VT's Bold Assertions: Episode One

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Allow me to preface this thread by introducing what I hope to do. I've been thinking for a while now that it would be fun to get a miniseries going here in ATN; I have several key topics that I think are "bold assertions" and that should inspire great debate. They're topics that are slightly skewed with the intention of stirring the pot; but I really believe that they will inspire some wonderful rhetoric amongst us. So without further ado, allow me to introduce my first bold prediction, and make no mistake, the timing is no coincidence.

Assertion: Regardless of what happens on Sunday, ELI is the better Manning.

I know, trust me, I know. It sounds crazy. Some of you will go to your grave believing that Peyton is the GOAT (laughable in my opinion. But let's assume the worst for Eli (and boy do I hate him). If the giants lose on Sunday, he drops to 1-1 in the superbowl, just like Peyton. He also has a superbowl MVP, just like Peyton.

The true disparity comes in the regular season, where Peyton has 4 (count 'em) MVPs in the regular season. However, Peyton also has 5 extra seasons on Eli. So let's check out the stats. Peyton thrice broke the 4500 yard mark, Eli had never done it until this year. The touchdown numbers certainly favor Peyton's dominance. However, I believe that certain factors lead us away from this thinking.

Peyton has played with nearly a dozen hall of fame, or future HOF, players. Let's count them up. Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Faulk, and Saturday. And that isn't counting Edge James, who probably ends up with an Art Monk like wait to get in, or Tarik Glen who I believe will be close.

How many HOF players are on Eli's Offense? Diehl...and? Yeah, that's what I thought. And Giants fans, I don't mean this as a slight, believe me. I suppose you may be able to count Toomer...maybe?

Peyton also has the benefit of countless first round picks spent on offense for this teams. Beginning with Faulk in 94, the colts used FIRST round picks on OFFENSIVE players ELEVEN times. These players include some busts (Addai, Brown) but many HOFers such as the ones mentioned above (Harrison, Edge, Clark.) For the purpose of this argument. we'll leave the number at 10, because Costanzo did not play this year with Manning due to his injury.

Eli has played with FOUR first round picks starting with the 5 years before his own draft. These include the successful Nicks and Petitgout, the controversial Shockey, and the illustrious career of Ron Dayne.

In short, I think each QB has statistics that are the product of their offense. However, I believe that when the chips are on the table, the game is on the line, and weather gets cold, the hits start to hurt, and you need to make a play, Peyton chokes and Eli is clutch. Let's not forget that Peyton won is ring against a REX GROSSMAN led bears team, while Eli won his against one of the greatest teams in league history.

I know full well that I'm in the minority, but as I said, the purpose is to prompt discussion. So have at it, is my assertion fact or fiction? And while we're at it; what happens if Eli WINS on Sunday? Then what?

[Hitman21ST]

I know, trust me, I know. It sounds crazy. Some of you will go to your grave believing that Peyton is the GOAT (laughable in my opinion. But let's assume the worst for Eli (and boy do I hate him). If the giants lose on Sunday, he drops to 1-1 in the superbowl, just like Peyton. He also has a superbowl MVP, just like Peyton.

The true disparity comes in the regular season, where Peyton has 4 (count 'em) MVPs in the regular season. However, Peyton also has 5 extra seasons on Eli. So let's check out the stats. Peyton thrice broke the 4500 yard mark, Eli had never done it until this year. The touchdown numbers certainly favor Peyton's dominance. However, I believe that certain factors lead us away from this thinking.

Peyton has played with nearly a dozen hall of fame, or future HOF, players. Let's count them up. Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Faulk, and Saturday. And that isn't counting Edge James, who probably ends up with an Art Monk like wait to get in, or Tarik Glen who I believe will be close.

How many HOF players are on Eli's Offense? Diehl...and? Yeah, that's what I thought. And Giants fans, I don't mean this as a slight, believe me. I suppose you may be able to count Toomer...maybe?

Peyton also has the benefit of countless first round picks spent on offense for this teams. Beginning with Faulk in 94, the colts used FIRST round picks on OFFENSIVE players ELEVEN times. These players include some busts (Addai, Brown) but many HOFers such as the ones mentioned above (Harrison, Edge, Clark.) For the purpose of this argument. we'll leave the number at 10, because Costanzo did not play this year with Manning due to his injury.

Eli has played with FOUR first round picks starting with the 5 years before his own draft. These include the successful Nicks and Petitgout, the controversial Shockey, and the illustrious career of Ron Dayne. In short, I think each QB has statistics that are the product of their offense. However, I believe that when the chips are on the table, the game is on the line, and weather gets cold, the hits start to hurt, and you need to make a play, Peyton chokes and Eli is clutch. Let's not forget that Peyton won is ring against a REX GROSSMAN led bears team, while Eli won his against one of the greatest teams in league history.

