The Extremeskins health care town hall.

[JMS]

again, please provide the evidence that the folks at the town halls are somehow sponsored by the helath insurance companies.

Sources are Washington Post, Politico.com, Wall Street Journal, and CBS News

#228

The quotes are making the speciific claims..

1. Insurance companies are tracking town hall meetings in 30 states, creating master lists, and passing them along to protesters.
   
2. There is a group "Conservatives for Patient Rights" associated with the folks who created the John Kerry "Swift Boat" adds with millions of dollars at their disposal coordinating the demonstrations.
   
3. The group is created and funded by the insurance companies.
   
4. The groups president is a former Insurance company president who was ousted for abuse and who's company was fined more than a billion dollars for excessive billing.
   
5. The group is opennly taking credit for disrupting the meetings.
   

How is that not specific?

I have also read the insurance agency sponsored groups are posting questions for the protestors to ask, strategies for how they should conduct themselves to control the event, and how to rattle the politicians.

If its so obvious a fact, I shouldnt have had to ask this many times.

Put up or shut up.

You will note I'm reposting my response from an identical request.

[The Sisko]

As I see it, the main problem with health care in the US is not the service, that part is fine, it is the Cost. The reason that insurance has become more expensive over the years is because of the increase in Malpractice cases. Every law students knows that if they want to make big bucks, to move into malpractice.

Wrong on both counts.

http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?id=36768

This analysis of health insurance premiums was based on data collected from private and government employers with more than 200 employees for the period from 1999 to 2004 and examined premiums three to five years after tort reform was enacted, allowing for the impact of reform to filter through the system.

Key Findings:

1. Caps of noneconomic damages did not translate into lower health insurance premiums for consumers. Various types of analyses did not alter this finding.
   
2. A survey of empirical research does suggest tort reform has constrained the growth of malpractice premiums for providers but, as these authors note, these premiums are a very small component of health care costs and do not have much impact on overall costs. (emphasis added)
   
3. From research by others, it is less clear whether doctors change the way they practice medicine after tort reform, although there is evidence of some cost reductions in cardiac and obstetric care.
   

Tort reform has not led to health care cost savings for consumers. Given the strength of this finding, the authors assert legislators need to reexamine whether tort reform offers consumers any benefits.

You're also wrong on the quality issue (assuming that's what you meant when you said "service".) Fatal medical errors alone are a huge problem.

Overall, quality of care is not great even when one doesn't compare our system to other countries.

http://www.ahrq.gov/qual/nhqr08/Key.htm

Three themes from the 2008 NHQR emphasize the need to accelerate progress if the Nation is to achieve high-quality health care. These themes also reflect the challenges that still remain:

• Health care quality is suboptimal and continues to improve at a slow pace.
  
• Reporting of hospital quality is leading improvement, but patient safety is lagging.
  
• Health care quality measurement is evolving, but much work remains.
  

However, you're right that the real issue is cost. We're paying way to much for our healthcare. As costs continue to rise, American companies won't be able to remain competitive globally because they'll be competing against companies in countries that offer "socialized" healthcare.

As much as the special interests would like this issue to go away, it simply isn't going to. Sure, they may be able to kill so-called "Obamacare". However, the costs and the numbers of uninsured will continue to rise and none of the distractors like tort reform, health expenses for illegal aliens, "socialized medicine", and "death commissions" (Palin, what a moron ) will do a damn thing to stop it.

In short, we can try to transform our current system into one that keeps the best of what we have, while incorporating things shown to work in other countries, or we can wait another decade at which point the populace will likely be screaming for a completely socialized system.

[JMS]

You're also wrong on the quality issue (assuming that's what you meant when you said "service".) Fatal medical errors alone are a huge problem.

Yep, perscription drug fatalities, mistakes made in hospitals, post proceedure infections, infant mortality, or just misdiagnoses which lead to patient deaths are all metrics for quality of care.

The US doesn't measure well in any of them.

America had the best healthcare in the world back in the early 1970's. Today our healthcare just doesn't compare with other first world countries. Not in cost, value, or quality of care.

[SnyderShrugged]

Sources are Washington Post, Politico.com, Wall Street Journal, and CBS News

#228

The quotes are making the speciific claims..

1. Insurance companies are tracking town hall meetings in 30 states, creating master lists, and passing them along to protesters.
   
2. There is a group "Conservatives for Patient Rights" associated with the folks who created the John Kerry "Swift Boat" adds with millions of dollars at their disposal coordinating the demonstrations.
   
