Questioning recent Redskins QB Coaches

[Est.1974]

With all of the on going discussions taking place on here about JC, I thought I'd take a quick look at who has been the QB coaches here during his time as a pro, pre Jim Zorn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like Bill Musgrave in 2005 & Bill Lazor in both 2006 & 2007.

Now, Musgrave looks like he is still at the Falcons ( & doing ok with M.Ryan ) & Lazor is at the Seahawks. I was wondering how they were regarded when they were at the Redskins ? Did they publicly discuss JC & the development he required ?

For all of the talk around JC, both good & bad, one thing I find bewildering is the basic things that Zorn has been working on with him ;

- Stance under Centre & subsequent release back into the pocket

- Basic protection of the football

- Basic Footwork ( to be worked on again in 2009 !)

I'm sure there are others.

Now, whatever you think of Zorn, I reckon he knows how to coach QB's. Sure, he'll have his own techniques, but some of this stuff seems back to basics to me.

This is not intended to be a bash / support JC thread. Its more about the coaching side. Also, I have no experience of coaching & playing so this is a question to the knowledgable..

Are the Redskins guilty of poor player development. Should we be still be talking about & working on a QB's basic footwork in Yr 4 ?

Edit - The suggestion is not that better coaching would have made him 'The QB' we all want, more that the basic flaws in his techinques should have been corrected by this stage of his career.

[Oldfan]

My thread bears on your topic.

[Est.1974]

So, Is Zorn a better QB coach than Musgrave & Lazor ?

[monkeezgob]

But it's not Zorn's job any more, he's supposed to be the head coach of the redskins, not the qb coach, but at the moment he sees himself as hc, oc and qb coach. Let some of it go Jim, or revert back to being a qb coach. Employ staff you can trust and delegate!

[TheLongshot]

But it's not Zorn's job any more, he's supposed to be the head coach of the redskins, not the qb coach, but at the moment he sees himself as hc, oc and qb coach. Let some of it go Jim, or revert back to being a qb coach. Employ staff you can trust and delegate!

Actually he delegates a lot. Sherman Smith handles most of the duties of an OC and Chris Meidt handles a lot of the QB coach duties.

[monkeezgob]

Actually he delegates a lot. Sherman Smith handles most of the duties of an OC and Chris Meidt handles a lot of the QB coach duties.

Well, I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but (for me) part of the problem is Zorn's wearing too many hats (HC, OC, QB coach), most the the time when I watch him during a game he behaves more like a QB coach, focussing his attention immediately and exclusively on Campbell, rather than a HC.

[TrumanB]

Well, I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but (for me) part of the problem is Zorn's wearing too many hats (HC, OC, QB coach), most the the time when I watch him during a game he behaves more like a QB coach, focussing his attention immediately and exclusively on Campbell, rather than a HC.

I think that is to be expected from any first year head coach. I believe you tend to gravitate towards your strengths and of course for Zorn that is coaching quarterbacks. He has a year under his belt now and can now assess his first season. Hopefully, he will find a way to delegate some of the offensive coaching responsibilities to others and be able to concentrate on other aspects of the team. I believe he will always have his hands in coaching offense and qbs, just like Andy Reid in Philly.

[Est.1974]

I think what I was trying to get at, was that 4 years in, we have not advanced JC to the point where he should be.

Whoever is the QB coach, someone should have sorted his technical deficiences out by now.

I was trying to establish what had been done in the 3 years prior to Zorns tenure.

It appears very little, which reflects very poorly on either the Redskins QB coaches during that time, or perhaps JC.

IMO, JC will invariable improve under Zorn,but perhaps in areas that should already have been addressed.

[HailSkinz1]

I think the point is that so far, JC has had a Hall of Fame OC in Joe Gibbs (effectively, Gibbs was the OC his first two years back), another highly acclaimed OC in Al Saunders, another innovative QB coach turned HC/OC in Zorn, and how many other QB coaches now? Three, four? I lost track.

Yet, there has been zero progress out of JC. I wonder what the problem is with all those people teaching JC.

Hail,

H

[SirClintonPortis]

I think the point is that so far, JC has had a Hall of Fame OC in Joe Gibbs (effectively, Gibbs was the OC his first two years back), another highly acclaimed OC in Al Saunders, another innovative QB coach turned HC/OC in Zorn, and how many other QB coaches now? Three, four? I lost track.

Yet, there has been zero progress out of JC. I wonder what the problem is with all those people teaching JC.

Hail,

H

If you read Oldfan's thread, you would know by now that Gibbs wasn't big on mechanics.

[Oldfan]

I think what I was trying to get at' date=' was that 4 years in, we have not advanced JC to the point where he should be.

Whoever is the QB coach, someone should have sorted his technical deficiences out by now.

I was trying to establish what had been done in the 3 years prior to Zorns tenure.

It appears very little, which reflects very poorly on either the Redskins QB coaches during that time, or perhaps JC.

