The Hill: Senators turn back ID requirement for immigrant healthcare

[SnyderShrugged]

So, your point is that people can fake non-photo id's, and so do crack down on fraud we must require photo id. Requiring photo ID will somehow stop all the fraud in the system.

C'mon.... its really difficult to fake a driver's license these days.

This is total bluster.

uhhhh, No.

Seems as though the bluster is all coming from the idiotic point of view that folks shouldnt have to prove their ID when wanting taxpayer funded freebies.

I'm continually amazed by the nonsense from the left on such a simple and common sense issue.

[Larry]

Just out of curiosity, anybody in this three-page thread know how to complete the sentence

The proposed amendment would have required photo ID in order to __________

I dunno, but I think it might help simplify the argument.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

uhhhh, No.

Seems as though the bluster is all coming from the idiotic point of view that folks shouldnt have to prove their ID when wanting taxpayer funded freebies.

I'm continually amazed by the nonsense from the left on such a simple and common sense issue.

See, no one is saying the second sentence there. No one is saying that folks shouldn't have to prove their id. The act already requires name and social security numbers, among other things, you're getting in a tizzy about photo ID.

Its total politics, which is a synonym for bull****.

[twa]

What they need is to utilize verification programs(SAVE ect) which are already in place for many programs,that go beyond simply photo ID or SS cards.

[Baculus]

Dude did you seriously try to say that Mexico is not a third world country...Don't even get me started on the American's comment...

While Mexico is officially a "third-world" nation, it is actually has a large economy and many developed areas. It certainly has some of the poverty of other third-world nations, but it simply isn't a poor barrio as it has been suggested in this thread. And it's health system is as bad as claimed, either -- did you even read any of my links?

And what "American's comment"? If you have something to say, then say it. Jut don't make some useless drive-by comment with further explanation.

[Baculus]

uhhhh, No.

Seems as though the bluster is all coming from the idiotic point of view that folks shouldnt have to prove their ID when wanting taxpayer funded freebies.

I'm continually amazed by the nonsense from the left on such a simple and common sense issue.

Compared to the nonsense we have heard from the Right, this is a minor issue that we can resolve. We cannot resolve the claim from the Right that "this is a Commi-Nazi power grab!" and "they want to unplug grandma!"

It sure would be nice if you would have called that stuff "nonsense." As it is, the right-wing opposes the public option in the first place -- the I.D. issue is simply another point of attack for them. Even if the I.D. bill is reinstated, they will still oppose it.

[SnyderShrugged]

Compared to the nonsense we have heard from the Right, this is a minor issue that we can resolve. We cannot resolve the claim from the Right that "this is a Commi-Nazi power grab!" and "they want to unplug grandma!"

It sure would be nice if you would have called that stuff "nonsense." As it is, the right-wing opposes the public option in the first place -- the I.D. issue is simply another point of attack for them. Even if the I.D. bill is reinstated, they will still oppose it.

I think many on the "real" right did call the "unplug grandma" stuff nonsense too.

Just because there is idiocy on the other side two, doesnt justify the idocy around rejecting a photo ID ammendment.

It wouldnt be a so called "point of attack" if the Dems had not been idots and rejected a very simple and common sense thing.

[SnyderShrugged]

See, no one is saying the second sentence there. No one is saying that folks shouldn't have to prove their id. The act already requires name and social security numbers, among other things, you're getting in a tizzy about photo ID.

Its total politics, which is a synonym for bull****.

It's very, very simple.

You cant "prove" ID without the photo (at least cheaply)

[Tulane Skins Fan]

It's very, very simple.

You cant "prove" ID without the photo (at least cheaply)

False. Just false.

[SnyderShrugged]

False. Just false.

OK. lets explore this, I'm willing to be open minded if you are.

Lets say I have obtained a copy of documents of someone who is of the same approximate age as me. (SS card, etc).

What stops me from filing for benefits under your name using these documents. In short, I'm pretending to be them.

