Jump to content
Washington Football Team Logo
Extremeskins

Redskins Rant...


JMS

Recommended Posts

I wanted to put this here because

a.) I'm opinionated, but not really knowledgeable enough to hang with the big dogs in the other forum.

b.) I wanted to get the Tail gates perspective.

I'm just curios why we hired Bruce Allen? Bruce was GM for TB before he got ousted and TB is one of the two teams more pathetic than the skins this year. One of the few teams we actually defeated.

Why do you think we didn't hire the St Louis GM and decided to go for the slightly less pathetic TB franchises former GM?

Also who remembers the "masterful" personell moves made By George Allen when he came here? Trading away all our #1 picks and most of our #2 picks for a decade and declairing the future is now...

George Allen was a great defensive coach. Decent Head Coach. Pathetic personel guy. His best talent was motivator, that and collecting old stars to fill his roster.

If we wanted a great personel man. Why didn't Snyder swallow his pride and pick up the phone and talk to the two Redskins personell men who have won super bowls and are out there looking for work? First Boby Betherd who is out there hireable. Bethard wants control of the scouts and draft picks. Small price to pay for a truely great personell man.

Second would be Caserly. I don't think Caserly is one of the best personell men in NFL history as Bethard was. But Caserly is a pretty good GM. Given Snyders pockets he could be a great personell guy. Only problem with Caserly is I'm not sure he's tough enoug to stand up to Snyder when he's doing harm. Bethard would be.

Bruce Allen punted for my highschool football team, Langley Saxons. Seems like a nice guy. He's a guy who has been around. I don't think he's ever been a sucessful GM and the guy is in his mid 50's. I don't think he makes much sense for the Redskins. I think if his last name was Murphy he wouldn't have gotten the job. I think his hire is another attempt to pull at skins fans heart strings. It's another lack of a plan, not a genuine attempt to get better.

Hell why not Hire bethard and Caserly as consultants to give Bruce some resources. Sucessful GM's to talk over things with.

Other than that I hope they keep Buges, I hope we go out get Grimm back at some point too. They're the type of nestolgia I can get behind. Guys who prove everyday they know what they are doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone explain to me why Redskins fans can't move forward? Beathard? a 70 something surfer who has no desire to come back. Casserly? What the hell did he ever do so great after Beathard left. Hell, let's re-sign Riggins and Joe Theismann to a deal since we're trying to live in the past. And did Bruce Allen trade away all of Oakland or Tampa's draft picks away for veterans like his dad? Jeez, use your head. Bad thread, bad rant. At least do some research.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone explain to me why Redskins fans can't move forward? Beathard? a 70 something surfer who has no desire to come back. Casserly? What the hell did he ever do so great after Beathard left. Hell, let's re-sign Riggins and Joe Theismann to a deal since we're trying to live in the past.

Bobby Bethard is in his late sixties there champ. and he took seven teams and three franchises to super bowls. Sports Illistrated has called him the smartest man in football. Those are the kind of guys you don't want to move away from.

Bobby was almost re-hired by Snyder back when Marty was let go. The deal fell appart when the Ball coach got record money to come here and Bobby's compensation wasn't comparable. Huge mistake. If Bobby were hired and not the ball coach we likely would have been to a few superbowls in the last 8 years. I truely believe that.

As for Casserly... He won a super bowl here with Gibs. I'd say that's something memorable.

And did Bruce Allen trade away all of Oakland or Tampa's draft picks away for veterans like his dad? Jeez, use your head. Bad thread, bad rant. At least do some research.

Well he wasn't GM in Oakland. But he did dismantle a Tampa bay team who were far better the year before he got there than they were 12 months after he arrived. Or the year he left, 2008 when they sucked.

TB still hasn't recovered. They are 2-12 this year and have a roster which Bruce largely selected. Is that the "legacy" we have to look forward too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Answer to the OP: Mike Shanahan

Again, I have to ask myself... Why? Either get a young guy who is respected, or get an older guy with a proven track record.

Shanahan is neither. He's an old guy who was hired and fired by three or four franchise and has only ever been a winner when he had a hall of fame established QB. Basically a once in a lifetime talent who Shanahan inherited (stole) from Dan Reeves. Shanahan neither found him in the draft, nor developed Elway. He was hired as QB coach by Denver after Elway had already been to four super bowls and basically inspired a mutany against Dan Reeves.

Shanahan is a coach who as a personell man was considered aragant and prideful more than competent.

I don't get why Doug and Mike our at the top of the wish list other than the fact a lot of other guys won't work with Danny? My thinking is not wanting to work with danny is correctable. Danny just has to be willing to not meddel and say so in writing. Danny needs an old hand to school him on how to be a good owner.