I know full well that I'm in the minority, but as I said, the purpose is to prompt discussion. So have at it, is my assertion fact or fiction? And while we're at it; what happens if Eli WINS on Sunday? Then what?

Yes, Peyton's Super Bowl was against Rex Grossman, but he had to beat Tom Brady and the Pats to get there, so you can't really hold that against him. If the Colts were in the NFC, then we would have probably seen at least 2 or 3 Colts-Pats Super Bowls IMO.

Yes, Peyton has had the offensive firepower, but his defenses have been lacking. Eli, on the other hand, has had outstanding defenses for his playoff runs (maybe not regular season, but the playoffs they've been great). Since Eli was drafted, they spent six of seven first picks on defense (Corey Webster, Mathias Kiwanuka, Aaron Ross, Kenny Phillips, Jason Pierre-Paul, Prince Amukamara), all of whom have started and significantly contributed.

Right now, I would say Eli is just a small notch below Peyton (because of Peyton's regular season stats), but if he wins on Sunday then he goes right ahead of him.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I certainly can't argue that Peyton's had the better regular season career; and that means a lot to some people. I've always been one to judge QBs, and most players really, by what they do in the post season.

Eli's best year by touchdowns is barely sniffing Peyton's average TDs per for his career. That said, Peyton's never come close to a 5,000 yard season, and Eli fell just 67 yards short.

For me, personally, I just feel like Peyton thinks it's supposed to be easy because he's Peyton. Every year he'd get to the playoffs are stare, dumbfounded, from the bench in disbelief. It was like he couldn't believe that a playoff defense was pressuring him or disguising their coverages and making him throw interceptions. I'll never forget him sitting on the sideline against the Saints in the middle of the third quarter. He was just sitting on the bench with his arms folded over sulking. There was no inspirational pep talk, there was no getting up to light a fire under the team. It was more as if he was asking himself "how did this happen to me, the greatest of all time?" Hell, even against the bears, I don't remember any spectacular plays. He had one beautiful bomb in the first half, but I remember him mostly checking down incessantly to Addai and Brown against the very vanilla bears cover 2 shell.

Eli on the other hand, just seems to play balls out. That catch by Tyre? Sure, it was amazing, but Eli made some crazy **** happen just to get that pass off. He made the play to Plax when it counted. And most importantly (in my opinion) he didn't look like he'd already given up, ever. And I'm a huge Tom Brady fan; I love watching the Pats and seeing how a dynasty plays. I was rooting hard against the Giants and I hate thinking about that superbowl, but the goofy kid brother played like it meant something to him.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Eli's best year by touchdowns is barely sniffing Peyton's average TDs per for his career. That said, Peyton's never come close to a 5,000 yard season, and Eli fell just 67 yards short.

A sub-5,000 yard season wasn't actually terribly impressive in 2011, though. :pfft:

For me, personally, I just feel like Peyton thinks it's supposed to be easy because he's Peyton. Every year he'd get to the playoffs are stare, dumbfounded, from the bench in disbelief. It was like he couldn't believe that a playoff defense was pressuring him or disguising their coverages and making him throw interceptions.

Eli on the other hand, just seems to play balls out. That catch by Tyre? Sure, it was amazing, but Eli made some crazy **** happen just to get that pass off. He made the play to Plax when it counted. And most importantly (in my opinion) he didn't look like he'd already given up, ever.

There's been far more pressure on Peyton to perform as an individual. When he's having trouble there usually isn't anyone who can help bail him out on that Colts team. Offensively, he's had a bevy of productive receivers, running backs, and Dallas Clark but none of them have been truly overwhelming talents. They've all been hard-working, disciplined, reliable, and quite effective but I'd argue that they benefited from Peyton more than he's benefited from them. Defensively, Sanders was of great help when healthy and you could also make a case for Freeney/Mathis but those two have always been a double-edged sword. It's real easy to get frustrated when so much of the burden lies solely on your shoulders. I am also inclined to believe that the "Peyton thinks it should be easy because he's Peyton" is just plain fallacious.