3. The group is created and funded by the insurance companies.
   
4. The groups president is a former Insurance company president who was ousted for abuse and who's company was fined more than a billion dollars for excessive billing.
   
5. The group is opennly taking credit for disrupting the meetings.
   

How is that not specific?

I have also read the insurance agency sponsored groups are posting questions for the protestors to ask, strategies for how they should conduct themselves to control the event, and how to rattle the politicians.

You will note I'm reposting my response from an identical request.

You have nothing, sorry.

1. America's health plans, accoprding to the link you provided is stationing 30 people in states where townhalls are held. It says nothing about them providing lists to fill up the towm hall meetings. More liekely to make sure they have a representative there

2. Conservatives for patients rights has zero to do with the health insurance lobby and is certainly not funded by insurance companies. Rick scott is an independent multi-millionaire and former hospital exec.

So sorry, this "evidence" is certainly not proof that health insureres are funding the protestors whatsoever.

I suggest staying away from inferences next time.

[PeterMP]

How many states have passed it? Has health care costs in those states declined?

Yes?

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/03/03/prsa0303.htm

(link was originally posted by keetsman)

I will also say that if you look at other countries (e.g. Canada and France), it is harder to sue and they have lower malpractice insurance rates.

I'm not sure that just tort reform is an issue or it has to be coupled with malpractice insurance reform, but we are charing are doctors too much in many ways (medical school costs is another issue).

Controlling those cost are necessary to increase the number of doctors, especially GPs, which must be done for any meaningful reform.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Yes?

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/03/03/prsa0303.htm

(link was originally posted by keetsman)

I will also say that if you look at other countries (e.g. Canada and France), it is harder to sue and they have lower malpractice insurance rates.

I'm not sure that just tort reform is an issue or it has to be coupled with malpractice insurance reform, but we are charing are doctors too much in many ways (medical school costs is another issue).

Controlling those cost are necessary to increase the number of doctors, especially GPs, which must be done for any meaningful reform.

Agreed that doctors are paying too much. Instead of limiting malpractice caps, why not cap malpractice insurance rates.

DC has actually implented something like that in the last year or so.... we'll see how it works.

[PeterMP]

Agreed that doctors are paying too much. Instead of limiting malpractice caps, why not cap malpractice insurance rates.

DC has actually implented something like that in the last year or so.... we'll see how it works.

Because if the insurance companies end up losing money, they'll go bankrupt and doctors won't be able to get insurance?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Because if the insurance companies end up losing money, they'll go bankrupt and doctors won't be able to get insurance?

Oh, so insurance companies need to be protected so that they don't go bankrupt, but individuals need to give up their rights to be heard by a jury of their peers?

Seriously? It was an honest answer I guess... but seriously?

Also, insurance companies enjoy humongous profit margins at the expense of these doctors, and at the same time they complain that we need tort reform.

[Baculus]

I'd like thank everyone who has responded in this thread so far. Lots of good ideas! (Though it seems to have broken down into bickering like the other health care threads. Not surprisingly!)

[Baculus]

Because if the insurance companies end up losing money, they'll go bankrupt and doctors won't be able to get insurance?

I just wanted to add my .02 on this matter.

Insurance companies usually don't want to pay a settlement, which is why every lawsuit is seen as "frivolous."

Personally, I am not ready to war to back the insurance companies over private citizens -- the little guy -- and I really don't see why anyone else would, either. Unless, of course, you work for an insurance agency.

There are plenty of causes in which malpractice suites are justified. Not to use an "appeal to emotion," but as an example, my father who died of cancer was misdiagnosed, and if his condition had been caught sooner then perhaps his death could have been avoided. My mother never sued, but I wish she would have.

[JMS]

You have nothing, sorry.

I'm your huckleberry...

1. America's health plans, accoprding to the link you provided is stationing 30 people in states where townhalls are held. It says nothing about them providing lists to fill up the towm hall meetings. More liekely to make sure they have a representative there

On Friday, July 24, a representative of Conservatives for Patients Rights--the anti-health care reform group run by disgraced hospital executive Rick Scott, in conjunction with the message men behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth--sent an email to a list serve (called the Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee) containing a spreadsheet that lists over one hundred congressional town halls from late July into September

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...g-campaign.php

Course you could also check out the website for the Conservatives for Patient Rights..

http://www.cprights.org/resources.php

Town Halls

Click here to view a list of Town Hall meetings with members of Congress along with the dates, times and locations.