IMO, JC will invariable improve under Zorn,but perhaps in areas that should already have been addressed.[/quote']

Campbell's poor mechanics were worked on after the 2006 season by Al Saunders. That work was continued after the 2007 season by Jim Zorn and will continue this offseason.

Not much was done in 2004 or 2005 probably because Joe Gibbs does not subscribe to the notion that mechanics are important. Many, if not most, coaches think it doesn't matter how the QB throws the ball as long as they get it there.

Saunders and Zorn would likely tell you that poor mechanics will limit the QB's potential.

[HailSkinz1]

If you read Oldfan's thread, you would know by now that Gibbs wasn't big on mechanics.

And if you read one of my other posts in a different thread (don't worry, I wouldn't expect you to read every post! ), you would see that mechanics don't matter when you can't read defenses.

Oldfan has a few years on me, but I remember well the greatness of Gibbs in the 80s and early 90s and what he was able to do with QBs. Doug Williams had one of the worst mechanics around - always threw off his back foot, but he knew where to throw the ball.

Hail,

H

EDIT: But of course, the point I was trying to make is maybe the problem isn't with the teacher, but the pupil.

[monkeezgob]

What Gibbs I excelled at was adapting a scheme to fit the qb, Mark Rypien and three superbowl wins with three different qbs tells its own story. What Gibbs I also excelled at was adapting his whole philosophy to fit the personnel he had. It's worth remembering that Gibbs started by trying to implement a version of 'air Coryell' in Washington, when it didn't work, he was flexible, he adapted and changed it to a more ground based attack. I hope in his second year Zorn has the sense and flexibility not to try to stick with a vision or a philosophy if it's clearly not working,

[Est.1974]

EDIT: But of course, the point I was trying to make is maybe the problem isn't with the teacher, but the pupil.

I accept that point you are making & thus the dilema arises that are we flogging a dead horse in JC.

It just bewilders me that Zorn says he will work on JC's footwork again in 2009.

Anyway, I wont contradict myself turning this into a bash / support JC thread so I'll leave it at that.

[jnhay]

Yet, there has been zero progress out of JC. I wonder what the problem is with all those people teaching JC.

You've seen ZERO progress? I know we'd all like to see more progress, but you still should realize that his stats and play has improved. 7 fumbles this year (only one lost) compared to last year's 13 (with 8 lost), even though he's been sacked 17 more times. His TDs/game has regressed a little, but he's also thrown 5 less interceptions in 3 more games.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan has a few years on me, but I remember well the greatness of Gibbs in the 80s and early 90s and what he was able to do with QBs. Doug Williams had one of the worst mechanics around - always threw off his back foot, but he knew where to throw the ball.

Q. How did Gibbs win SuperBowls with three different QBs?

A. He had the Hogs protecting all three

[monkeezgob]

Q. How did Gibbs win SuperBowls with three different QBs?

A. He had the Hogs protecting all three

Although the strength and stability of the O line was clearly a factor in all of those wins, it's a simplification to claim they were the single reason behind Gibbs' ability to win three titles with three different QBs. Changing the schemes to fit the personnel, flexibility and adjustments were also major factors. If Zorn isn't convinced by Campbell's ability to run a WCO, then surely it makes more sense to adapt the scheme, rather than trying to make Campbell into something he clearly isn't and never will be. Here's hoping he figures it out.

[HailSkinz1]

Q. How did Gibbs win SuperBowls with three different QBs?

A. He had the Hogs protecting all three

True, but you have to have competence at the QB position at least. Gibbs took advantage of his strengths (we were a running team with Riggo, but a big play passing team with Ryp for instance).

The QB doesn't have to be a HoFer, but he has to know how to perform certain functions such as reading defenses.

Hail,

H

[TheLongshot]

Well, I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but (for me) part of the problem is Zorn's wearing too many hats (HC, OC, QB coach), most the the time when I watch him during a game he behaves more like a QB coach, focussing his attention immediately and exclusively on Campbell, rather than a HC.

Point taken, tho I expect he will adjust that as Campbell gets more experience.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

And if you read one of my other posts in a different thread (don't worry, I wouldn't expect you to read every post! ), you would see that mechanics don't matter when you can't read defenses.

Oldfan has a few years on me, but I remember well the greatness of Gibbs in the 80s and early 90s and what he was able to do with QBs. Doug Williams had one of the worst mechanics around - always threw off his back foot, but he knew where to throw the ball.

Hail,

H

EDIT: But of course, the point I was trying to make is maybe the problem isn't with the teacher, but the pupil.

Piss poor argument bro. Campbell knows where to throw the ball, and he knows how to read defenses. He doesn't look lost out there. I'm sure he misses things. I know that he misses things but I'm more concerned with his mechanics than I am his decision making.

To prove my point:

Go watch the 49ers game. Jason made great decisions. His misses were due to accuracy issues, mechanic issues, and just plain bad throws. Throw some drops in there to go with it too.

