at a groundbreaking change in immigration laws. Wow how that would infuriate many. I don't think that will come to pass, but on the other hand, with so many here illegally that are either arrested or deported if they aren't caught, we are still spending obscene amounts of money trying to stop this. If more federal funds were given to states in the border regions, we definitely wouldn't have the influx of illegals that we are seeing now. Therefore, less money spent on keeping illegals in jail until they are deported. Also, We have no idea of the amount of illegals working in this country. I would also assume that pobably 40-50% of those jobs wouldn't be desired by American citizens. The ignored fact that illegals aren't paid virtually any $ at all for some of these jobs assumes that many of the organizations emplying illegals wouldn't survive without them. I say give more funding to states to tighten up the borders and police the workforces. In the long run, I think it would help us save the rediculous amounts of money we spend for the dept. of immigration. At a later date, it may be possible to create a system where Mexican's can work legally in the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 They like tacos... I think this is a stereotyping, racist comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I've been wondering how long it would take this thread to come up. I was very proud of President Bush when he gave his speech outlining his proposal. If passed, this will have a dramatically positive effect on the US's economy. It will also essentially liberate millions of good people. The thing that most impressed me about Bush is that I think he knows his views on immigration could hurt him politically, but he's making a stand for what he believes is right. I'd be curious to read your take Sarge, b/c I know you've been a Bush supporter, but I have a feeling you might not be in favor of this proposal. IAMBG, Bush is not proposing giving millions of illegal immigrants citizenship. He wants to issue them 3 year work visas that would be renewable once. He did propose however increasing the number immigrants granted citizenship, and allowing immigrants here on work visas to apply. There are many that agree with you about strengthening our borders, but most do not understand how monumentally difficult and expensive it would be to try to prevent all immigrants from crossing the Mexican border. If working immigrants are allowed to cross legally however, it will be considerably easier to stop criminals or terrorists from crossing the border because there will be a dramatic decrease in illegal border crossing traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I just wonder what implications this move would have on the US economy? Would money be taken out of the US economy and sent to Mexico & South America by these workers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Master Jay Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Not a good ideal because they will come over here and work for lower wages. They already are doing that in California and it will only get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabblerouser Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I'm anti-illegal immigration, not anti-immigration. But to even attempt to solve the problem you have to control the border otherwise all else is mute. It may be too late and expensive to attempt to round up all the illegals and deport them but we should at least attempt to stem the tide. Now what to do with those that are here illegally is another matter. I don't buy the arguement that removing them would ruin the economy, it's not like you'd be removing them all at once anyway. The workforce is affected by supply and demand, like everything else additional labor costs would simply be passed on to the consumer. Seems to me you'd have to do something about those who hire illegals first. Probably have to be something drastic like huge escalating fines for businesses caught with illegals repeatedly in their employment. But again it may very well be too late to do much about those already in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by GSF IAMBG, Bush is not proposing giving millions of illegal immigrants citizenship. He wants to issue them 3 year work visas that would be renewable once. He did propose however increasing the number immigrants granted citizenship, and allowing immigrants here on work visas to apply. There are many that agree with you about strengthening our borders, but most do not understand how monumentally difficult and expensive it would be to try to prevent all immigrants from crossing the Mexican border. If working immigrants are allowed to cross legally however, it will be considerably easier to stop criminals or terrorists from crossing the border because there will be a dramatic decrease in illegal border crossing traffic. Oops on the citizenship. I jumped too soon and misread, but still not far off base though. A 3 year visa being rewarded for entering the country illegally and obtaining a job that pays so little no American wants it is pretty crazy IMHO. I wouldn't say I'm happy about the proposal and don't see at all how that protects us from criminals or terrorists. However, if this can prove to slow the flow of illegal immigrants then it could be a great step. With regards to spending and illegals, we are spending more now with the status quo because so many migrate northwards over time, settling into remote areas causing states like South Carolina and even, say, Illinois to spend their taxpayers money while the illegals are locked away in their system , then the feds money as they are deported. It makes a whole lot more sense to me to aid the bordering states where the crossover occurs and stop the flow of traffic there. I would also think if there were a way for terrorists to enter the country right now, it would be through Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Okay, maybe it's just me, but I think long term we need these workers. What's more we need them paying taxes! That only happens if they are legal. Now it is easier in many cases to pay them under the table rather than have them try to become legal. We need to make it easier for them to be legal so we collect more taxes. A few facts from the Census Bureau: http://www.census.gov/population/www/projections/ppl47.html "As the Baby Boom generation (those born between 1946 and 1964) reaches retirement age after 2010, the percentage of the population that is elderly will increase rapidly in the South and Midwest. In 1995, Florida had the largest proportion of elderly (19 percent) of any State, and Alaska had the smallest at 5 percent. By 2025, Florida (with 26 percent) would remain the leading State with more than a quarter of its population classified as elderly. Alaska would still rank as the youngest with 10 percent. Between 1995 and 2025 the number of elderly are projected to double in 21 States. " Now ask yourself which states get the most workers from Mexico? Luckily for us...it's the same states that will be losing workers to retirement. Is it a painless solution? No absolutely not. The new workers coming from Mexico tend not to be a workforce as well educated. However, they can certainly do many of the jobs that will be incresingly unfilled. Better paying, more demanding (from an educational requirements perspective) will probably still not go in groves to the imigrant population (atleast at first). As a side note, it does kind of speak to the need of maintaining an adequate educational system for as many as possible. Now if the immigrants are or become educated and unreplacable parts of our economy...so much the better. They are then doing everything we ask of our citizens, so why not make them citizens? All of this also ignore how crucial immigrant workers are to our farming industry. Finally, how is imigration of workers any different from any other free trade question? Aren't workers efforts a product to be sold like anything else? Why do we have protectionist policies? This is actually one part where I approve of what Bush is proposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I would tell Mexico to open their southern border for a few years and show us how this can work for the best. After they prove it we could talk about it. For the record I don't want those sneaky Canadians coming here either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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