[Baculus]

I think many on the "real" right did call the "unplug grandma" stuff nonsense too.

Hmm -- too bad I cannot think of any that did.

Just because there is idiocy on the other side two, doesnt justify the idocy around rejecting a photo ID ammendment.

I would like to hear the reasoning behind the rejectiion of the bill before I make my final determination. Do we have the exact text for this bill?

Also, let's look at a related issue -- I.D. requirement for Medicaid.

http://www1.nmha.org/shcr/community_based/medicaid_citizenship.cfm

It wouldnt be a so called "point of attack" if the Dems had not been idots and rejected a very simple and common sense thing.

We don't know it was rejected, so using "idiot" seems a bit strong. As it is, we've been dealing with idiocy every since this health care debate started, as exemplified by the language by those who reject reform.

I noticed you never called any of these anti-reformers "idiots," but you are now using that term over this I.D. issue? Of course you work in the insurance field, so your view isn't exactly neutral.

BTW, do you need a proof of citizenship -- an I.D. -- to buy insurance from your employer?

[SnyderShrugged]

Hmm -- too bad I cannot think of any that did.

I would like to hear the reasoning behind the rejectiion of the bill before I make my final determination. Do we have the exact text for this bill?

Also, let's look at a related issue -- I.D. requirement for Medicaid.

http://www1.nmha.org/shcr/community_based/medicaid_citizenship.cfm

We don't know it was rejected, so using "idiot" seems a bit strong. As it is, we've been dealing with idiocy every since this health care debate started, as exemplified by the language by those who reject reform.

I noticed you never called any of these anti-reformers "idiots," but you are now using that term over this I.D. issue? Of course you work in the insurance field, so your view isn't exactly neutral.

BTW, do you need a proof of citizenship -- an I.D. -- to buy insurance from your employer?

It's a moot point since I had to provide numerous forms of ID, including picture form, to be employed in the first place.

I've certainly called some of the anti-reformers idots, but this is the first time I've called any pro-reformers idots too.

because, well...rejecting a small requirement of photo id is exactly that. IDIOTIC

edit: also, in terms of medicaid ID requirements. Maybe there is a very good reason that medicare and medicaid fraud ranks the highest in 2009 instances?

http://www.insurancefraud.org/stats.htm

(see graph halfway down page)

more from link:

Medicare Fraud

Medicare’s annual anti-fraud budget is $465 billion. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Medicare and Medicaid made an estimated $23.7 billion in improper payments in 2007. These included $10.8 billion for Medicare and $12.9 billion for Medicaid. Medicare’s fee-for-service reduced its error rate from 4.4 percent to 3.9 percent. (U.S. Office of Management and Budget, 2008)

Medicare and Medicaid lose an estimated $60 billion or more annually to fraud, including $2.5 billion in South Florida. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Every $1 spent on Medicare fraud prevention would stop $10 in fraud. (U.S.Department of Health and Human Services) (Miami Herald)

Medicare spends less than 0.2 cents of every $1 of its $456 billion annual budget combating fraud, waste and abuse. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Medicare paid dead physicians 478,500 claims totaling up to $92 million from 2000 to 2007. These claims included 16,548 to 18,240 deceased physicians. (U.S. Senate Permanent Committee on Investigations, 2008)

Nearly one of three claims (29 percent) Medicare paid for durable medical equipment was erroneous in FY 2006. (Inspector General report, Department of Health and Human Services, August 2008)

Medicare and private health insurers pay up to $16 billion a year for needless imaging tests ordered by doctors. (American College of Radiology, 2004)

Other Medicare Stats

Medicare paid more than $1 billion in questionable claims for 18 categories of medical supplies for patients that don’t appear to need. The study covered claims between January 2001 and December 2006. The claims included walkers for patients with purported sinus congestion, paraplegia or shoulder injuries. Hundreds of thousands of claims were made for diabetes-related glucose test strips for patients with purported breathing problems, bubonic plague, leprosy or sexual impotence. (U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, 2008)

