SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by dallasfan What he's trying to get you to realize is compare the final 3 years of Lavar's contract, he's got about 26 million coming to him, and really unless he has a career ending injury, snyder won't cut him. If he signs a contract extension he probably won't see 26 million in the first three years, and when he's set to recieve his big payday, snyder will just want to re-negotiate. What you need to realize is that those figures for the final 3 years are meaningless. It was never intended for him to actually play out the contract as it is currently written. He knows that. This is not about what he would be earning on his current contract. I would guess that the negotiating points are the size of the signing bonus and the effective life of the contract - the point at which the structure of the contract forces the two sides to re-negotiate or sever ties, regardless of the official length of the contract. The Redskins probably want to make it effectively a 5 year deal. Lavar and his people probably want it to be more like 3. Probably some other technical and structural details that are relatively minor. BTW, comparing Holt and Coles is not terribly fair. Holt is in his fifth year, all playing in the same offense, with a more experienced QB and a stable and established group of personnel around him. Coles is in his fourth season, his first in an offense substantially different than the one he cut his teeth on, with an inexperienced QB and many other new players on offense. I think Coles is the team MVP. A great example for the rest of the team and a true professional. Are there better WRs? Sure, but none that I would pine for to replace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 What you need to realize is that those figures for the final 3 years are meaningless. It was never intended for him to actually play out the contract as it is currently written. This wasn't even how the contract was origonally written- didn't he just restructure in the last off season to make room for some new guys? with a more experienced QB and a stable and established group of personnel around him. The "playing in a new offense" point is very valid, but Bulger is no more experienced than Ramsey (even though Coles has had to play 2 games with Hasselbeck). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Well, Bulger has been in the league 4 years, and it's his third with the Rams. Regardless of actual playing time, I consider that to be more experienced than a second year guy. He got exposure to the pro game for two whole years prior to Ramsey even entering the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I hope these players take note. We can win without you. the patriots can do, so can the other teams in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I hope these players take note. We can win without you. :rotflmao: They should try winning with them first if they want any leverage on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Well, Bulger has been in the league 4 years, and it's his third with the Rams. He spent a grand total of 3 weeks on the practice squads of the Falcons and Rams in 2000. He was inactive for the entire 2001 season (never dressed once). That is the total of his experience over Ramsey....Wouldn't exactly call it a leg up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 fd, Lavar got pretty much the type of contract that the second pick in the draft receives. There was nothing in it that was atypical - at least, that is my understanding. I'm not sure how substantially Lavar re-worked his contract prior to this season. I got the impression that it was just one of those "let's turn this year's salary into bonus $, thereby freeing up cap space" sort of deals. I don't think they altered the subsequent years too much. I believe their intention was to do a completely new deal for Lavar prior to next season. For players slated to get large $$ in salary, it's pretty typical to work it this way. Ray Lewis will re-negotiate before his current contract expires. McNabb probably will, too. It's just the way it works. Rarely will you see a team let a guy carry a huge cap charge in any given season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 There is a lot re-negotiation at the end of contracts when they are structured improperly. Problem is, if this was an automatic "no problem", there would be no such thing as a "salary cap casualty". The Skins have no leverage in this negotiation because Lavar is making good money and could get the same money from a lot lot of other teams in the league that haven't tied up so much much money in their other players. You can't pay top dollar for free agents at every position and never pay the piper....The Skins will have to choose between Champ and Lavar because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by f_dallas He spent a grand total of 3 weeks on the practice squads of the Falcons and Rams in 2000. He was inactive for the entire 2001 season (never dressed once). That is the total of his experience over Ramsey....Wouldn't exactly call it a leg up. During that time frame, he went through training camps, sat in film sessions, went through game plans, practiced, got instruction from coaches, ran scout teams, etc. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer QBs to be brought along like this, rather than thrown into the fire. There's a lot less pressure and lets them get a good feel for the game. Sorry, I consider that to be valuable learning time and experience. If you consider playing time to being the only guage of experience, then I'm not sure what the value of all the preparation is that goes into playing QB in the NFL. You think Kurt Warner just instantly became a top-notch NFL QB? He had hardly played, if at all, in the NFL before he got called on. I don't think playing Arena Ball and NFLE is the sole explanation for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Please explain how Lavar's contract was structured improperly. He got what the second pick in the draft gets. The team put clauses in that rewarded him for good performance, which protects them in case he had turned out to be a bust. How else should it have been structured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 When they signed Lavar, they had also just signed Deoin, Jeff George, Bruce Smith, etc. and structured Lavar's contract so it was completely backloaded. He is scheduled to earn about $28 million in the last three years of his deal (including this season) on a contract that totalled about $44 million. That means that he made about $4 million per year for the first 4 season of the deal and about $8- $9 million per year over the last 3 years of the deal. How is that a well structured contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I'm pretty sure that that is the standard contract for a high pick. In fact, it's not uncommon with any player that receives a large signing bonus and a high total $ amount on the contract. It wouldn't be affordable otherwise. It's why the Patriots cut Milloy at the beginning of the season. Do all the other teams do it differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I'm pretty sure that that is the standard contract for a high pick. In fact, it's not uncommon with any player that receives a large signing bonus and a high total $ amount on the contract. It wouldn't be affordable otherwise. It's why the Patriots cut Milloy at the beginning of the season. Milloy wasn't a cap cut, per say. By definition, they had to be ender the cap before then (and they were). Contracts always have more money at the end than at the beginning because each year the salary cap goes up (for instance, next year the cap goes up 5%). Lavar's contract was origonally slated to earn him about $5.5 million per year, plus pro-rated bonus money. Because of their cap situation at the time, and their cap problem again, they had to keep on deferring money to future years to buy them time (his contract wasn't origonally structured to double in annual value after 4 years, if that is what you are thinking). Now, it's going to bite them in the ass because Lavar, Champ, or both will be gone very soon. In addition, If they manage to buy just enough space to keep them together for one more season and Ramsey happens to play well, he will be lobbying for a real starters contract and they have another situation on their hands. Enjoy the mess Danny has put on the skins. If they get real competitive and even go to the playoffs in the next 5 seasons, I would be very, very suprised. There is a reason no other team in the league spends as much as the Skins in FA every year- and it isn't because Danny is smarter than everyone else...the results prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Do all the other teams do it differently? Interesting that you mentiuon that. I, as most here know, am an Eagles fan. They have never made a salary cap cut. They have let FAs walk that were a little over the hill (Hugh), a little more than they like to pay for a position (Barber), and just overrated MLBs who are dumb as bricks and other peoples problems now (Trotter), but never a salalry cap cut. By keeping the core of the team together and building through the draft, they have been consistant winners for a few years now. I want them to go after a big name guy every year, as a fan, because it's exciting.....but you can't really argue with the results so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 The Redskins were active in FA for two seasons - 2000 and this past offseason. Hardly the biggest spenders every year. Plenty of other teams are in worse cap shape. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about Lavar. I don't think his original contract has been altered drastically, just restructured. He has hit escalators that have caused his salary to rise. Again, I don't see where there is out of the norm for a high pick's contract. You have yet to show me that it is. And Milloy was cut because he was slated to make more than the Patriots wanted to pay - they were up against the cap and needed some room for typical in-season stuff. He wouldn't renegotiate, so they cut him. Kind of like the Redskins did with Wilkinson. I think you worry too much about the cap. Cap hell is overrated. The Raiders were like $50M over and got under with a few swipes of the pen, w/o losing any key players. The Redskins won't lose Champ because of the cap, it'll happen because they