WT-Thom Loverro: It's up to Snyder to make the call

[Spartacus87]

If you don't think either one of those two would be a instant upgrade from Jim Zorn then you must be in the Zorn family, because anyone that understands football would agree that you take Cowher or Shanahan 100 out 100 times over Zorn.

This whole stability talk needs to end because it is a tired catch phrase that means nothing. Good coaching, management, and players win games in the NFL.

Being stable and sticking with some guy that has never proven he can do anything besides go 8-8 and have terrible clock management skills does not win games.

If you are a Redskin fan and want them to do well in the near future you would be hoping like hell that the brass of the Skins is in contact with both Cowher and Shanahan.

I want the Skins to do well in the future, but I don't want Shanahan at all.

Remind me again what he's done without Elway and Terrell Davis together?

Oh, right, let his ego get too big for his own good while making risky personnel decisions that ultimately brought the team crashing down into the same 7-9/8-8 mediocrity we're in right now ourselves.

Yeah, I really want Shanahan.

[Pounds]

I must have missed something here, but what makes Cowher so deserving of all of this wonderlust? He's a fine coach sure, but Lombardi he ain't. Yet for the past few offseasons, when it comes to coaching searches/hires, all I hear is "team * should do whatever it takes to get Bill Cowher."

He undoubtedly would never set foot in Redskins Park, being that he wants is own guys in personnel positions and the unceremonious way his mentor, Marty, was ousted. But who cares? I seem to remember many AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz Field where the favored Steelers choked. Apparently all of that gets washed away in the afterglow of a Super Bowl victory that resulted from a dubious playoff run. His successor, Mike Tomlin, is a far better coach, IMO.

[Oldfan]

Cerrato's 2008 offseason after Gibbs stepped down was one of the worst. ZERO CONTRIBUTORS. Oh, I'm sorry there WAS Chris Horton at safety.

I wish I knew your secret. You have the 2008 draft class pegged in one season. It takes me three to make those judgments.

[DieselPwr44]

I'm probably biased. I consider him a throwback. Any coach who says "Dee-fense wins championships" is automatically disqualified in my book.

I think that putting together an effective, consistent passing game is the key to winning in today's NFL. I want an innovative, offensive guy as head coach.

I don't know if Zorn is the one, but it sure isn't Bill Cowher.

That's interesting being that run first,stout defensive teams like Baltimore,Pittsburgh,NYG and Carolina all had outstanding records and are in the playoffs.

I cannot fathom how anyone(even at your age) can say that power football doesn't win in this league anymore.

That's just totally not true.

[Oldfan]

I cannot fathom how anyone(even at your age) can say that power football doesn't win in this league anymore.

That's just totally not true.

I don't appreciate the stupid crack about my age.

Forget the old "run the ball, stop the run" chant, young friend. The key to winning in today's NFL is the passing game. You need a good passing game on offense, and you need to stop it on defense.

Average yards per attempt (YPA) is the best quick and dirty way to measure a team's passing efficiency. Average yards per carry does the same for the running game. Those are the measures I used in gathering some stats on the 2007 season.

The top five passing teams in YPA won 65 games

The top five rushing teams in YPC won 44

The bottom five rushing teams won 33

The bottom five passing teams won 21

Need more? Here's a quote from the article linked below.

The NFL is a passing league and teams that come out and try to find balance with their play-calling in the first half are doomed to fail. You have to throw to score in the NFL. Check out these eye-opening stats of five playoff teams from last season:

Team, NFL rank runs 1st half, rank runs 2nd half

Seattle, 31st, 13th

GreenBay, 29th, 19th

Indianapolis, 28th, 7th

Dallas, 27th, 11th

New England, 26th, 14th

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/michael_lombardi/05/14/nfl.myths/index.html

You are several years behind the curve. The winning forumla now is to pass to get the lead and run to hold it.

[Mr. Blitz]

I must have missed something here, but what makes Cowher so deserving of all of this wonderlust? He's a fine coach sure, but Lombardi he ain't. Yet for the past few offseasons, when it comes to coaching searches/hires, all I hear is "team * should do whatever it takes to get Bill Cowher."

