Redskins Rant...

[Mickalino]

I wanted to put this here because

a.) I'm opinionated, but not really knowledgeable enough to hang with the big dogs in the other forum.

Stadium ? Knowledgable ?

:hysterical: :hysterical:

[JMS]

Nothing I said was incorrect. He was fired as a head coach twice in 16 years on the job and once as a coordinator due to reasons that were not performance-related. Every other time he has changed positions during his career has been through re-hiring and inevitable promotion.

You stated flat out that he had been fired from three or four teams.

OK, fired three times, from two different franchises. Once as an assistant ( Denver)... Twice as a head coach ( Oakland and Denver ).

They remained relevant all nine seasons and faced heavy competition .....

Oh you mean he actually had competition? well that explains why he sucked. It wasn't because he was so poor, it's because the other teams were better.

He won one playoff game in 9 years. That's not relevant. That's not what Redskins fans will be satisfied with. That's not a record to be arogant about. But it's Shanahan's record.....

With a Hall of fame once in a generation QB like Elway, a quaterback who he didin't pick, but inherited; he's won two superbowls.

Without such a player, and with total control of the scouts and draft, he's won ONE playoff game in eleven years. ( 2 with Raders, 9 with Denver less Elway ).

Vermeil never got it done with the Chiefs and Schottenheimer never got it done with anyone but there is absolutely no way in hell you can sit there and tell me you wouldn't want one of those guys to oversee the rebuilding of your franchise.

Vermeil won super bowls with two franchises with teams he assembled from scratch. I wouldn't mention Vermeil in the same breath as Shanahan.

You are right Marty never won the big game. But he did win more than one playoff game in any given 9 year stint in his career. In his 21 year career he made the playoffs 14 times and won 5 playoff games... Never had a hall of fame QB.

Also Marty's system improved 4 franchises 3 of which went to the playoffs. I agree the knock on marty is he's never won the big game. I disagree though that shanahan's 11 years without Elway match up favorable to Marty's career.

What do you think the odds of drafting a Hall of Fame QB are? It requires some good scouting and a LOT of luck. Shanahan may not have been able to find another HoF QB to work with after Elway but he was at least able to find players who fit what he was trying to do within reason.

Not many coaches/GMs are able to do that consistently.

I would argue a guy like Elway comes around once in a generation. You have to win in the NFL without such guys. Shanahan has not proven over 11 years that he is capable of doing that.

Norv Turner matched Shanahan's 1 playoff win in his seven years here. He got fired for it.

You're absolutely right. His choices on defense are a major concern and why I am only keen on defending his (good) offensive track record. In various Stadium threads I have expressed reservations and doubts about Slowik.

Problem is the head coach position which you are describing will have significant say on offense as well as defense over coaching hires and personell. Shanahan's head coaching record says he doesn't balance that very well. Hire him as an offensive Quardinator if you want. But hiring him as a head coach is hiring poor to mediocre talent. Hiring and giving him the power associated with the top coaches in the business is insane and a receipe for disaster.

A fair point... but Gibbs was only .674 before his second stint. He also had the benefit of coaching before the salary cap came into play.

Gibbs had the second highest winning perentage in the playoffs of any coach in NFL history... in his first stint here. Gibbs was a fantastic coach. His teams rarely had the superior talent, they were always the best coached, and best prepared. Gibbs was famous for his halftime adjustments.... Nobody is going to compare Gibbs with Shanahan. Nobody.

Shanahan is to Denver what Joe Gibbs is to us. Fortunately for us, the Skins have been the better franchise historically and Gibbs has a lead in Super Bowls won.

No he's really not. Washington never has and never will run Joe Gibbs out of town on a rail. That's what Denver did to Shanahan.

Joe Gibbs coached here for 12 years the first time around. Won 16 playoff games, 6 division titles, 4 NFC championships, 3 super bowls.

Never had a hall of fame QB.

Mike Shannahan without his Hall of fame QB coached 11 years.

Won 1 playoff game, 1 division title, 0 conference championships, 0 super bowls.

It seems to me like you need to temper your expectations a little bit. Shanahan is the best available established head coach. You obviously don't like him but the reality is that we could do a lot worse.

He's mediocre. We are aspireing to be mediocre. That's my problem with his hire. Hire a great established coach and give him the power. Hire a great up and coming coach and help him reach his potential.

Why hire a mediocre established coach and give him total control over your franchies?

He won the NFL Executive of the Year award with the Raiders in 2002. At least he has some credentials unlike the guy he's replacing. I can live with baby steps.

Bruce Allen wasn't a GM in 2002 with the Raiders. Allen has never been a sucessful GM. His only GM stint was with TB where he took a super championship team and destroyed it. Fired two HoF players who went on to play for another half a decade each in the NFL for other franchises. Tampa Bay was a far superior team the year before Bruce Allen arrived compared with the year he left due to being fired. Allen is not an improvement, he's just more of the same. He's never ever shown he can suceed at the GM level.

