DieselPwr44 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Hey, if you let me cheat at ANYTHING, I bet I'll do well...Thanks for having such a good moral compass. :thumbsup: So was Joe Gibbs cheating in the 80's when they "made up" injuries and illnesses so they could stash players on IR?? Everybody that's competitive and tries to win "pushes the envelope". Be real for once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Hey, if you let me cheat at ANYTHING, I bet I'll do well...Thanks for having such a good moral compass. :thumbsup: Morality is concerned with how we treat people, not about following NFL rules. It isn't a moral issue. Is the WR who gets away with pushing off immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 So was Joe Gibbs cheating in the 80's when they "made up" injuries and illnesses so they could stash players on IR??Everybody that's competitive and tries to win "pushes the envelope". Be real for once? Stashing players vs. knowing oppositions' plays? You think that's a valid comparison of moral values? Please. Again, if you know what the opponent is going to do, you have an overwhelming advantage, as evidenced by Bill's record. This isn't hard to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Morality is concerned with how we treat people, not about following NFL rules. It isn't a moral issue.Is the WR who gets away with pushing off immoral? Okay, cheating isn't a moral issue? :doh: Come join me at the old folks home...we can gum a Lorna Doone together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Stashing players vs. knowing oppositions' plays?You think that's a valid comparison of moral values? Please. Again, if you know what the opponent is going to do, you have an overwhelming advantage, as evidenced by Bill's record. This isn't hard to follow. So Buges and Breaux admitting that in the past they tried stealing signs from the opposition is not "cheating"?? George Allen opening the service doors when the opposing team used to kick is not "cheating"? Or having spies at the opposition practice..not cheating?? Take the homer glasses off Bo-Peep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Okay, cheating isn't a moral issue? Cheating can be a moral issue in some contexts, but not in others -- in the context of NFL football, Belichick's act was not. You ducked my question, so I'll repeat it. Is the WR who pushes off immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 So Buges and Breaux admitting that in the past they tried stealing signs from the opposition is not "cheating"??George Allen opening the service doors when the opposing team used to kick is not "cheating". Or having spies at the opposition practice..not cheating?? Take the homer glasses off Bo-Peep. It's all cheating. There's no condoning it. The Patriots, however, had a highly developed, technically efficient means for cheating that was specifically ruled out by the NFL. It didn't take long for coaches who left his team to publicly rat him out, because they knew it was over-the-top. Seriously, if the Skins came into tomorrow's game knowing all of Atlanta's plays right before they are called, even WE would probably win. What NE did was on par with the Cubs in the early 1900's...and this guy is STILL coaching in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 2) The Redskins DO have a a handful of very good players, more than most every team in that mediocre middle third I disagree with this statement. I think we've got three to four players on our team you could consider elite to excellent starters: Haynesworth, Fletcher, Cooley, and Portis. Maybe you could add Andre Carter to that list. And Portis and Fletcher are solidly on the downslope of their careers. Then I think we have we have a few younger players that would be desirable to other teams right now: Orakpo and Landry. Just about every other team in the league can say the same about their roster and many more teams can sport a far more talented roster with talented depth at key position groups. The rest of our team is either young draft picks on the roster from potential and guys we think are excellent through the slanted perspective of our fanhood. The fact of the matter is that this is not a very talented team. 4 or 5 years ago was a slightly different story. But this is a team where you are either very young or very old with no veteran core. 3) Joe Gibbs did a better job with the SnyderSkins than we will probably ever realize.Except Joe Gibbs built most of this team, especially the starters. I get it, it's the standard line to pardon the players, revere Gibbs, and pile it all on Snyder and Cerrato. They aren't likeable guys, whereas the players mostly are and Gibbs definitely is. But if you want to really sling the blame around they are a part of it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Cheating can be a moral issue in some contexts, but not in others -- in the context of NFL football, Belichick's act was not.You ducked my question, so I'll repeat it. Is the WR who pushes off immoral? Immoral? Let's not get into religious philosophy, shall we? Shades of grey aren't worth discussing on a football forum. For me, severity of breaking morals is something we deal with daily. What Belichcick did tarnished the sport. Pushing off isn't going to tarnish the sport...it's going to draw a flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 What NE did was on par with the Cubs in the early 1900's...and this guy is STILL coaching in the NFL. They went 11-5 last year without all that knowledge and are doing well this season without that knowledge. Try again. And this whole "The Redskins are squeaky clean" and the rest of the league isn't is garbage. I guess when Joe and George "pushed the envelope" and won, it was OK?? Anybody else tries it it's bad?? Are you really this naive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 They went 11-5 last year without all that knowledge and are doing well this season without that knowledge.Try again. And this whole "The Redskins are squeaky clean" and the rest of the league isn't is garbage. I guess when Joe and George "pushed the envelope" and won, it was OK?? Anybody else tries it it's bad?? Are you really this naive? When did I say the Skins were squeaky clean? Please, if we have a debate don't put words in my mouth. If you want to discuss degree of cleanliness, then yes, the Patriots were the dirtiest of all time in the NFL. There's proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Belichick for GM? I know this is a joke, but if he ever wanted a new challenge, I would love to have him in the same role that Parcells occupies in Miami. Imagine BB formulating the football operations direction and philosophy?? I think that's something