That will be hard for Danny to hear, but that's what he's got to do.

Jack Kent Cooke wasn't a hands off owner. He just knew how to use his people and not interfere with them.

I like Danny. I like his commitment and his will to win. His willingness to try new things and take chances. I like Dan Snyder. He just hasn't put the pieces around himself to best to be sucessful yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Think about the coaching staff that's rumored to be being set up in the wings at the moment...

And, isn't there discussion that we are going to be possibly bringing in a personnel guy as well?

Typically the GM is the personel guy. The VP of Operations runs the business over the GM. Danny has usually hired one guy to be both.

In Gibs case, Gibs basically wore all three hats. VP of Football Operations, GM and Head Coach.

Which is a terrible idea. It's too much for anybody to handle.

Shannahan has the ego to think he can do it though... I only see dark clouds ahead for my beloved skins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Think about the coaching staff that's rumored to be being set up in the wings at the moment...

And, isn't there discussion that we are going to be possibly bringing in a personnel guy as well?

There were whispers about Eric DeCosta from the Ravens, but I think they're about a week old without any updates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, I have to ask myself... Why? Either get a young guy who is respected, or get an older guy with a proven track record.

Shanahan is neither.

You'll get no disagreement from me. Although I'm excited to hopefully get on the right track, Bill Cowher would have been my first choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'll get no disagreement from me. Although I'm excited to hopefully get on the right track, Bill Cowher would have been my first choice.

I think the Steelers have a hell of a front office. It's the strength of their franchise, like it used to be one of the strengths of ours. I think Bill benifited from that to a great extent. Bill always had very talented if not the most talented team, he didn't always have the best coached teams.

I think of the Steelers under Cower like the Vikings of the 1980's. Monster talented teams which typically ended in disappointment. What was that Vikings old coach.. Jerry Burns?

The guy who couldn't find an offensive use for Hershal Walker in his prime..

Cower is beter than Burns. Cower is beter than Shanahan. He's competent, he's not an ego maniac, and he's a top notch motivator. I don't know if Cower has is the X's and O's. Just my opinion.

I remember when he was with the Raders and balled out some of his veterans including Howie Long for sitting on their helmets. He lost the team four games into his second season.

I'd say Shanahan has the X's and O's. but little else.

Then again Cower used to loose his best players every offseason to free agency. Franchise, couldn't afford to keep them. Also the Front office took forever to get Cower a decent QB. They suffered for years with "Slash" before drafting Rothlessburger. Maybe you are right and Cower should be a good fit here. Cower wouldn't have any of those problems with Danny at his back.

Heard Cower is wanting to go to NC though. He's from down there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So here is what I would tell Danny...

#1 Teams are built around the draft, not free agency. If you build around free agency two bad things happen. You get a roster full of mercenaries, not a team. Often times when you give big money to a player, they change.

#2 You can still be active in free agency, not to build your team but to add pieces once your team is built. Free agency is not a subsitute for the draft, it's an augment.

#3 Build your front office first. Coaches come and go and some will be good and some won't. But if you establish a good front office you will always have talent and even if coaches come and go the talent will keep you compeditive and your actions aligned with your goals. GM's are more important therefore than coaches. They give you continuety across different coaching regimes. They also are your organizations professional second opinion on all things football. Teams can winn consistantly with great GM's and medocre coaches. But not the other way around.

#4 When you are building a team. You have different goals in the draft in the beginning than at the end. In the first few years of building a team, concentrate on the linemen. Linemen aren't flashy or saleable to the public, but their careers are longer than the flashy guys. If you set a good base with good linemen in the beginning your teams will always be compeditive and you can add the talent second. The fast talent positions guys have shorter careers and will need to be change more offten. Get the lines set first; and then continue to augment them with lower round draft picks every year moving into the future. Develop your depth at the lines...

then go for the QB's and WR's, RB's and Secondary positions.

Great lines can make average QB's and RB's Great. ( Mark Rypien, Tim Smith).

Poor lines can also make Great QB's look Poor.

Also great lines fix your short yardage problems. The giant's showed you Monday that with a dominating OLine, you can take 8-9 minutes off the clock, score and shorten the game clock. The other guys Offense just can't get on the field.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what's going on.

Bruce Allen was brought in NOW for a couple of reasons.

1. Snyder couldn't fire his coach from past actions (Norvel) but...

2. Snyder felt compelled to take action now. Vinny being the scape goat.

3. Snyder also felt doing this now gives him advantages with fan perception and allows Allen to more thoroughly examine the Skins current state.