View the videos from the Congressional Town Hall meetings where constituents voice their concerns on health care reform.

2. Conservatives for patients rights has zero to do with the health insurance lobby and is certainly not funded by insurance companies. Rick scott is an independent multi-millionaire and former hospital exec.

Rick Scott is a multi-millionaire scumbag who was fired by Collumbia\HCA (the largest private owner of heathcare facilities in the country) board of directors for ochestraiting overbilling medicare to the tune of billions. His company ended up paying a record 1.7 billion dollar fine too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

The effort has alarmed many Democrats and liberal health-care advocates, who are pushing back with attacks highlighting Rick Scott's, founder of a group called Conservatives for Patients' Rights, ouster as head of the Columbia/HCA health-care amid a fraud investigation in the 1990s. The firm eventually pleaded guilty to charges that it overbilled state and federal health plans, paying a record $1.7 billion in fines.

So sorry, this "evidence" is certainly not proof that health insureres are funding the protestors whatsoever.

I suggest staying away from inferences next time.

You do know you have to actually read the post to get the information out of it. You can't just lean your forehead against the monitor and dismiss the post as not being informative.

These articles show exactly what I said they show. They show insurance companies spending significant resources to organize the confrontations at the town hall meetings. Collecting national lists of events to turn out too. Sending the lists of these events to the wing nuts. And

[PeterMP]

Oh, so insurance companies need to be protected so that they don't go bankrupt, but individuals need to give up their rights to be heard by a jury of their peers?

Seriously? It was an honest answer I guess... but seriously?

Also, insurance companies enjoy humongous profit margins at the expense of these doctors, and at the same time they complain that we need tort reform.

Well, I don't know what the profit margin on medical malpractice insurance is. If you have some data on that, I'd love to see it. I wouldn't be shocked if some are making a killing. I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised if there were issues with competition in many areas and specialities with respect to malpractice insurance.

However, you've described individuals giving up a right, but suggested taking essentially the same thing from some other individual (their ability to maxmimize their profits). I'm not sure why one is more sacrosanct then the other.

In addition, if insurance companies are being stressed over medical malpractice, the system will crash.

I'm not at all sure how capping malpractice insurance cost is the solution. If there really is competition, then if the market is set, then that should be the market. I find it hard to believe that in a market with true competition, insurance companies will make a lot more than required for them to survive. If there isn't competition, fix the market so there is competition.

[PeterMP]

I just wanted to add my .02 on this matter.

Insurance companies usually don't want to pay a settlement, which is why every lawsuit is seen as "frivolous."

Personally, I am not ready to war to back the insurance companies over private citizens -- the little guy -- and I really don't see why anyone else would, either. Unless, of course, you work for an insurance agency.

There are plenty of causes in which malpractice suites are justified. Not to use an "appeal to emotion," but as an example, my father who died of cancer was misdiagnosed, and if his condition had been caught sooner then perhaps his death could have been avoided. My mother never sued, but I wish she would have.

I don't doubt there are. I will only defend insurance companies to the point that I realize their exsistance is necessary for they system to work, and I haven't seen any evidence that they are gaming the system w/ respect to malpractice insurance (I wouldn't be surprised if they are though).

I will also point out that I don't think that malpractice lawsuits are in fact a good method to ensure quality.

[Baculus]

You have nothing, sorry.

1. America's health plans, accoprding to the link you provided is stationing 30 people in states where townhalls are held. It says nothing about them providing lists to fill up the towm hall meetings. More liekely to make sure they have a representative there

Fox News, Glenn Beck, the GOP, and conservative organizations (such as FreedomWorks and Conservatives for Patient's Rights) have been listing Democratic town hall meetings. And there have been individuals posing as "common citizens" who, as it turned out, worked for an insurance lobby/corporation or the GOP.

It's also very telling that CRC Public Relations, the company that launched the Swift Boat attacks from 2004, is also involved in the anti-reform effort.

2. Conservatives for patients rights has zero to do with the health insurance lobby and is certainly not funded by insurance companies. Rick scott is an independent multi-millionaire and former hospital exec.

Not true at all. Rick Scott is an ex-hospital CEO whose organization was fined for over a billion dollars for defrauding the US government and tax payers, the largest such settlement in health care history. This man represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with the health care for-profit industry.