His proven track record/talent shows him to be a guy who will shut up and follow orders, no matter how stupid those orders are. Not the guy you want in charge of your Organization from a fan perspective.

Maybe you are right that's because he just wasn't in the right situation in his SINGLE gm job in his 30+ years in football.

[JMS]

The Patriots also heavily utilize free agency.

This thread belongs in the Stadium... don't be afraid JMS of the people in there, they are not as wise as you fear.

Pats build through the draft. They augment with free agents. They fill gaps with free agents. They don't build their team around free agents like we do.

[stevenaa]

That's typically the GM's job.

I don't agree with this. GM's on teams that draft well get the credit, but it's the scouting department that plays the much larger role. Bring in a stud head of scouting and the GM will look like a personnel genius. I want a GM to set the direction and manage the journey. Put into place the people who have the specific skills to get it done.

[JMS]

I don't agree with this. GM's on teams that draft well get the credit, but it's the scouting department that plays the much larger role. Bring in a stud head of scouting and the GM will look like a personnel genius. I want a GM to set the direction and manage the journey. Put into place the people who have the specific skills to get it done.

The scouting department is typically under the GM, not the head coach. Most sucessful organizations have a front office independent from the coaching staff which makes the strategic decisions about the team, like free agents and draft picks....

The GM's decide who comes to camp. The coaches decide who stays.

There are exceptions, some organizations who have highly sucessful head coaches do go a different direction. The Pat's Bill Belichick, Bill Parcels, Dick Vermeil, and Joe Gibbs have all had some sucess in this model. Shananaghans is not a highly sucessful head coach in the league with these other guys.

If you can get a great head coach, you do what you have to do to sign him. But if your option is a mediocre coach; Why put the future of your entire organizaiton in his hands when you have other options?

From a Redskins perspective. We've been rebuilding here for nearly two decades (1994!). Every time we fire a coach we effectively fire the entire front office and have to start from scratch because our coaches have been so involved in talent selection.

It's sounding like Bruce Allen and Shananagans is more of the same.

Since Shananagans has never proven to be an effective judge of NFL talent and has never been competent to actually assemble a playoff wining team and coach at the same time.... Why not hire a front office guy who has, and put him in charge of assembling the team.

Why not concentrate on infrastrucure and let them do the heavy lifting?

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I'm not worried about the offense if Shannahan comes here. What worries me is who he's going to make our D-Coordinator. Denver was notorious for their ****ty defenses. I hope we can find another Greg Williams or Rex Ryan out there

[JMS]

I'm not worried about the offense if Shannahan comes here. What worries me is who he's going to make our D-Coordinator. Denver was notorious for their ****ty defenses. I hope we can find another Greg Williams or Rex Ryan out there

Shananagan had 4 different defensive coordinators in 9 years in Denver and they all stunk. the only common component throughout that time was Shananagan.

Clearly he doesn't care about defense and doesn't invest the organizations draft picks or resources into defense when he's in charge of those resources.

that's been his MO.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Shananagan had 4 different defensive coordinators in 9 years in Denver and they all stunk. the only common component throughout that time was Shananagan.

Clearly he doesn't care about defense and doesn't invest the organizations draft picks or resources into defense when he's in charge of those resources.

that's been his MO.

What has bothered me the past couple years is our inability to do anything on offense consistently. I'm scared that we've wasted all these good years of defense, so that when the offense finally comes around, our defense will be the liability.

[JMS]

What has bothered me the past couple years is our inability to do anything on offense consistently. I'm scared that we've wasted all these good years of defense, so that when the offense finally comes around, our defense will be the liability.

I have the same concern, but I would voice it differently. My concern is we hand the coach de jour all the power over the front office. then when he leaves the new coach de jour starts all over again with a different set of priorities.

That "strategy" has kept us prepetually rebuilding now going on two decades... ( 1994).

I would argue a struggling franchises better strategy for sucess is to hire a competent GM. Let him hire the coach and fire the coach. Then when the coach leaves at least you have continuity and you don't have to start rebuilding from scratch again and again and again.

[GibbsFactor]

JMS, I wasn't saying Shanahan's the answer, just trying to lay out what appears to be happening.

The good news is that Shanahan didn't have many bad seasons.

But in reality, all it takes is a franchise quarterback. If we can land or develop a top 8 QB, I think the rest falls into place.

Anyway you look at it, it does appear that Redskins of old are no more and that Snyder wants to do the right thing. What Bruce Allen does that's so good is the way he structures contracts to expand a team's actual cap space. His last year in Tampa Bay their cap ceilling was $154 mil. They were well under that but his ability to increase the cap is a good thing with an owner who doesn't mind spending.