Eli has far less pressure to create plays for his players. He's always had a tremendous amount of help offensively and has been the major beneficiary of some amazing plays on the ball in the air by his receivers on less than stellar throws. There's no question in my mind that Peyton is the superior pure QB. However, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Eli has the more successful career when it's all said and done.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Very valid points. The old argument of who helps the other more is always at play, especially with QB and WR tandems. I can't really argue with any of what you say; Peyton is a hell of a QB. But everyone always wants to talk about how amazing that offense is and how much that defense has held him back. Let's take a look at postseason history:

2010 Loss to the Jets 17-16 Wildcard Round

2009 Loss to the Saints 31-17 Superbowl

2008 Loss to the Chargers 23-17 Wildcard round

2007 Loss to the Chargers 28-24 Divisional Round

2006 Won the Superbowl

2005 Loss to the Steelers 21-18 Divisional Round

2004 Loss to the Patriots 20-3 Divisional Round

2003 Loss to the Patriots 24-14 Conference Championship

Just looking at those, the Saints and the Chargers (the first time) are the only team to score more than 25 points on that "horrible" colts offense. You can't paint some picture of Peyton going out and throwing 6 touchdowns and losing because his defense sucked. This isn't Dan Fouts and the Chargers. This is the case of the best regular season QB of all time choking in the playoffs and ONCE breaking 20 points in his 7 playoff losses dating back to 2003. Moreover, 2 of those losses came in the wildcard round, and 2 more came in the divisional when they were playing off of a bye. In 4 of his past 8 playoff seasons, Manning hasn't even sniffed 20 points and failed to advance.

In Manning's last 8 seasons we have:

1 Superbowl win

1 Loss in conference championship

4 Losses in the first game (be it wildcard or after a 1st round bye)

2 Losses in the divisional round

And amongst those 7 losses, he only breaks 20 points once. You can't tell me his defense let him down.

I personally believe Peyton is the GOAT in the regular season, and a very pedestrian QB in the postseason. I don't believe for a moment that Elway, Montana, Marino, Starr, Young, or the other greats would have let their offenses be embarrassed so thoroughly.

But I don't mean to derail the thread too much. This is supposed to be about Eli too. So tell me, what does Eli need to do do "be the better Manning?"

[HeluCopter29]

Peyton is better then Eli every day of the week. Except when Peyton has a neck injury.

Peyton has threw for over 4,000 yards his second year as a starter and has done that every year since. Eli has only thrown for 4,000 yards three times in his seven years as a starter. Eli has also had a much better run game and defense for almost his entire career. He's been called on more often then Peyton to manage the game because he's had much more help.

You mention that Peyton's had more HOFers. Harrison and Saturday I'd agree have good shots at the HOF. However Clark and Wayne have both had massive drop offs without Peyton. He only had one year with Marshall Faulk in 1998. Edgerin James was good for about three years. Eli has always benefited from better players, especially on defense and has one one five WR tandems this year that both have 1000+ yards receiving.

Eli has had a pretty good year, no denying it but let's not start saying he's better then Peyton quite yet.

[MattFancy]

Eli is winning because of his team's defense. This was a .500 through 14 games this year. They've just gotten hot at the right time. If Peyton had a defense like the Giants, he'd have at least 2 more Super Bowls.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I disagree. This team was a .500 team because of that horrible defense. They faced injuries and all around terrible play in the secondary. Then they put it together. Eli was the glue that held them together and kept them in position to go for it.

See my above post. It hasn't been Manning's defense that has knocked him out of the playoffs the past 8 years.

[Warhead36]

Peyton Manning isn't just one of the best QBs of all time. He revolutionized the position. Nobody has ever done what he's done. He IS the Colts offense. That's why he's the better Manning, REGARDLESS of what happens on Sunday.

With that said, Eli is damn good in his own right and looks like he might be on track for a HOF career himself now.

[Big Blue Joe]

Eli is winning because of his team's defense. This was a .500 through 14 games this year. They've just gotten hot at the right time. If Peyton had a defense like the Giants, he'd have at least 2 more Super Bowls.

This year, the Giants' OL gave up the most QB pressures and hits in the NFL (by a significant margin), the running game averaged the fewest yards per game in the NFL, and in week 15, the defense was 28th in the league in scoring defense. That the Giants had a .500 record, in week 15, is a testament to how good Eli was this year.

[scyber]

I'm a giants fan and I don't think you can say Eli is the better Manning. At least not yet. At they end of his career you might be able to say that, but right now, I don't think so. Peyton has been a phenomenal QB for his entire career. Eli took alot longer, but is now playing at a very high level. By the time Eli is done playing, he may be the better manning, but as of now, I don't think he is.

What I think is kinda funny is that if Eli wins on Sunday the relationship of Brady to Eli will be similar to the relationship of Peyton to Brady pre 2006. From 2001-2005, Peyton was the one putting up great regular season stats, but it was Brady that was having the most post-season success. The Pats eliminated the Colts in '03 and '04. 2006-now, Brady has been putting up great regular season stats,but Eli has having much better post season success. And the giants eliminating the pats in '07 and '11 (once again, assuming that the Giants win this weekend). Now I'm not saying that Eli is or will ever be as good as Brady, just commenting how the relationship between the qbs is similar.