Bruce Allen was brought in for a few reasons.

1. He's a salary cap guy, negotiator. He's here to fix our mess we create every year by having to renegotiate existing contracts to get under the cap after signing free agents. This keeps us in perpetual salary cap hell.

2. With no CBA agreement by March, many of these players who renegotiated contracts (see Clinton Portis, Randy Thomas, Chris Samuels, Griffith, Daniels, Moss, ARE) can be cut allowing their signing bonus to hit in 2010 and not through the length of their new contracts.

3. He's rumored to be the guy Mike Shanahan wants running the money side.

He is not here to be a personnel guy or the be all end all Football executive. If Shanahan is hired he is likely to bring in other personnel people. Also, Doug Williams is rumored to come head the scouting department.

Bruce Allen is not a personnel guy. Looking at his teams drafts are futile as he had very little input. During his time with Gruden, Gruden is said to have ruled the draft boards.

Bruce Allen is here to make sure the team has appropriate depth and does not overspend on starters.

The idea is that Shanahan will come in as Team President\Coach similar to what Joe Gibbs did for us. There is a possibility that Shanahan does not coach and goes the Parcels/Holmgren route.

Shanahan is also rumored to bring his son, Kyle, in from Houston to run our offense. The defense is a little more questionable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. He's a salary cap guy, negotiator. He's here to fix our mess we create every year by having to renegotiate existing contracts to get under the cap after signing free agents. This keeps us in perpetual salary cap hell.

Now assuming you know more than I... Lets just make that a given...

Why would they make Bruce Allen a GM if he isn't the personell guy. That's typically the GM's job. Also Bruce Allen ran the draft for TB, not Gruden... Although I'm sure Bruce Allen took Grudent's input as stone tablets from the burning bush.

Bruce wasn't a failure in TB just because of poor drafts however. Bruce was a failure in TB because he took a superbowl winning team and destroyed it. Then wasn't able to re-assemble even a decent team in the interviening 5 years.

His first move as GM... was to release two TB hall of fame players who both went on to play for five more years. Play well for 5 more years especially Lynch.

My personal favorite Bruce Allen Stat..... Used seven starting QB's over five years!!! What a personell man.

Makes Sense Shanahan will be his own personel man. He's got that kiind of ego. And he's coniving enough to want Bruce to be the GM so Snyder doesn't hire another one over him.

As for Shanahan as a Parcells type of guy. A trusted hand overseeing the organization. I just don't think Shanahan was ever known as an exceptional personell guy. Why not get a guy who actually has a reputation for personell and make him top football guy.... Again I have to ask. Why not get Bobby Bethard back in here? Or somebody who was at least a sucessful personell guy. sombody from the stealers front office, the Saints or Indi?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saints & Vikings?

Vikes were built through the draft, The core of their team were draft choices. they just went out to the free agent market to aquire a few finishing peices like a QB. Did they even sign any free agents this year other than Farve? I don't think they did. They picked up that Seatle O lineman a few years back.

The Saints didn't pick up many free agents this year either. Brees was a free agent a few years ago. Other than him though I don't think they've acquired many high priced free agents.

Correct me if I'm wrong please..

The skins have been the most acitive team on Free agency in the history of the league. We're the Yankees of the NFL. Steinbrenner is actually Dan's role model. We've had multiple drafts were we didn't get anybody on the first day cause we pretty much exclusively built through the FA market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shanahan is neither. He's an old guy who was hired and fired by three or four franchise and has only ever been a winner when he had a hall of fame established QB. Basically a once in a lifetime talent who Shanahan inherited (stole) from Dan Reeves. Shanahan neither found him in the draft, nor developed Elway. He was hired as QB coach by Denver after Elway had already been to four super bowls and basically inspired a mutany against Dan Reeves.

Shanahan has been hired and fired by only two franchises (one twice). Incoming complete history...

He was with the Oakland Raiders for less than two seasons ('88-'89) after being an offensive coordinator ('85-'87) and receivers coach ('84) in Denver under Dan Reeves. He then went back to Denver as a quarterbacks coach ('90) and offensive coordinator ('91). Reeves then fired Shanahan in a situation that was a little more complicated than orchestrated mutiny as you're suggesting (link). He ended up going to the 49ers and was offensive coordinator under Seifert for three years ('92-'94) during which time the 9ers won a Super Bowl.