He undoubtedly would never set foot in Redskins Park, being that he wants is own guys in personnel positions and the unceremonious way his mentor, Marty, was ousted. But who cares? I seem to remember many AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz Field where the favored Steelers choked. Apparently all of that gets washed away in the afterglow of a Super Bowl victory that resulted from a dubious playoff run. His successor, Mike Tomlin, is a far better coach, IMO.

Pounds.... I think it is his consistency with winning even with bad QBs until Big Ben. That is what is attractive. Don't know about you but I would be excited to have the Redskins win year in and year out as opposed to our current mess. :2cents:

[DieselPwr44]

I don't appreciate the stupid crack about my age.

It wasn't a crack more than it was a statement that if you've watched football for decades, you should know better.

If you can't stop the run and run the football,your team goes nowhere. That's the way it's always been in this league and it hasn't changed.

If this is indeed a passing league,then Spurrier's offenses should have thrived right? And Marty Schottenheimer's teams would never make the playoffs on a consistent basis...right??

Look at Elway.

He had a pretty good passing offense but when did his offense become championship caliber?? When Denver finally found a "bell cow" back that could carry the team in Davis.

A famous man once said "Don't be afraid to believe what you see".

Good advice.

[Pounds]

Pounds.... I think it is his consistency with winning even with bad QBs until Big Ben. That is what is attractive. Don't know about you but I would be excited to have the Redskins win year in and year out as opposed to our current mess. :2cents:

While I totally agree with you that a little bit of consistency around these parts would be welcomed, I can't help but think that Cowher is little more than a product of his environment. I mean, winning starts at the top and the Rooneys have been fantastic in their patient approach (something that is of dwindling supply in pro sports). Cowher was given 13 seasons to get to the promise land; many other coaches would have been fired after just a few of the many collapses his team saw.

[Pounds]

You are several years behind the curve. The winning forumla now is to pass to get the lead and run to hold it.

Hasn't it always? I'm not too sure that what you have stated here is a new trend, but rather one that is tried and true (and has been for many years). Certainly the Redskins of 1983 with Theisman and Riggins and of 1991 with Rypien and Byner proved this formula true, but some eighteen years ago. While it's hardly a football maxim, I think this formula has always been, for some reason now it's en vogue to dispose this and for stats to reflect it. Clearly, changes in the rules are something to do with it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I want the Skins to do well in the future, but I don't want Shanahan at all.

Remind me again what he's done without Elway and Terrell Davis together?

Oh, right, let his ego get too big for his own good while making risky personnel decisions that ultimately brought the team crashing down into the same 7-9/8-8 mediocrity we're in right now ourselves.

Yeah, I really want Shanahan.

To play devil's advocate...he's a championship coach who just got fired (did NOT retire on top) so I'd expect him to be hungry and go wherever he coaches next with a pretty big chip on his shoulder.

Regardless of who his players were when he's won it all, he's navigated through the NFL season all the way to the SB twice in his career and he's taken his team to the playoffs many other times.

He somewhat rubs me the wrong way (from the outside looking in), but I'd be willing to let him grow on me.

I would be VERY excited about Shanahan if he were to come here.

[Oldfan]

If this is indeed a passing league,then Spurrier's offenses should have thrived right?

If it had been a sound, NFL quality passing attack it would have.

And Marty Schottenheimer's teams would never make the playoffs on a consistent basis...right??

Marty and George Allen were unsuccessful in the playoffs for the same reason: their teams couldn't handle good, well-balanced teams. Defense and a running game won't cut it in the playoffs as a general rule.

A famous man once said "Don't be afraid to believe what you see".

Good advice.

I see perennial winners like the Patriots and Colts have been for several years passing to get leads and then running to hold them. I see outstanding running teams like the Vikings and Jaguars have been for several years stuggling when they play with the big boys.

[jimster]

This is such a myth and needs to end. Snyder is not near the impulsive coach firing machine that you and the media makes him out to be.

Everyone on this board bags on Norv Turner for being one of the worst head coaches in the NFL, but you also want to rag on Snyder for firing him so early into his ownership of the team. You can't have it both ways. So by all accounts, firing Norv Turner was the right thing to do.