Are you ready to defend this guy? Is this the man you want to represent your position?

http://thinkprogress.org/who-is-rick-scott/

The man and his related organizations are deceitful, too. Take, for example, this effort to outright steal another organization's name, The Better Government Association, to push for anti-reform efforts.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-St-Louis-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m8d9-Conservatives-try-to-hijack-the-good-name-of-the-Better-Government-Association

If there is no better example of astroturfing, then look no farther then Rick Scott and any organization of which he is involved. (Including Conservatives for Patient's Rights, which has already admitted to such "astroturfing" efforts.)

So sorry, this "evidence" is certainly not proof that health insureres are funding the protestors whatsoever.

I suggest staying away from inferences next time.

The problem is that you are either 1) ignoring such "evidence," or 2) you are not looking for it at all.

It's amazing, though, how the anti-reform efforts have now become "pro-corporation," whose obfuscating and misinformation is working. After all, you don't even realize they are behind the scenes and you probably don't even realize their influences on this debate.

[Baculus]

I don't doubt there are. I will only defend insurance companies to the point that I realize their exsistance is necessary for they system to work, and I haven't seen any evidence that they are gaming the system w/ respect to malpractice insurance (I wouldn't be surprised if they are though).

I will also point out that I don't think that malpractice lawsuits are in fact a good method to ensure quality.

I am not totally convinced the health care insurers need to exist. After all, as far as I am concerned, they are simply a for-profit layer of bureaucracy between the citizen and his health provider. I would rather seen non-profit health cooperatives as opposed to a system which is designed to maximize profits over the health of the public.

[RedskinsTime]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/health-care/bal-md.healthcare11aug11,0,7651933.story

Guys, did you hear? Ben Cardin was destroyed at his townhall meeting "by invitation only." So I guess this falsifies the claim that insurance companies and right wing interest groups are running the show at the town halls?

People don't want it..

[SnyderShrugged]

I'm your huckleberry...

Course you could also check out the website for the Conservatives for Patient Rights..

Rick Scott is a multi-millionaire scumbag who was fired by Collumbia\HCA (the largest private owner of heathcare facilities in the country) board of directors for ochestraiting overbilling medicare to the tune of billions. His company ended up paying a record 1.7 billion dollar fine too.

You do know you have to actually read the post to get the information out of it. You can't just lean your forehead against the monitor and dismiss the post as not being informative.

These articles show exactly what I said they show. They show insurance companies spending significant resources to organize the confrontations at the town hall meetings. Collecting national lists of events to turn out too. Sending the lists of these events to the wing nuts. And

Rick Scott isnt a representative of America's health ins plans, as you claaimed, If you want to say that conservatives for patients rights are distributing lists, thats fine. But you claimed it was the health insurance companies. It's not.

You also tried to support your false case by claiming that since he is head of columbia HCA healthcare inc, that he is part of the insurance industry (and even representing the industry as a whole)

from therir website:

HCA is the nation's leading provider of healthcare services, composed of locally managed facilities

that include 163 hospitals and 112 outpatient centers in 20 states and England.

At its founding in 1968, Nashville-based HCA was one of the nation's first hospital companies

They arent insurance, they are health care facilities, like hospitals.

so yet again, you have failed to support your errant claim that the health insurance industry is funding "astroturf" protests.

lastly, stop before you embarrass yourself more, or at least support your silly claims against the health insurance companies.

[PeterMP]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/health-care/bal-md.healthcare11aug11,0,7651933.story

Guys, did you hear? Ben Cardin was destroyed at his townhall meeting "by invitation only." So I guess this falsifies the claim that insurance companies and right wing interest groups are running the show at the town halls?

People don't want it..

Doesn't appear to have been invitation only. It appears to have been first come first serve. One of the people there was a former GOP candidate.

People acting like idiots isn't the solution.

[JMS]

I am not totally convinced the health care insurers need to exist. After all, as far as I am concerned, they are simply a for-profit layer of bureaucracy between the citizen and his health provider. I would rather seen non-profit health cooperatives as opposed to a system which is designed to maximize profits over the health of the public.

What's important is even with all the abuses and the high prices. The insurance companies don't do their job. We pay insurance so if something happens we will have coverage. The insurance companies don't fill that requirement.

If bad things happen, they will raise your rates, drop you all together, make the plan unaffordable or set a CAP on the plan so it will only covers you for a limited amount of the bill. You are in a hospital and the doctor orders a test, the insurance company says you don't need the test; and won't pay for the test.

