Deacon Jones

[DeathByLinebacker]

In his Post article, Wilbon perpetuates the myth that Deacon Jones had over 200 sacks and should hold the sack record. Here's the truth:

Hall of Fame DE Deacon Jones proclaimed that it was he, not White, who was the NFL’s all-time sack king. Jones said to anyone who would listen, "Since when does ‘all-time’ begin in 1982?"

Attempting to prove Jones’ claims was a tedious task, especially since only a few teams had published team sack records in their media guides. So, with the help of a partner, Nick Webster, we traveled to every NFL city and read every available "play-by-play." A play-by-play is a game summary that is used by Elias to compile all NFL statistics. Additionally, I was able to research old game films in Mt. Laurel, N.J., the home of NFL Films, to fill in where a play-by-play may have lacked.

Ultimately, this research showed that Jones was indeed the leading sacker of all time, as he had claimed — until 1997, that is. That season, White surpassed Jones’ regular-season total of 173½ sacks.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/features_1999/turney_062600.asp

[inmate running the asylum]

Interesting. Ive been trying to research something off and on when I have the time, regarding the SINGLE SEASON sack record.

I know Michael Strahan holds the current record, but years ago I recall reading in the L.A. Times about a Philadelphia Eagle DE who REALLY would have the record, but they didn't keep official sack records then.

Unfortunately, I cant recall the Eagle players name, who must have played back in the 1950's or 1960's. :mad: Back in those days they only played a 12 game schedule, but everyone said no offensive lineman could block this guy and he averaged 3 sacks a game, which would have been over 30 in a season.

Maybe some Eagle fans on the board here can recall who I am trying to remember. Or maybe an ole timer like Bulldog might remember? :laugh:

Also, I recall reading years ago in Street & Smith magazine, that in 1978 when DE Coy Bacon signed with the Redskins, Coy Bacon had 29 sacks in one season for the Cincinnati Bengals in either 1976 or 1977 when he made the pro-bowls.

So the current sack records are really kind of bogus.

[gridironmike]

Interesting finds by both of you.

[NavyDave]

Thats impressive and its obvious the only reason he doesnt have more is because he played in an era that had 12- to 14 game seasons

[Montilar]

Inmate, Would the eagles player be Chuck Bednarik?

I can't think of any bigtime eagle oldster other than him and he was supposed to be a monster. I think he was an eagle

[RAC]

Originally posted by Montilar

Inmate, Would the eagles player be Chuck Bednarik?

I can't think of any bigtime eagle oldster other than him and he was supposed to be a monster. I think he was an eagle

That's the name that popped into my head as well.... gotta love the guy who crushed Frank Gifforrd, even if he was an Eagle.

[Symbol]

Originally posted by Montilar

Inmate, Would the eagles player be Chuck Bednarik?

I can't think of any bigtime eagle oldster other than him and he was supposed to be a monster. I think he was an eagle

I don't know about the single season sack record, but I could believe it. They had a piece once on NFL Films on the best sackers and he was on it. This was before Derrick Thomas died. As most of us know, Thomas holds the modern day record for sacks in a single game with 6.

Well, Mr. Bednarik's team mates and himself claim that he had 14 sacks in a game. Derrick Thomas's eyes went wide and he said exactly what I was thinking. If in this day and age and offensive line gave up 14 sacks to one guy, the OC would be fired, the lineman that let him through would be fired, and a really good chance of the HC to be fired immidiately after the game.

[Troy Fakeman]

great find

[Brewhoos]

Tremendous thread, very informative.

Listening to yesterdays game, Sonny mentioned that he too thought Deacon had more than Bruce. HE commented on how the record might not be accurate. He had tons of praise for Deacon.

Not to take anything away from B. Smith though- except that he went to Tech.

[Iggle in Exile]

That's the name that popped into my head as well.... gotta love the guy who crushed Frank Gifforrd, even if he was an Eagle.

If he had done that to Kathy Lee Gifford, I'd be even happier...

It might have been Bednarik, but I think he played linebacker. I also think the guy (Bednarik) is a little prone to exaggeration.