I'm no JC apologist, many on this board know that, but I also don't pull things out of thin air either. A lot of Campbell critics stretch it a bit. He's a good, average qb at this point, nothing more.

JC may struggle with top flight defenses, but what qb doesn't? Campbell sucks for my taste with regard to what kind of qb I'd like to see as a franchise qb for the Skins. That said, I do think that we can win with him b/c he won't hurt you. He needs to stop playing scared and keep the turnovers down simultaneously. That he hasn't accomplished yet as is evident by his TD numbers. We'll see if one more year makes a difference with him. You could sell swing me one way or another on that. All I know is 13 passing TD's don't cut it. :2cents:

[HailSkinz1]

Piss poor argument bro. Campbell knows where to throw the ball, and he knows how to read defenses. He doesn't look lost out there. I'm sure he misses things. I know that he misses things but I'm more concerned with his mechanics than I am his decision making.

To prove my point:

Go watch the 49ers game. Jason made great decisions. His misses were due to accuracy issues, mechanic issues, and just plain bad throws. Throw some drops in there to go with it too.

I'm no JC apologist, many on this board know that, but I also don't pull things out of thin air either. A lot of Campbell critics stretch it a bit. He's a good, average qb at this point, nothing more.

JC may struggle with top flight defenses, but what qb doesn't? Campbell sucks for my taste with regard to what kind of qb I'd like to see as a franchise qb for the Skins. That said, I do think that we can win with him b/c he won't hurt you. He needs to stop playing scared and keep the turnovers down simultaneously. That he hasn't accomplished yet as is evident by his TD numbers. We'll see if one more year makes a difference with him. You could sell swing me one way or another on that. All I know is 13 passing TD's don't cut it. :2cents:

I'm making a "piss poor argument" and you're argument is based on one game? Come on, man. That's lame.

I stand by what I said. JC's problem is he cannot and does not read defenses. And I'm sorry, but he is painfully lost out there at times. He stays cool and calm, so he covers it up well, but he has no clue where he's going with the ball until he winds up to throw. He has to know where to throw the ball way before that.

Sorry, but that's the case based on all his games, not just one. And yes, I've seen all his games and have several either on DVR or DVD.

JC is an average QB. If you're happy with that, fine.

Hail,

H

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Can anyone make a side by side video of JC dropping back to pass and Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. I'd sure be curious to see how it looks...

[corrupt3d]

And if you read one of my other posts in a different thread (don't worry, I wouldn't expect you to read every post! ), you would see that mechanics don't matter when you can't read defenses.

Oldfan has a few years on me, but I remember well the greatness of Gibbs in the 80s and early 90s and what he was able to do with QBs. Doug Williams had one of the worst mechanics around - always threw off his back foot, but he knew where to throw the ball.

Hail,

H

EDIT: But of course, the point I was trying to make is maybe the problem isn't with the teacher, but the pupil.

Actually that is a piss-poor argument. Want to know why Joe Flacco went so high, after not being able to start in Pitt and transferring to a DI-AA school?

His mechanics are flawless.

Wanna know why Tom Brady fell all the way to the sixth round but then became a stud out of no where? He couldn't read defenses, people questioned his ability to do so coming out of Michigan.

But his mechanics were flawless.

Ever since Tom Brady, mechanics have become a huge basis for judging QBs.

As for JC not being able to read defenses - I disagree completely there and would like you to prove what makes you think so. Everyone says that on this board, but I find 99% of them to be Colt-supporters or JC-haters. Honestly, if Troy Aikman and Jaws said that Jason is "reading the defense" and "going through his reads"...well, they hold a little more credence than 110% of this board. No knock on you man, but I'd like to know where this argument comes from. "Not knowing where to throw the ball" does not imply "cannot read the defense"...frankly, I don't think most of this board understands what "cannot read the defense" means and for the record I play collegiate football (on the defensive side).

[Pitbull]

Guys, reading a defense from one offense to another is totally different. If you run a vertical stretch offense, then the defensive reads are totally different than reading a defense if you run a WCO scheme. As we all know every defense no matter what defensive scheme you run has a weakness.Where that weakness is defined at is determined by the offensive scheme you run.

Thats why it is widely talked about the many different offensive schemes JC has had to learn since being an NFL QB. Once he gets comfortable in the scheme, he will pick up on where the defensive weaknesses are because he will know what reciever will be breaking into that weakness of the defense in their route.

As far as JC mechanics, every QB in the NFL work on footwork techniques in the offseason. The foot work technique allows them to be able to move in the pockect yet still have their feet in a position to set and release the ball quickly. I dont care how strong a QB arm is, basic fundamentals of a position should be worked on every offseason.

Sanatana Moss dropped a couple of passes this year, dont we all think he is going to work on basic fundamentals of catching the football, or route running?

I think sometimes we read into things too deeply