don't believe he is worth the money he is demanding. And, he isn't. It's my understanding that the Redskins are in good shape cap-wise for the next couple of years. Will they have to make some decisions? Absolutely - every team does. The Eagles do it all the time. They've lost Trotter and Douglas. They're probably going to lose Vincent and Taylor. Runyan may move on. Staley is probably gone after the season. Of course, the Eagles win (or, are contenders for) the Cap Bowl each season. They wouldn't think of splurging on some playmakers on offense that may actually help them win it all (I'll be very surprised if they do it this year). I know, spare me the "Eagles are in it every year, and the Redskins suck" crap. If I were a fan of the team, it would kill me to know how close the team is, yet how reluctant they are to take that extra step. I've been very impressed with how they got it back together this season, but, until they do something about the dearth of playmakers on offense, they're consigned to be an also-ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 just overrated MLBs who are dumb as bricks and other peoples problems now (Trotter) I see. The Eagles let a young, Pro Bowl player go, it's because he's overrated and they didn't really want him anyway. The Redskins might do this with Bailey. But, if they do, it's because they're stupid with the cap. And, if they do give Bailey what he wants, it'll be said that they're stupid with the cap, too. I guess the Eagles have the market cornered on making sound value judgments on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Originally posted by SonnyJ I see. The Eagles let a young, Pro Bowl player go, it's because he's overrated and they didn't really want him anyway. The Redskins might do this with Bailey. But, if they do, it's because they're stupid with the cap. And, if they do give Bailey what he wants, it'll be said that they're stupid with the cap, too. I guess the Eagles have the market cornered on making sound value judgments on players. Sonny, Please be nice to the Iggles fans. They can't help it if they have run out of excuses why they can't ever make it to the SB. Let them be content winning the Salary Cap Bowl and with their back to back losses in the NFC Championship game. Cause you know...its really more important to pick #28 in Round 1 and not #32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_dallas Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I see. The Eagles let a young, Pro Bowl player go, it's because he's overrated and they didn't really want him anyway. How's he working out for you? Only time I get to see him is when Jaws does his vieo breakdown and shows Trotter overpursuing or losing gap control. They had him on the roster, had the franchise tag on him (with plenty of cap room to spare) and decided to cut him loose anyway. Since he left, how many pro bowls has he been to? How great of an every down player and run stopper has he been? The one thing you are right about is if the Eagles don't win a Super Bowl through all this, then it doesn't really mean anything. I still would at least root for a winning team than one who excitement only exists in the off season. What the Skins (and apparently some of their fans) don't undertand in continuity is key. I've said it before- I would love to have a huge off season with big names and contracts flying around, but it doesn't win football games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Trotter was let go because of his conflict with Andy Reid. With the Skins, he hasnt been worth his salary. Thats why it will not suprise me to see the Skins let him go at the end of next year (when it becomes cheaper to take the dead money hit vs. having him on the roster and paying the prorated sb+salary). But going after young stars who are coming off of multiple pro-bowls, is something I think a lot of the NFL would do over and over. If the Iggles never make it to the big game, and consistently win the salary cap bowl - there will be a lot of disgruntled fans, I think, who will march to the new dump and light the FO on fire. They should, if you don't want to spend all the $'s you are allowed to, then dont own a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 How Trotter is playing for the Redskins is not germane to this discussion. The point is that they let an elite young player walk, though they had room to sign him. Why? Because, disputes with Reid aside, they didn't think he was worth what he was asking for. It's the same scenario with the Redskins and Bailey. If he leaves, it won't be because they have blown the cap. It's because they don't feel he's worth his asking price. You felt Trotter was overrated. Many here feel Bailey is overrated. Doesn't mean that either isn't a good player. It's strictly a value judgment. BTW, the Eagles aren't successful because they've shrewdly managed the cap. As you said, it's continuity and coaching. I happen to think they would be much more successful if they were more aggressive with the cap. I think their cap management is holding the franchise back. It is possible to be aggressive cap-wise, yet still be fiscally sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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