Bednarik is supposedly ticked off at the Eagles; he wrote an autobiography that sold about 30 copies, and a friend discovered that there were pallets of them at some warehouse. So he said to Jeff Lurie, the Eagles owner, "hey, tell you what - I'll give you a discount on them, and you buy them and give them to the players." (He's been on this crusade about today's players, and I guess he thought that if they read his book they'd stop wearing earrings, listening to rap music, and showing off when they scored touchdowns...) Lurie, for whatever reason, said that they couldn't do that, and since then Bednarik has ended all contact with the Eagles. Maybe Lurie should have gone a little further to placate a legend - however petulent - but Bednarik needs to lighten up a little.

[Iggle in Exile]

I know you guys like to trash Tuesday Morning Quarterback, but I’ll throw out something that he wrote last year:

White's swim and also his "rip" move had no peers. Owing to size and strength, he was the best of the big three against the run, and of course Reggie is No. 1 all time in sacks, his mark likely safe from the fading Smith. Reggie wears a ring; he had two Super Bowl chances and made both memorable. Even some of his goofy political views must be given a grain of notice. For example, Reggie got in trouble for saying that slavery was worse than the persecution of American Indians because the latter were defeated in war, whereas the former were enslaved, and society generally recognizes the results of wars (otherwise the United States couldn't own the United States), whereas slavery is now universally considered invalid. Reggie made this position sound anti-Indian, but there's a weird honesty to it.

White may well have been best ever. His downside: The majority of his sacks were piled up playing with fabulous teammates. The Eagles line of White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons and Mike Pitts might have surpassed the Fearsome Foursome as best ever. This meant Reggie had great support, and really wasn't double-teamed much till the late phase of his career. Of course, being great, he still brought it even when doubled.

It's the double-teaming factor that makes TMQ side with Bruce Smith as best-ever. He accomplished about the same as Reggie or Deacon, while playing with significantly less-potent linemates. TMQ would guess that Bruce has faced two blockers on at least half the downs of his career, whereas for Deacon and Reggie, it was perhaps a quarter of their downs. Fighting through more guys, with less help from linemates, makes Bruce best ever, and the Challenge goes to Vincent Girardi.

Here's the link: http://www.tienmao.com/archives/000530.html

Anyway, setting aside the 'weird honesty' comment, which would prove ironic for Gregg Easterbrook, it was an interesting perspective. I think the fact that Reggie White set his record in 44 fewer games than Bruce Smith trumps TMQ’s argument, but that’s just me. Any thoughts?

[Flowtrain]

Statisticians today pay close attention to who tackles the QB and where the QB is in relation to the LOS so that sacks can be properly recorded for Elias. Do we trust the dusty old "play-by-plays" from the 60s written without regard to how their description would later be used in analyzing a play that the author deemed insignificant? Reports that were admittedly so spotty that game tape was necessary to fill in the gaps?

I'm sure Bruce would, but Deacon & Co. would have some justified doubts.

[@DCGoldPants]

how many would Bruce have if he could head slap?

[Symbol]

Originally posted by BodyBagGame

Anyway, setting aside the 'weird honesty' comment, which would prove ironic for Gregg Easterbrook, it was an interesting perspective. I think the fact that Reggie White set his record in 44 fewer games than Bruce Smith trumps TMQ’s argument, but that’s just me. Any thoughts?

I agree, Reggie was the better player. Of course I've always concidered Deacon Jones as the best of all times and the guy that I wish I could have copied when I played, but alas the head slap had been outlawed by then.

However, you have to give it to Bruce, he's done a great job for a long time, and now he needs to say goodbye.

[Iggle in Exile]

However, you have to give it to Bruce, he's done a great job for a long time, and now he needs to say goodbye.

Symbol, could you even imagine the anguish he would cause if he said that he wanted to play one more year? Actually, there wouldn't be much because the Skins would say 'thanks but no thanks' and cut him.

[PCS]

Maybe it's the highlights they show along with some fading memories I have, but it does seems like Deacon was always in the offensive backfield. Along with the rest of the "Fearsome Foursome". That said, who knows about the sack record? Seems like those guys did a pretty good job with their research. Be nice if they turned it on some of the other pass rushing terrors from the NFL's past, ( keeping in mind that teams didn't throw a much back then). Speaking of which, here's another Eagle from the 50's besides Ironman Bedenarick who could be one to research and may be the one Inmate mentioned.