He fired Marty after one year to get the guy he wanted, Spurrier. Would we have been better if he stuck with Marty? Probably, but he wanted Spurrier and it's not like he fired Marty after a great season, they started 0-5 and finished 8-8, and actually played pretty average down the stretch after getting back to 5-5.

Not to mention, Marty has never won or even played in a Super Bowl. His highly talented Charger team was knocked right out of the playoffs just like all his Brown and Chief teams were. He is notorious for having the best team in the playoffs and getting beat.

As far as Spurrier goes, he didn't fire Spurrier, Spurrier quit. I think some people are under the illusion that Snyder fired Spurrier.

Then Gibbs came in and stayed until he himself retired again.

So besides the one fire of Marty after one year I have a hard understanding why Snyder is made out to be the owner that fires coaches left and right year after year.

There are now two very qualified, proven winners, at head coach available. Bill Cowher and Mike Shanahan.

If you don't think either one of those two would be a instant upgrade from Jim Zorn then you must be in the Zorn family, because anyone that understands football would agree that you take Cowher or Shanahan 100 out 100 times over Zorn.

This whole stability talk needs to end because it is a tired catch phrase that means nothing. Good coaching, management, and players win games in the NFL.

Being stable and sticking with some guy that has never proven he can do anything besides go 8-8 and have terrible clock management skills does not win games.

If you are a Redskin fan and want them to do well in the near future you would be hoping like hell that the brass of the Skins is in contact with both Cowher and Shanahan.

good job on reminding everyone of the truth as opposed to what people want to believe regarding Snyder's coaches. Also, people forget the 2 straight days Snyder and Marty met after the season to try to come to a compromise about staying on as coach.

But, the part I disagree with you on is the stability part. The reason we haven't had consistent winning seasons is due to not being able to find that right coach. Every season for the last several years the NFL has had between 8 and 12 head coaching changes, so obviously this isn't some phenomenon that only plagues this team. So, every time a new coach comes in personnel has to be changed to fit what the new coach wants to do. What made Shanahan and Cowher successful coaches is that they both were given the chance to succeed, kept the same systems, same coaching staff as much as possible.Players got more and more comfortable with what they were doing because they weren't scrapping the whole playbook every year.

Look at the Broncos. Where have they had steady success? Offense - because they kept the same system and a lot of the same players. Where did they stink? Defense. Because every year they have a new coordinator and sign a new crop of free agents that don't pan out. - lack of stability. 8-8 just like us.

Cowher and Shanahan were once unproven as well.

[Oldfan]

I would be VERY excited about Shanahan if he were to come here.

Shanny has won an average of nine games a year for the last ten years. That's one above average. Now that would be an improvement over the Redskins last ten years, but not by enough to get me excited.

He's a known quantity. He isn't likely to build us into a perennial winner.

Moreover, he doesn't have an excuse. He had full control of the Broncos football team.

[DieselPwr44]

I see perennial winners like the Patriots and Colts have been for several years passing to get leads and then running to hold them. I see outstanding running teams like the Vikings and Jaguars have been for several years stuggling when they play with the big boys.

I see power teams like last years Giants beating the supposed most prolific offense in history last year.

I see a ball control,power run team like the Pats(in early 2000) beat "The Greatest Show on Turf".

I watched as Bill Parcells and Tony Sporano return the Dolphins to a power run/ball control team and turn them from a 1-15 team to AFC East Champion.

Physical power teams have historically always beaten the finesse teams.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Shanny has won an average of nine games a year for the last ten years. That's one above average. Now that would be an improvement over the Redskins last ten years, but not by enough to get me excited.

He's a known quantity. He isn't likely to build us into a perennial winner.

Moreover, he doesn't have an excuse. He had full control of the Broncos football team.

You respond to one sentence out of my entire post?

9-7 and a decent chance to make the playoffs every year would be a positive step in the right direction.

Also, why do we only count non-Elway seasons when we talk about this coach?

[Oldfan]

DieselPwr44

You cherry-pick two games like this...

I see power teams like last years Giants beating the supposed most prolific offense in history last year.

I see a ball control,power run team like the Pats(in early 2000) beat "The Greatest Show on Turf".

..and jump to this conclusion...

Physical power teams have historically always beaten the finesse teams.

I watched as Bill Parcells and Tony Sporano return the Dolphins to a power run/ball control team and turn them from a 1-15 team to AFC East Champion.