Reeves himself had been replaced by Wade Phillips after the '92 season and Shanahan was brought back in as head coach starting in '95. From '95 to '08 he won two Super Bowls with Elway and managed to be in playoff contention every year even with guys like Brian Griese, Jake the Snake, and Jay Cutler. He's squeezed more production out of those three than anyone else has been able to before or since. Denver's defense fell apart the last few seasons and Shanahan got the boot despite still having a terrific offense. Supposedly his refusal to fire Bob Slowik (then d. coordinator) is what ultimately led Bowlen to push him out.

If you haven't noticed by now, Shanahan was either the head coach or offensive coordinator for Denver four out of the five times Elway made a Super Bowl appearance. He worked with Elway on and off and in varying capacities from 1984 (Elway's second year) until Elway retired.

So to get back to this...

Again, I have to ask myself... Why? Either get a young guy who is respected, or get an older guy with a proven track record.

Shanahan has a .550 head coaching record without Elway and was .616 overall in Denver. To compare, Joe Gibbs' career record in Washington was .621.

Part of the allure of bringing in Mike is also the possibility of his son Kyle coming in as coordinator. Kyle is younger than McDaniels and is currently the Texans offensive coordinator under Gary Kubiak. The Texans have one of the best offenses in the league this year.

As for Bruce Allen...

Bruce wasn't a failure in TB just because of poor drafts however. Bruce was a failure in TB because he took a superbowl winning team and destroyed it. Then wasn't able to re-assemble even a decent team in the interviening 5 years.

That's highly debatable. Gruden messed around with the QB situation a bit too much and fielded some very miserable offenses. I don't believe TB finished in the top half of the league more than twice in Gruden's seven years as coach.

The financial situation was also very messy. The Glazers, who own the franchise, began the rather expensive (close to $1 billion, I believe) process of acquiring Manchester United in 2003 and really clamped down on spending. Allen's primary job down there from day one seemed to be clearing cap space.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vikes were built through the draft, The core of their team were draft choices.

The Saints didn't pick up many free agents this year either. Brees was a free agent a few years ago.

Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Scott Hutchinson, Darren Sharper, Jonathan Vilma, Scott Fujita, Jeremy Shockey, Jared Allen, Pat Williams

Basically, every good player on both teams except Reggie Bush and Adrian Peterson were FA Aquisitions.

.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shanahan has been hired and fired by only two franchises (one twice). Incoming complete history...

As a head coach. But he's been in the legue since the 84 and was with the Broncos, Raiders and 49ers as either a head coach or an asisstant coach.

Post Elway... The Broncos started three separate quarterbacks (and vilified two of them), and had four different defensive coordinators. Over the NINE seasons after Elway retired, the Broncos won ONE AFC West title and ONE playoff game. There was one constant throughout that time period, Mike Shanahan.

From '95 to '08 he won two Super Bowls with Elway and managed to be in playoff contention every year even with guys like Brian Griese, Jake the Snake, and Jay Cutler. He's squeezed more production out of those three than anyone else has been able to before or since.

Shanahan won only one playoff game in his nine years coaching post Elway. That's not squeezing production out of his players. Worst the guys you are claiming were not very talented, who Shanahan "milked production from" were guys Shanahan brought in. He was their talent guy!!

Now you can argue he's a better coach than a talent guy; bu that doesn't explain why we are hiring him as a talent guy!

Denver's defense fell apart the last few seasons and Shanahan got the boot despite still having a terrific offense. Supposedly his refusal to fire Bob Slowik (then d. coordinator) is what ultimately led Bowlen to push him out.

Shanahan had 4 different defensive coordinators in the nine years post Elway. Shanahan picked those D coaches and he picked their talent. 4 different defensive coordinators who all sucked and Shanahan was the only common denominator... Now he's assembling a coaching staff for our team and you think that makes us on the right track?

Well at least we might have a decent offense.

Shanahan has a .550 head coaching record without Elway and was .616 overall in Denver. To compare, Joe Gibbs' career record in Washington was .621.

Shanahan had a .598 career head coaching record, including the two super bowl wins with Elway. Gibs winning percentage was over .800 his first time around and only falls to .616 if you count his four year second run which had two loosing seasons.. ( two playoff teams too.. )

Shanahan is no Joe Gibbs. That dog doesn't hunt.

Part of the allure of bringing in Mike is also the possibility of his son Kyle coming in as coordinator. Kyle is younger than McDaniels and is currently the Texans offensive coordinator under Gary Kubiak. The Texans have one of the best offenses in the league this year.

Texans have the #7 Offense this year 2009.

#2 Passing Game.

#31 in Rushing Game

In 2008 they were #3 Offense.

#4 Passing

#13 Rushing.

The financial situation was also very messy. The Glazers, who own the franchise, began the rather expensive (close to $1 billion, I believe) process of acquiring Manchester United in 2003 and really clamped down on spending. Allen's primary job down there from day one seemed to be clearing cap space.

