SnydertheHun Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 He is the best CB in the game and one of the best players in the NFL. He is also a FA this year and will command a huge salary. If we franchise him, you can expect someone to come along and give him a huge contract and us two draft picks. So, is Champ (or any non-qb) worth a huge chunk of cap space and two first round picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Champ isn't worth the money if we can't consistantly put some pressure on the opposing QB. How good do you think he could be if the opposition couldn't just sit back there for hours and hours on end, filing their nails and doing their taxes? OK, little vent there. Back to your question. I'd say there are a few guys that are that valuable. Reggie White in his prime, LT, Barry Sanders and maybe Moss. But not many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Except for the DL. With those picks, you're really only getting 1 pick unless you have somebody close in talent to the player that was taken. In other words, you'd have to replace Champ, cuz we DON"T have anybody close to his talent. So the question is, is loosing Champ worth gettin 1 additional pick. Obviously NOT. What we have to do to make Champ better is provide constant pressure on the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASMTrainer Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Dude, if we had a pass rush, Champ would completely shut down his side of the field game in and game out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 "Champ isn't worth the money if we can't consistantly put some pressure on the opposing QB. How good do you think he could be if the opposition couldn't just sit back there for hours and hours on end, filing their nails and doing their taxes?" - FISH My question: how bad do you think our defense can be if the opposing QB not only has a ridiculous amount of time to sit in the pocket, but also has the luxury of also picking on both our corners? Don't get me wrong, with this comment I'm not attacking Smootie, but he ain't no Champ Bailey. Champ shuts down his half of the field consistently week in and week out. I don't think that any draft pick we would receive as compensation for Champ, or any free agent we sign with money saved on Bailey can have as great an impact at their respective position as Champ does at his. Pay the man ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 But I think you're right there KC Dave, this team as a whole is pretty solid, especially if we can nullify the penalties. The O is at worse solid, at best spectacular. The OL is solid, the QB a pleasent suprise, the WRs pretty damn good and the RBs acceptable. The STs are pretty damn good too. We are getting good yards in our returns, there haven't been too many collapses defending their returns and of course Hall is kicking a$$ (pun intended). As for the D - our Backers are at least solid, the secondary too is solid (looking to see how we do without Smooty) and that leaves the DL. Bottomline, you just can't have a D that does not pressure the QB. In my world, if you have to choose one part of your D to be strong, it's the DL. We have seen the test case here in DC. Our CBs are as talented any other tandem and our safeties were upgraded a bit in the off season (the Keyshawn play not withstanding). Almost any QB/WR team will beat any secondary if they have enough time. Pressure dictates how much time the QB has. The Defense that can provide constant pressure from JUST the front four is a HUGELY successfull D. A D like that gets the ball back in your O's hands sooner and more often, therefore providing more opportunities to score. That in turn makes the other O nervous and desperate, looking to catch back up with the big play. Pressure by the DL turns their attempted big plays into big plays by our all-star CBs (read INTS!!). Anyway, thst's how I see it. We're wasting the prime years of LaVar and Champ by not providing them the pressure up front they need to be spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Canadian Hog "Champ isn't worth the money if we can't consistantly put some pressure on the opposing QB. How good do you think he could be if the opposition couldn't just sit back there for hours and hours on end, filing their nails and doing their taxes?" - FISH My question: how bad do you think our defense can be if the opposing QB not only has a ridiculous amount of time to sit in the pocket, but also has the luxury of also picking on both our corners? Don't get me wrong, with this comment I'm not attacking Smootie, but he ain't no Champ Bailey. Champ shuts down his half of the field consistently week in and week out. I don't think that any draft pick we would receive as compensation for Champ, or any free agent we sign with money saved on Bailey can have as great an impact at their respective position as Champ does at his. Pay the man ! I didn't mean to come across as saying "don't pay him". What I am saying is that Champ, Lavar and Smooty will be better, spectacular even, if the enemy QB MUSt get rid of the bal within 2-3 seconds every play. I don't know too many QBs that could handle the beatings that Patrick has. If we had a DL that could hurry, hit and hurt the enemy QB, I think you'd see our INTs double or triple. Champ is great - no doubt, but we could make him even better if we apply some constant pressure up front! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Champ is no Deion, but he is the closest thing to it in the league right now plus he can tackle and is effective against the run. He certainly deserves more money than Ty Law. Give him the money if he was not on our team right now say replace him with a clone of Smoot, We would be 1-5 right now maybe 0-6. Those who want the picks there is no guarantee Derrick Strait or any other young corners can come in and even play solid. Give Champ the money stretch the years out and when he does not want to rework in 5 years cut him. Hopefully it wont come to that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Yeah, I see what you are saying FISH, and you make some very good points. I just can't see how letting a Champ Bailey go benefits the defense overall, even if we do use the saved cash from Bailey and improve the d-line significantly. That's how valuable I think he is to this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Canadian Hog Yeah, I see what you are saying FISH, and you make some very good points. I just can't see how letting a Champ Bailey go benefits the defense overall, even if we do use the saved cash from Bailey and improve the d-line significantly. That's how valuable I think he is to this team. After seeing some of the money this team is wasting on unproductive players, and the value it is getting from some of the cheap guys (Haley, Holsey, Chase), I think we can cut some of the unproductive players and afford Champ. For example, cutting Dalton and Noble alone will save $6.9M in base salaries over the two year period of 2004-05. (It's not Noble's fault he's injured; I'm just working the numbers.) Then we can draft DL #1 and #2 in next year's draft. My preference would be for a DE first, but it's important to go with the best athlete available between the positions. I do think some folks here are underrating Champ Bailey. Most opponents are lucky if they have one superstar receiver, and if they do, a lot of their offense depends on that receiver's