he'd be very, very good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Immoral? Let's not get into religious philosophy, shall we? Morality has nothing to do with religion -- and you raised the topic. What Belichcick did tarnished the sport. No, it didn't. Players try to cheat. Coaches try to cheat. Pushing off isn't going to tarnish the sport...it's going to draw a flag. And, Belichick's act didn't tarnish the sport. Most of us knew that teams try to steal signs just as they do in Baseball. Belichick's act drew a fine. Pushing off will draw a flag when the WR is caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I know this is a joke, but if he ever wanted a new challenge, I would love to have him in the same role that Parcells occupies in Miami. Imagine BB formulating the football operations direction and philosophy?? I think that's something he'd be very, very good at. He's doing that right now in NE. He runs the whole show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 When did I say the Skins were squeaky clean? Weren't you implying that the Skins never cheat?? That's what it seemed like. If you want to discuss degree of cleanliness, then yes, the Patriots were the dirtiest of all time in the NFL. I don't think it made that much of a difference in their success,imo, and is way overblown. But with that said, they "pushed the envelope" to the point that they found the line, crossed it and got busted. Now they no longer have that info, yet they're still a success. Tell us why? Because you're implying that their success stems from the video tape and that's just not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 He's doing that right now in NE. He runs the whole show. You're right...but what's the challenge in doing that in New England?? Come fix a dysfunctional front office in DC and further stamp your ticket in Canton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 ITT: A bunch of people butthurt making excuses for Daniel Snyder's failure when a real football guy tells it like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I just hope our next head coach can take a cerebral approach to football similar to Belichick. It seems that a lot of coaches get caught up in forcing a team to do things their way and forcing players into their scheme and their philosophy whether they have the personnel for that philosophy or not. IMO, instead of a coach installing a certain style of offense, just for the sake of installing that style, the more successful coaches take the good players that they have and use them to their full potential in whatever style of play suits them. I feel like Zorn is forcing the WCO offense on our group even though our QB and other players aren't suited for that type of style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Morality has nothing to do with religion -- and you raised the topic. It depends on where one is coming from... No, it didn't. Players try to cheat. Coaches try to cheat. And, Belichick's act didn't tarnish the sport. Most of us knew that teams try to steal signs just as they do in Baseball. Belichick's act drew a fine. Pushing off will draw a flag when the WR is caught. Please, Oldfan, you look silly when you try to defend what Belichick did. You do agree with me that it was wrong, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I just hope our next head coach can take a cerebral approach to football similar to Belichick... I couldn't agree more. That's what so attractive about McDaniels (and I was yelling for him after 2007). I want our next coach and QB to be cut from that cloth. I think football smarts can make up for a lot of physical deficiencies at the QB position. The ability to come the huddle, read a defense, and get into the correct play to (not avoid a negative play and just gain 1 yard) exploit and attack the defense is a huge advantage. I believe we need a cerebral head coach and QB (and a re-dedication to building the team correctly and for the long term) and we'll be perennial contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Please, Oldfan, you look silly when you try to defend what Belichick did. In my opinion, you look self-righteous and overly critical in trying to degrade the man's accomplishments. You do agree with me that it was wrong, don't you? Wrong -- as in a mistake -- of course. Wrong -- as in immoral -- no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 "Cole: Jimmy Johnson once said, if you don’t take too many risks, you can win nine or 10 games a year." Joe Gibbs 2.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 In my opinion, you look self-righteous and overly critical in trying to degrade the man's accomplishments. Oh, I'm not degrading his ability to cheat at all...:rotflmao: Wrong -- as in a mistake -- of course. Wrong -- as in immoral -- no. Okie dokie...I think I know enough about you. I'll be sure to keep my hand on my wallet should I ever meet you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Weren't you implying that the Skins never cheat?? That's what it seemed like. No...no I wasn't. I said cheating should never be condoned. I don't think it made that much of a difference in their success,imo, and is way overblown. But with that said, they "pushed the envelope" to the point that they found the line, crossed it and got busted. Now they no longer have that info, yet they're still a success. Tell us why? Because you're implying that their success stems from the video tape and that's just not true. Well, having Brady does help things.... But, if that cheating they did didn't help them, then why did they do it? I think the answer is obvious. It's still the biggest blot in the NFL's history...and, no one should forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Okie dokie...I think I know enough about you. I'll be sure to keep my hand on my wallet should I ever meet you. But we're talking about within the context of a game...no one thinks BB would try to kill someone or steal from them in order to get ahead in life. How is this any different from stealing signs in baseball, scuffing a ball, using too much pine tar, etc.? How is it any different than a player in football using too much stick-um, etc.? This is gamesmanship. Admittedly what BB did was much more premeditated, planned, and elaborate. But, as OF said, it's a mistake. Something he shouldn't have done, but he did. Also, probably something that many teams attempt to do in some capacity. I'll put it this way, if all teams were moral enough not to steal signs then no one would cover their mouths, have two people relaying signals, etc. to protect the privacy of their own signals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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