Medicaid Fraud

The 50 state Medicaid fraud control units obtained a collective 1,205 convictions, and claimed total recoveries of more than $1.1 billion in court-ordered restitution, fines, civil settlements, and penalties in FY 2007. (annual report, Office of Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services)

Of the 3,308 persons and entities excluded from participation in Medicare, Medicaid and other federal health care programs in FY 2007, 805 were based on referrals made by state Medicaid fraud control units. (ibid)

The number of successful civil actions totaled 607. (ibid)

More than 61 percent of medical providers (4,319 total) banned from state Medicaid programs in 2004 and 2005 didn’t show up in the federal database of state-banned providers. This makes it easier for banned providers to set up shop in other states and continue doing business with federal health-insurance programs. (Office of Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2008)

[SnyderShrugged]

OK. lets explore this, I'm willing to be open minded if you are.

Lets say I have obtained a copy of documents of someone who is of the same approximate age as me. (SS card, etc).

What stops me from filing for benefits under your name using these documents. In short, I'm pretending to be them.

I'd still like to explore this post if that's OK?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

OK. lets explore this, I'm willing to be open minded if you are.

Lets say I have obtained a copy of documents of someone who is of the same approximate age as me. (SS card, etc).

What stops me from filing for benefits under your name using these documents. In short, I'm pretending to be them.

The same thing that stops you from getting a fake photo ID. Its illegal.

Its not like requiring a photo ID will end all fraud in the system.

Also, your potentially advocating for more waste by requiring legal immigrants who pay for health care to provide more forms of ID than are necessary to prove that they are entitled to the health care. Bigger bureaucray, bigger waste.

[SnyderShrugged]

The same thing that stops you from getting a fake photo ID. Its illegal.

Its not like requiring a photo ID will end all fraud in the system.

Also, your potentially advocating for more waste by requiring legal immigrants who pay for health care to provide more forms of ID than are necessary to prove that they are entitled to the health care. Bigger bureaucray, bigger waste.

This argument really makes no sense to me.

Requireing a photo ID will allow whomever approves the benefits to see if they are who they are claiming to be to a dramatically higher degree than without. its not that hard to understand.

I am advocating that legal immigrants, alomg with all American citizens who want taxpayer funded benefits to follow the same rules, so there is no extra expense.

Are you honestly trying to say that there wouldn't be more potential for fraud without a photo ID requirement? If so, please provide something that would support that strange point.

[NavyDave]

Joe Wilson interrupted the President of the United States during a joint session of congress to call him a liar.

Obama could have been saying the moon was made of Green cheese, and Joe Wilson would still not be in the right.....

Just like the liberal congressman from Florida calling Republican murderers for not agreeing to the public option and not needing to apologize according to pelosi.

[NavyDave]

The GOP needs to sneak in mllions of conservative blacks from Africa and Eastern European professionals that are self sufficient to balance the illegal alien voting bloc.

[Baculus]

Just like the liberal congressman from Florida calling Republican murderers for not agreeing to the public option and not needing to apologize according to pelosi.

Republicans have been doing that for months and have yet to feel a single impulse to apologize for it. Why would you expect this Florida Democrat to do so?

[Baculus]

The GOP needs to sneak in mllions of conservative blacks from Africa and Eastern European professionals that are self sufficient to balance the illegal alien voting bloc.

Yeah, because the GOP doesn't do much to attract many blacks and other American minorities to vote for them, do they?

Maybe they party needs to look at its policies and outcomes to figure out what they're doing wrong.

[Baculus]

It's a moot point since I had to provide numerous forms of ID, including picture form, to be employed in the first place.