Did you notice that the Phins were an unusually high + 17 in the turnover ratio? Don't know about you, but I think this had more to do with their success than anything else.

Further, studies suggest that high turnover ratios are unlikely to repeat the following year. So we can expect th Phins to fall back to earth in 2009 just as the Jets fell back to earth after Mangini's first season (10-6 and playoffs).

Mighty thin evidence to support your point.

[Oldfan]

You respond to one sentence out of my entire post?

That one sentence was your conclusion. The other remarks didn't interest me.

9-7 and a decent chance to make the playoffs every year would be a positive step in the right direction.

Nothing in Shanahan's background suggests that we could go beyond that one-step improvement.

Also, why do we only count non-Elway seasons when we talk about this coach?

We don't have Elway on our team and Shanahan doesn't win a whole lot without him.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That one sentence was your conclusion. The other remarks didn't interest me.

Nothing in Shanahan's background suggests that we could go beyond that one-step improvement.

We don't have Elway on our team and Shanahan doesn't win a whole lot without him.

Cherry-picking seasons to make a conclusion weakens your point.

I'd always take a championship coach if possible. That's my conclusion.

[Oldfan]

Cherry-picking seasons to make a conclusion weakens your point.

The most recent ten consecutive seasons isn't cherry-picking.

I'd always take a championship coach if possible. That's my conclusion.

Okay, we disagree.

[DieselPwr44]

DieselPwr44

You cherry-pick two games like this...

..and jump to this conclusion...

The 70's Steelers

Joe Gibbs' championship teams

The 90's Cowboys Championship teams

Bill Cowhers Super Bowl teams

Mike Holmgren's 3 Super Bowl teams

John Elways winning Super Bowl teams

Steve Young's Super Bowl team

The Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl team

All could pound the ball at you. IMO, Steve Young and John Elway don't win Championships without Ricky Watters and Terrell Davis and their ability to grind out yards and steady the offense.

Last season, was Green Bay's success all Favre?? Or was it the fact they struck gold in Ryan Grant at RB and the maturation of a young defense??

Did you notice that the Phins were an unusually high + 17 in the turnover ratio? Don't know about you, but I think this had more to do with their success than anything else.

Physical football teams with ball control offenses and aggressive defenses usually win the turnover battle. Nothing unusual about that. Especially a Parcells team.

C'mon Oldfan. This isn't that hard........

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The most recent ten consecutive seasons isn't cherry-picking.

Okay, we disagree.

Selectively leaving out a coach's two most successful seasons to prove a point is cherry-picking. It's like me saying that if you take out 1982, 1987, and 1991, that Joe Gibbs' career was very average.

We can disagree...that's fine.

Hopefully we're both happy soon and the Redskins become a perennial winner.

[The extremist]

any call snyder makes should be to pioli

[Oldfan]

Selectively leaving out a coach's two most successful seasons to prove a point is cherry-picking. It's like me saying that if you take out 1982, 1987, and 1991, that Joe Gibbs' career was very average.

As I see it, saying that Shanny's career without Elway was average is more like saying that Gibbs's career without the Hogs was average.

Gibbs had three championships in his resume. He was 31-36 in his second shift. Shanny only has two. I think we need to be more discerning.

Hopefully we're both happy soon and the Redskins become a perennial winner.

Absolutely.

[Oldfan]

DieselPwr44:

Your position has shifted. First you're talking about run-first, stout defensive teams...

That's interesting being that run first,stout defensive teams like Baltimore,Pittsburgh,NYG and Carolina all had outstanding records and are in the playoffs.

...then you give me a list of teams that used top-notch passing games to get the lead and then ran to hold it (like Gibbs used the Riggo Drill):

The 70's Steelers

Joe Gibbs' championship teams

The 90's Cowboys Championship teams

Mike Holmgren's 3 Super Bowl teams

John Elways winning Super Bowl teams

Steve Young's Super Bowl team

You even padded your list with two WCO teams. It's philosphy is to use quick, short passes so as not to rely solely on the run to achieve ball control.

[Redskins Diehard]

Does 1 Super Bowl in 15 years really warrant this kind of attention? If we hire him now we can expect to win one in 2024