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Have a good 4th everyone!


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Have a Great 4TH Henry and to all!!!!!!!!

Football is so close I can smell it.

I'd rather see it than smell it!

HAIL TO THE REDSKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I've always wondered, how do they celebrate the Fourth in England? Does the Royal Family burn the original American Flag outside of Buckingham Palace? Do they drink gallons of tea to reclaim the shipment that was lost during the Boston Tea Party? Do they dump Sam Adams into the gutter?

These are questions that need answers.

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Happy 4th to all, congrats to Glorydays!! and please keep the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines in your thoughts as we enjoy the freedoms and comforts they provide - of which quite a significant amount are out doing just that right now, far and wide! :notworthy

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Happy 4th all. have fun....enjoy....and be sage. That way you're around to tell us all about it tomorow. :cool: Fish. Well said. Glorydays...congrats to you and the lovely bride.

For those of you who can't wait for tonight.


And why/what we are celebrating.


The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


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Originally posted by Orangeskin

I've always wondered, how do they celebrate the Fourth in England? Does the Royal Family burn the original American Flag outside of Buckingham Palace? Do they drink gallons of tea to reclaim the shipment that was lost during the Boston Tea Party? Do they dump Sam Adams into the gutter?

Curiously, we don't actually celebrate 4th of July. One day when it coincides with Tim Henman say winning Wimbledon, we might celebrate on that particular day but for no historical reason.

I thought Sam Adams played for Baltimore or is it Buffalo now. You'll have to educate me as to his historic namesake as I haven't a clue about him.

Anyway, enjoy Independence day one and all

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I think that I am late in this post. but Hey better late then never..

I hope everyone has a happy and safe 4th............ having been in afghanistan and Iraq Freedom is a wonderful thing, and America Is a utopian lifestyle compared to the others... Cherish it.........

God Bless America and those who defend her.......................

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My almost-14-year-old (she gets upset when I say she's 13) turned to me during a particularly loud and impressive part of the fireworks display last night and said, "I bet in England they call this Aww, Maannnn! Day."

Kids. ;)


All kidding aside ... love to our brothers across the pond, too ... as well as due north ... south ... everywhere. Seems to me we could use a little more "us" and a little less "them" these days.

Reading about our boys in green having a 4th of July barbecue in Saddam's palace in Tikrit yesterday, I found myself thinking about the symbolism of it all. Liberty, independence, that kind of stuff.

Interesting times. Comes into sharp focus on a day like yesterday.

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My brother and I drove down to Virginia yesterday to get fireworks. I was so disapointed. When did they change there laws regarding fireworks?

No bottle rockets or festive balls or roman candles. There was nothing that shot into the air, and they didn't even have firecrackers. The only type they had were the fountain type that sends multi colored sparks 3-6 feet into the air.:cuss:

What states sell the airborn stuff?

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Ian, if you dont mind ... always have been kind of interested in the man-on-the-boulevard feeling in your fair land about the whole July 4 thing.

And keep it clean, please. There are patriots here. :)

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Om I note firstly your kind comments about my fair land. A fair land that once held yours as part of its empire until that famous declaration made on the 4th July 1776 began a process that led to your eventual independence.

I believe and I am no American history student it took till the late 1790s for the British to be eventually kicked out. A time when Napoleon had turned the French Revolution into something far more threathening to the British than some rebellious colonists 3000 miles away. Maybe its rather dismissive of the significance of the birth of your nation but I think without the antics of Napoleon on the doorstep at home and the lack of money / incentive all round (i.e. trade continued unabashed) the British could have taken back your independence if they so chose at anytime in the first 50 years or so of your nation.

A wildly optimistic view of British strength perhaps but our Naval superiority was considerable. I believe at some point was its 1812 ? we sailed down the Hudson and destroyed the White House as a kind of 'Don't mess with us' message. The British however have always been pragmatic, the Cotton Mills of Lancashire where the Industrial Revolution started needed Cotton to function and despite some shortcomings obviously in deliveries at some point during your war of independence they never really faltered. The British thus managed to maintain a reasonable trading position whilst losing sovereignty, a bargain really.

The 4th of July in modern terms means nothing to the British. We don't get upset or hot or bothered about it. We know the date which is more than can be said for India's independence day etc etc (there are many other ex-british colonial territories as well each with its own day no doubt as well) but that's just a product of modern publicity. What I mean is if you surveyed the British man in the street, all would tell you that Independence Day was the 4th July but less than half would get 1776 as the year and outside of George Washington would not have a clue who signed it.

Finally I better put in a disclaimer about the above shambolic historical ramblings. They are my ideas and were typed up late in the evening... To reiterate, enjoy Independence Day but don't expect the British to somehow share your joy... We're 'good losers' and all that but really...

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Truth be told, the war essentially ended in October of 1781, formally in 1783 with an official peace treaty. The colonies could not have been "taken back at anytime", considering that it lasted about 6 years as it was. The British merely tired of a seemingly unwinnable war, much as we tired of Vietnam. The only way to "win" a war of that variety is to more or less destroy the population, which is not really a victory at all. The Soviet experience in Afghanistan is also an example of this.

But yes, the British government decided that the price of victory (or possible defeat, rather) was far too high given the only moderate economic importance of the colonies at that point.

Interestingly enough, the British changed their minds just 3 decades later and waged perhaps a more effective campaign against a disorganized, fledging nation. Thankfully for us, that too was unsuccessful.

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I appreciate the considered and respectful response, Ian.

No doubt, as with all historical upheavals, the broad and interwoven totality of circumstances at play during America’s reach for independence, including the antics of that certain vertically challenged but energetic gentleman from France, played an immense and ultimately unknowable role. Still – and this is not to suggest you are doing so – I wonder if anyone today believes that the Crown might have “held” the colonies through to this day, or even, for that matter, for the balance of the 19th century.

I find it difficult to imagine an alternate historical thread where England could or would have devoted the incalculable resources – both human and material – necessary, over the intervening decades, to maintain any practical level of control. The move to independence in the colonies has always seemed to me to have a certain powerful historical inevitability to it ... aided in no small manner by the geographic challenges posed to any nation trying to stem that tide.

I will concede, for the sake of discussion, that a more concerted British effort in the late 18t century may have staved off American’s birth for a matter of a few decades, but I find it hard to envision any other outcome than her eventual independence.

It just might have meant we were talking about a different circle on the calendar.

At any rate ... here’s to two strong, independent and proud nations, which happen to share an intimate past, and a bright, inter-dependant future.

Diplomacy. Gotta love it. :)

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