I've certainly called some of the anti-reformers idots, but this is the first time I've called any pro-reformers idots too.

because, well...rejecting a small requirement of photo id is exactly that. IDIOTIC

I just wanted to reiterate this point -- I am fine with an I.D. requirement if it is along the lines of other federal programs. We still, though, have to examine the bill's text to make a final conclusion to why it was rejected.

edit: also, in terms of medicaid ID requirements. Maybe there is a very good reason that medicare and medicaid fraud ranks the highest in 2009 instances?

http://www.insurancefraud.org/stats.htm

(see graph halfway down page)

more from link:

Medicare Fraud

Medicare’s annual anti-fraud budget is $465 billion. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Medicare and Medicaid made an estimated $23.7 billion in improper payments in 2007. These included $10.8 billion for Medicare and $12.9 billion for Medicaid. Medicare’s fee-for-service reduced its error rate from 4.4 percent to 3.9 percent. (U.S. Office of Management and Budget, 2008)

Medicare and Medicaid lose an estimated $60 billion or more annually to fraud, including $2.5 billion in South Florida. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Every $1 spent on Medicare fraud prevention would stop $10 in fraud. (U.S.Department of Health and Human Services) (Miami Herald)

Medicare spends less than 0.2 cents of every $1 of its $456 billion annual budget combating fraud, waste and abuse. (Miami Herald, August 11, 2008)

Medicare paid dead physicians 478,500 claims totaling up to $92 million from 2000 to 2007. These claims included 16,548 to 18,240 deceased physicians. (U.S. Senate Permanent Committee on Investigations, 2008)

Nearly one of three claims (29 percent) Medicare paid for durable medical equipment was erroneous in FY 2006. (Inspector General report, Department of Health and Human Services, August 2008)

Medicare and private health insurers pay up to $16 billion a year for needless imaging tests ordered by doctors. (American College of Radiology, 2004)

If you noticed, none of this had to deal with individual fraud (unless I missed something). MOST Medicare and Medicaid fraud are from private health care practitioners or providers.

Medicare paid more than $1 billion in questionable claims for 18 categories of medical supplies for patients that don’t appear to need. The study covered claims between January 2001 and December 2006. The claims included walkers for patients with purported sinus congestion, paraplegia or shoulder injuries. Hundreds of thousands of claims were made for diabetes-related glucose test strips for patients with purported breathing problems, bubonic plague, leprosy or sexual impotence. (U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, 2008)

But what is really at the heart of the issue? The physicians and businesses who are making these false claims and ripping off the tax payers. Individuals -- illegals -- by and large cannot make these claims.

Medicaid Fraud

The 50 state Medicaid fraud control units obtained a collective 1,205 convictions, and claimed total recoveries of more than $1.1 billion in court-ordered restitution, fines, civil settlements, and penalties in FY 2007. (annual report, Office of Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services)

Of the 3,308 persons and entities excluded from participation in Medicare, Medicaid and other federal health care programs in FY 2007, 805 were based on referrals made by state Medicaid fraud control units. (ibid)

The number of successful civil actions totaled 607. (ibid)

The perpetrators of the fraud need to be investigated, but that does not mean that the system itself is the sole source of the problem.

Consider this -- I have said this point time and time again. Donald Rumsfeld, on Sept 10th 2001, said that the DOD could not track for TRILLIONS of its own spending. All told, I have heard from two to three trillion of this spending cannot be account for, which is enough funds to pay for decades of health care.

Where is the outrage over this issue? Where are the neo-Tea Party rage about this?This makes the Medicare/Medicaid fraud into chump change, if you ask me. The only person who talks about this stuff from the GOP side of the aisle is Ron Paul. Otherwise, if you listened to right-wingers, you would never guess that this took place because they support Big Military spending.

I think we definitely need to clean up Medicare and Medicaid fraud, but if you REALLY want to clean up a possible large source of fraud, then we have to look at the Iron Triangle relationships.

[Wrong Direction]

Sorry, I'm just seeing this. Didn't mean to avoid the back and forth.

And what would you suggest as an alternative? Turning down care for those in need?

"Sorry, you're illegal -- we cannot save your life or the lives of your family." Was that representative from FL correct in his recent words?