production. Champ takes that WR out of the game and seriously upgrades our matchups overall as a result. We will still get burned by some passing teams, but only a minority of passing teams have the balanced attack (like the Bucs do) that doesn't really depend on one WR as the hero. Smoot is better than the #2 WR on most teams. So we're down to getting pressure on the QB (hence the DL upgrade) and protecting against short passes to the backs and TEs. I'm not a big fan of Champ's money-first attitude. But his performance speaks for itself. You'd be amazed how quickly our defense would get bad without two top CBs and a very solid #3 (Bauman). I think some people are a bit confused about how hard it is to acquire good CBs. We had Darrell for 20 years, then drafted Champ and Smoot back to back. Then we got Bauman with a #3 pick. That drafting magic ain't normal. We're lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Is it just me or is Champ more aggresive against the run this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by ADF Is it just me or is Champ more aggresive against the run this year? I've thought that too. He seems to be bringing more of a "playmaker" attitude to the stadium -- closing quickly on runs to his side, forcing fumbles, grabbing interceptions. The cynic in me says he's adding this stuff to his game to add to his contract-year performance. But the optimist says maybe it's just a change in attitude that's been encouraged by working with his new DC, George Edwards. Champ was never a bad tackler. It was just something he obviously didn't enjoy doing, and his standard move was just cutting the legs out of players. Now he seems to be closing on the tackle with more speed, wrapping up more, and trying to make a big play instead of just ending the play with minimum physical contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Put me in the camp that won't cry if Champ Bailey leaves and we're left with another 2 first round picks. 3 total. And spend them on all on the defensive line. I'm sorry... but I don't see the Bucs, Panthers, Colts and Vikings with shutdown corners. And those are some of the best teams in football right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan The cynic in me says he's adding this stuff to his game to add to his contract-year performance. But the optimist says maybe it's just a change in attitude that's been encouraged by working with his new DC, George Edwards. I was sort of thinking the same thing. I hope that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Die Hard Put me in the camp that won't cry if Champ Bailey leaves and we're left with another 2 first round picks. 3 total. And spend them on all on the defensive line. I'm sorry... but I don't see the Bucs, Panthers, Colts and Vikings with shutdown corners. And those are some of the best teams in football right now. We are not Tampa or Carolina, We wont be either The draft is a gamble, We dont have one dominate Dlineman and you want to take your chances on 4 lineman becoming Tampa like:doh: Look at the Browns Gerard Warren and CourtneyBrown. Do they resemble Tampa ? Champ is our corner stone. There are other ways be great on D than copy cat the latest trend. Plus at that rate you are 3years from becoming dominate and by that time our Offense will be disembled, not very smart. We can afford him off the break sign him and A free agent Pass rusher next year and Draft best player available. Maybe we could get Shaun Taylor (doubt it) but I can dream. Even another linebacker D.J. Williams and Lavar Armstead is getting older and Pierce is not a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 If resigning Champ becomes impossible, what do you all think about adding Chris McAlister? He may be a FA as well. Is he worth the trouble? He should come cheaper than Champ and we could use the extra picks on the D-line as Die Hard suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Good point Diehard.....very good point. I guess the bottom line is wins and losses, no matter how matter how big a fan many of us are for #24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Tampa and Carolina both built their defensive lines through the draft. So have the Jaguars and Patriots. So have the Eagles. Imagine that. You don't give up on that blueprint because the Cleveland Browns got hosed a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by ADF If resigning Champ becomes impossible, what do you all think about adding Chris McAlister? He may be a FA as well. Is he worth the trouble? He should come cheaper than Champ and we could use the extra picks on the D-line as Die Hard suggested. Charles Woodson as well. Champ is probally one of the best athletes in the league though. I would hate to see him go good teams have athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Die Hard Put me in the camp that won't cry if Champ Bailey leaves and we're left with another 2 first round picks. 3 total. And spend them on all on the defensive line. I'm sorry... but I don't see the Bucs, Panthers, Colts and Vikings with shutdown corners. And those are some of the best teams in football right now. That's true, but we all saw what happened to the Bucs when Indy torched them for 30+ points in the 4th quarter. Having a shutdown corner is very crucial in having a dominant D. Pay Champ what the hell he wants or just get close. Because to say we don't need him is just rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDSKNfaithfull Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Die Hard Tampa and Carolina both built their defensive lines through the draft. So have the Jaguars and Patriots. So have the Eagles. Imagine that. You don't give up on that blueprint because the Cleveland Browns got hosed a few times. Eagles Dline is not on Tampas level they Blitz a lot and yes have A GREAT! secondary. Jaguars ... I wasnt aware there defens was that great.... Patriots run a 3-4 and there best D lineman was a ageing free agent. :doh: :doh: :doh: Even Tampa, Rice came from Arizona, and Spires was a free agent pick up. Not the draft. Defensive lineman take time to develop more so than other postions and are always a gamble. Every year there is the next sapp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 let him go we can spend money on D line instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 by the way, i have seen champ get beat on TD passes before he is not unstoppable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanskins Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 The money we would spend signing 3 first round picks would easily exceed the money we would spend resigning champ! Champ is the cornerstone of our secondary! He is the next Darrell Green, and i cannot believe skins fans around the world are even suggesting parting ways with him. There are lots of ways to build our d-line without excessive draft picks! Without champ, our secondary would be a laughing stock! No rookie/rookies can make an impact like champ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 If we had a great DL, then we wouldn't need him. The thing is, the 2 first round picks we would get would be a 2004 pick and a 2005 pick. We'd have 2 picks for the next couple of years, but would that mean much. We'll still need to have another corner. Of course, Charles Woodson is a free agent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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