Ok, that's reasonable. Problem is that's his only GM experience. You have a reasonable excuse for why he sucked. It's just not much of a resume to say why he should be GM of our team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Scott Hutchinson, Darren Sharper, Jonathan Vilma, Scott Fujita, Jeremy Shockey, Jared Allen, Pat Williams

Basically, every good player on both teams except Reggie Bush and Adrian Peterson were FA Aquisitions.

.....

You've named 10 guys out of 130 who were free agents on both teams.

Do you have any stats on the % of starters on the Vikes or Saits who were Free agents?

I'll bet you a dollar its less than half the percentage of starters on the Skins who were free agents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a head coach. But he's been in the legue since the 84 and was with the Broncos, Raiders and 49ers as either a head coach or an asisstant coach.

Nothing I said was incorrect. He was fired as a head coach twice in 16 years on the job and once as a coordinator due to reasons that were not performance-related. Every other time he has changed positions during his career has been through re-hiring and inevitable promotion.

You stated flat out that he had been fired from three or four teams.

Post Elway... The Broncos started three separate quarterbacks (and vilified two of them), and had four different defensive coordinators. Over the NINE seasons after Elway retired, the Broncos won ONE AFC West title and ONE playoff game. There was one constant throughout that time period, Mike Shanahan.

They remained relevant all nine seasons and faced heavy competition from the Raiders under Gruden, the Chiefs under Vermeil, and the Chargers under Schottenheimer and Norv. Vermeil never got it done with the Chiefs and Schottenheimer never got it done with anyone but there is absolutely no way in hell you can sit there and tell me you wouldn't want one of those guys to oversee the rebuilding of your franchise.

Shanahan won only one playoff game in his nine years coaching post Elway. That's not squeezing production out of his players. Worst the guys you are claiming were not very talented, who Shanahan "milked production from" were guys Shanahan brought in. He was their talent guy!!

What do you think the odds of drafting a Hall of Fame QB are? It requires some good scouting and a LOT of luck. Shanahan may not have been able to find another HoF QB to work with after Elway but he was at least able to find players who fit what he was trying to do within reason.

Not many coaches/GMs are able to do that consistently.

Shanahan had 4 different defensive coordinators in the nine years post Elway. Shanahan picked the D coaches and he picked the talent. 4 different defensive coordinators who all sucked and Shanahan was the only common denominator...

You're absolutely right. His choices on defense are a major concern and why I am only keen on defending his (good) offensive track record. In various Stadium threads I have expressed reservations and doubts about Slowik.

Nine years post Elway.... 1 playoff victory... Unless we are planning on drafting Elway, I think Shanahan is not the guy for us.

Almost every struggling team is planning on drafting the next Elway, Montana, Brady, or Manning. Again, the odds are slim and if you don't find the next superstar the best you can hope for is a player who is at least workable.

Shanahan had a .598 career head coaching record, including the two super bowl wins with Elway. Gibs winning percentage was over .800 his first time around and only falls to .616 if you count his four year second run which had two loosing seasons.. ( two playoff teams too.. )

Shanahan is no Joe Gibbs.

A fair point... but Gibbs was only .674 before his second stint. He also had the benefit of coaching before the salary cap came into play.

Shanahan is to Denver what Joe Gibbs is to us. Fortunately for us, the Skins have been the better franchise historically and Gibbs has a lead in Super Bowls won.

Texans have the #7 Offense this year 2009.

#2 Passing Game.

#31 in Rushing Game

In 2008 they were #3 Offense.

#4 Passing

#13 Rushing.

And?

It seems to me like you need to temper your expectations a little bit. Shanahan is the best available established head coach. You obviously don't like him but the reality is that we could do a lot worse.

Ok, that's reasonable. Problem is that's his only GM experience. You have a reasonable excuse for why he sucked. It's just not much of a resume to say why he should be GM of our team.

He won the NFL Executive of the Year award with the Raiders in 2002. At least he has some credentials unlike the guy he's replacing. I can live with baby steps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll bet you a dollar its less than half the percentage of starters on the Skins who were free agents.

You would win that bet. The Vikings and Saints have done a great job of building through the draft, they have simply had the great fortune of being able to sign established Pro-Bowl/HoF caliber QBs.

The Broncos revamped defense (#3 in yards allowed and #6 in points allowed this season) is the only successful unit I can think of that has been built almost entirely through free agency. They have 6 starters who were signed as free agents in this past offseason. DJ Williams and Elvis Dumervil are the only starters the Broncos have drafted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...