Wild Man Willey

[Montilar]

As someone said somewhere else, it was a different game. You are comparing apples to oranges in a way.

Deacon Jones was famous for the head slap. If Bruce or Reggie could of used the head slap legally, maybe thier numbers would be even greater.

Also, the DB's were allowed to get physical with the recievers, so maybe there was more time to rush the passer on occasion.

Comparing the old stats and the new is difficult to do. You have the different rules and things such as 14 game seasons, 12 game seasons, 16 game seasons, etc.

[inmate running the asylum]

Whoever this Eagle DE is that I'm trying to recall, I don't think it was Chuck Bednarik. Bednarik is a very famous old time player who I remember reading about and I believe only played linebacker.

I need an Eagles press guide I guess to go over the rosters. If I saw the name again, I think I would remember it.

Like I say I don't know if the information was true or not -- but the LA Times writer claimed it was, based on what contemporary players interviewed said. But this DE was unstoppable at the time and apparently even exceeded Coy Bacon's 29 sacks in a season. I'm also not sure how long his career was.

You younger guys have to understand that there have been a lot of rules changes to pro football since the 1950's and 1960's, most of which favored the offense over the defense. Players used to bite other players then, head slap them, trip them, gouge guys in the eye, etc...none of which was illegal. :laugh:

Pro football then was not a year round job for the players, and most did not work out year-round. Most of the players reported to camp grossly out of shape and took the weight off and got in shape during the preseason. Preseasons back then were 6 and 7 games long. The L.A. Rams even used to play preseason games against army and navy military all-star teams. :laugh:

So if a guy did come to camp in great shape, he probably had an initial advantage at the start of the season over the guys who were not in shape.

Pictures of Sonny Jurgenson's gut on reporting to camp were legendary back then. :laugh:

[inmate running the asylum]

Great research ParkCitySkins.

Yes, Norman "wild man" Willey was the guy I read about years ago. :laugh:

So lets say he got 15-17 sacks in that one game and he averaged two sacks a game as he claimed.

Then he would have had 15-17 + 11 other games or 22 more sacks, or a minumum of 37 to 39 sacks for the 12 game 1952 season. If true, wow!

[Tarhog]

Here's a nugget of trivia for you.

Deacon Jones actually appeared on an episode of 'The Brady Bunch'.

#41 The Drummer Boy

January 22, 1971

Los Angeles Rams line man, Deacon Jones, guest stars as himself as he shows up at practice when Peter is razzed by his football team.

Bobby's interest in drumming drives the family out of the house. Peter is kidded by the team because he's in the choir until Los Angeles Rams lineman, Deacon Jones, shows up at practice

And no, I have no idea why I felt compelled to share that with you

:laugh:

[DieselPwr44]

Not only did Deacon have Olsen and Grier along side of him,he also had George Allen as coach too

[ThatGuy]

I have my doubts about all these stats. Its just like when you hear people talking about home run distance in baseball. This was the rage back when McGwire was popping them a mile back a few years ago.

You'd always here... ya he hits them far... but John Doe used to hit them 700 feet. Or Babe Ruth hit them 800 feet. Everythings better when there is no record of it.

[inmate running the asylum]

Another interesting thing about DE Norman "wild man" Willey, was that he is listed as only 6-2, 224 lbs!

Of course there were also many HOF offensive linemen who blocked in those days, at only 230-240 lbs! :laugh:

[Tarhog]

I watched some Redskins footage from 1940 today Inmate. I swear they looked like High School kids. Irony is that although the size and speed of the players has changed radically, the game itself hasn't changed all that much.

But watch out for those goalposts!!!

[DieselPwr44]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

Another interesting thing about DE Norman "wild man" Willey, was that he is listed as only 6-2, 224 lbs!

Of course there were also many HOF offensive linemen who blocked in those days, at only 230-240 lbs! :laugh:

You don't have to go that far back either Inmate. The front line of the Steelers of the 70's, none of those guys were over 300 lbs. I believe they credit Joe Gibbs for bringing in the first offensive line averaging over 300 lbs too.(If I'm not mistaken here). It's amazing to me just how much the players (size and strength) have changed over the years.