I was in an approved hospital, with an approved doctor, getting a pre-approved proceedure and still got hit with unapproved fees.

Unless you work for a large organization, or the federal government; You can't count on your insurance company. You can't buy peace of mind, not at any price. The folks who are content with their insurance in this country are the folks who have never had the need to use their plans for anything even mediumly important.

American health insurance is institutionalized fraud, on a massive scale...

[SnyderShrugged]

Fox News, Glenn Beck, the GOP, and conservative organizations (such as FreedomWorks and Conservatives for Patient's Rights) have been listing Democratic town hall meetings. And there have been individuals posing as "common citizens" who, as it turned out, worked for an insurance lobby/corporation or the GOP.

It's also very telling that CRC Public Relations, the company that launched the Swift Boat attacks from 2004, is also involved in the anti-reform effort.

Not true at all. Rick Scott is an ex-hospital CEO whose organization was fined for over a billion dollars for defrauding the US government and tax payers, the largest such settlement in health care history. This man represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with the health care for-profit industry.

Are you ready to defend this guy? Is this the man you want to represent your position?

http://thinkprogress.org/who-is-rick-scott/

The man and his related organizations are deceitful, too. Take, for example, this effort to outright steal another organization's name, The Better Government Association, to push for anti-reform efforts.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-St-Louis-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m8d9-Conservatives-try-to-hijack-the-good-name-of-the-Better-Government-Association

If there is no better example of astroturfing, then look no farther then Rick Scott and any organization of which he is involved. (Including Conservatives for Patient's Rights, which has already admitted to such "astroturfing" efforts.)

The problem is that you are either 1) ignoring such "evidence," or 2) you are not looking for it at all.

It's amazing, though, how the anti-reform efforts have now become "pro-corporation," whose obfuscating and misinformation is working. After all, you don't even realize they are behind the scenes and you probably don't even realize their influences on this debate.

again, nothing here indicates that health insurance companies are funding the protests. absolutely nothing.

come back when you can.

[Baculus]

Rick Scott isnt a representative of America's health ins plans, as you claaimed, If you want to say that conservatives for patients rights are distributing lists, thats fine. But you claimed it was the health insurance companies. It's not.

You also tried to support your false case by claiming that since he is head of columbia HCA healthcare inc, that he is part of the insurance industry (and even representing the industry as a whole)

from therir website:

HCA is the nation's leading provider of healthcare services, composed of locally managed facilities

that include 163 hospitals and 112 outpatient centers in 20 states and England.

At its founding in 1968, Nashville-based HCA was one of the nation's first hospital companies

They arent insurance, they are health care facilities, like hospitals.

so yet again, you have failed to support your errant claim that the health insurance industry is funding "astroturf" protests.

lastly, stop before you embarrass yourself more, or at least support your silly claims against the health insurance companies.

Rick Scott is a fraud and I have no idea why you are defending him. Have you actually researched his background? He is called the "Bernie Madoff of health care" for a reason.

http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2009/03/who-is-richard-scott-and-why-is-he-saying-these-things-about-healthcare-reform.html

[RedskinsTime]

Doesn't appear to have been invitation only. It appears to have been first come first serve. One of the people there was a former GOP candidate.

People acting like idiots isn't the solution.

http://www.examiner.com/x-9345-Baltimore-County-Republican-Examiner~y2009m7d30-Senator-Ben-Cardin-holds-town-hall-meeting-by-personal-invitation-only

[SnyderShrugged]

Rick Scott is a fraud and I have no idea why you are defending him. Have you actually researched his background?

Please show me anywhere that I "defended" Rick Scott.

I have only said, and very specifically said, he does not represent the health insurance industry.

[PeterMP]

http://www.examiner.com/x-9345-Baltimore-County-Republican-Examiner~y2009m7d30-Senator-Ben-Cardin-holds-town-hall-meeting-by-personal-invitation-only

So somewhere between the date of that article and the actual even the details got out to more people.

Are you suggesting that NOBODY that has ever contacted him isn't a Republican and wouldn't give the information to others that would go out of their way to disrupt the event?

[RedskinsTime]

So somewhere between the date of that article and the actual even the details got out to more people.

Are you suggesting that NOBODY that has ever contacted him isn't a Republican and wouldn't give the information to others that would go out of their way to disrupt the event?

Whether or not they are Republicans is irrelevant. The majority of people were heckling him and obviously don't want it. Constituents were invited, not right wing interest groups or insurance company representatives.