Re-read what I said...which was that politicians have expanded the definition of emergency to very dubious, non-emergency care. At no point did I say that we shouldn't cover emergency care to save lives.

Illegals can already buy health insurance from private insurers.

It is much better that illegals have some sort of insurance than not, even if their status as non-citizens or legal workers is questionable.

Why? You say below that Mexico's system is better? Why give them more incentive to stay here illegally? It's not like they don't have access to care at home.

You're reflecting an assumption here, not a fact. The fact is that it's worse for taxpayers and members of plans including illegals to allow them to enroll because it will raise federal outlays and insurance premiums and it will excaserbate the already uncontrolled problem of illegal immigration.

That may be true. But here is the issue: It is often said that self-motivation and self-interest should be a prime driving force behind an individual's effort. Well, that just so happens to be the prime motivating force for many of these illegals.

I guess supposed conservative values do not apply to those deemed as undesirable.

Well, this was a ridiculous argument. Where in conservative literature does it say that we advocate breaking the law, or undermining our national sovereignty by allowing any foreigner to participate in our national healthcare programs?

I never said I blamed immigrants for wanting to come here. To the contrary, I totally understand. I also understand the importance of the rule of law, and the fact that our immigration laws are currently meaningless and costing this country a lot of money in a time (and future) of huge budget deficits.

Many immigrants are from Central America and not just Mexico. It is a mistake to lump them all together. Mexicans, after all, are North Americans, just like us and our northern Canadian cousins.

I can see how you would read that to say that I'm lumping them together, but that was not my intention. I was specifically talking about the Mexican healthcare system, which is not nearly as rosy as you indicate. Michael Moore makes Cuba's system look good too.

I know one thing, Nancy Pelosi isn't forgoing American care to go have surgery in Mexico or Cuba, and the average Mexican in most Mexican towns do not have access to state of the art healthcare.

[Wrong Direction]

Consider this -- I have said this point time and time again. Donald Rumsfeld, on Sept 10th 2001, said that the DOD could not track for TRILLIONS of its own spending. All told, I have heard from two to three trillion of this spending cannot be account for, which is enough funds to pay for decades of health care.

Where is the outrage over this issue? Where are the neo-Tea Party rage about this?This makes the Medicare/Medicaid fraud into chump change, if you ask me. The only person who talks about this stuff from the GOP side of the aisle is Ron Paul. Otherwise, if you listened to right-wingers, you would never guess that this took place because they support Big Military spending.

For the record, I know it's off topic but this is a fair point. It illustrates the importance of getting your news from different sources. I wish more people would do that.

I'd also bet that you won't find any conservative non-politician who reads allegations like this and doesn't want them investigated.

[Larry]

OK. lets explore this, I'm willing to be open minded if you are.

Lets say I have obtained a copy of documents of someone who is of the same approximate age as me. (SS card, etc).

What stops me from filing for benefits under your name using these documents. In short, I'm pretending to be them.

The same thing that stops you from going down to DMV with those documents and saying "I lost my wallet. I need a new ID"?

[SnyderShrugged]

The same thing that stops you from going down to DMV with those documents and saying "I lost my wallet. I need a new ID"?

My picture is on file with the DMV. They simply look it up and compare it with me in front of them in order to replace my photo ID.

I just moved to a new state. I couldnt get the new state dl uless I was able to provide the photo ID, SS card, birth cert and insurance info forst. I also had to show my photo ID to the insurance company to get insured and I even had to provide it to close my home sale.

All needed photo ID, just as it should be needed to get taxpayer funded benefits.

[Baculus]

For the record, I know it's off topic but this is a fair point. It illustrates the importance of getting your news from different sources. I wish more people would do that.

I can agree with that point.

I'd also bet that you won't find any conservative non-politician who reads allegations like this and doesn't want them investigated.

It's a shame that few conservatives, outside of some libertarian-minded folks, ever talk about this issue.