WP: Shapiro...Redskins Finally Got One Right

[Oldfan]

But not the guy leading the league in rushing or the guy who is without an interception, or the Pro Bowl TE? OK....

That's right. We gave up too much for Portis and Campbell. As for Cooley, he could have been had with the #3 we wasted on Brunell -- as it happened, he cost us two picks instead of one.

If Joe gibbs had bargain-hunted every transaction, and relied on the draft as his primary means of building his roster, you wouldn't be limited to picking out just a few players who are looking good now to challenge me.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That's right. We gave up too much for Portis and Campbell. As for Cooley, he could have been had with the #3 we wasted on Brunell -- as it happened, he cost us two picks instead of one.

If Joe gibbs had bargain-hunted every transaction, and relied on the draft as his primary means of building his roster, you wouldn't be limited to picking out just a few players who are looking good now to challenge me.

Pete Kendall cost us two picks instead of one as well. I think the "two" picks that Cooley cost us was a far, FAR better value, considering how long he's gonna be contributing to the team. You're reaching WAY too hard to try and make your point.

[TheLongshot]

Pete Kendall cost us two picks instead of one as well. I think the "two" picks that Cooley cost us was a far, FAR better value, considering how long he's gonna be contributing to the team. You're reaching WAY too hard to try and make your point.

How did Kendall cost us two picks? The only pick we paid is the 4th rounder next year.

I know that Oldfan likes to play things conservative, but we did plenty of that in the 90s and it never got us anywhere. I like the fact that the FO is aggressive and goes after the players that they feel that they need, rather than sitting on the sidelines and hoping for the best.

Jason

[BIGGS_DADDY]

Shapiro is a real JERK. I lost all respect for him when he wrote that lame article -- in an attempt to piggyback on a comment from Wilbon-- after the death of Sean Taylor. He is one miserable old man.

[Oldfan]

Pete Kendall cost us two picks instead of one as well. I think the "two" picks that Cooley cost us was a far, FAR better value, considering how long he's gonna be contributing to the team. You're reaching WAY too hard to try and make your point.

Kendall cost us one pick, but you missed the point anyway. Cooley turned out to be a bargain, but he could have been had for less and the extra pick we gave up might have been spent on Jared Allen who went in the fourth round. You just never know.

[Oldfan]

How did Kendall cost us two picks? The only pick we paid is the 4th rounder next year.

I know that Oldfan likes to play things conservative, but we did plenty of that in the 90s and it never got us anywhere. I like the fact that the FO is aggressive and goes after the players that they feel that they need, rather than sitting on the sidelines and hoping for the best.

Jason

Bargain hunting for personnel isn't conservative. It's smart.

Snyder's money should be spent on building the best personnel system in the business with emphasis on the scouting the college draft. Free agency and trades should be used sparingly.

[TheLongshot]

Bargain hunting for personnel isn't conservative. It's smart.

Bargains are nice, but as a main attitude, it leads to mediocrity. It also limits the field of players available to you, particularly when most of the NFL is spending big bucks on free agents.

The Redskins have had their share of bargains as well, with mixed results.

Snyder's money should be spent on building the best personnel system in the business with emphasis on the scouting the college draft. Free agency and trades should be used sparingly.

What makes you think that Snyder hasn't?

I'm a believer that you should get the players you need however you can get them, and not everyone can use the same methods because there is a limit of good players that can be got in any of those methods. As long as the teams understand the downsides to all of those methods (and despite your love for the draft, there are downsides to that as well), teams can succeed that way.

Beathard was a guy who did use all three methods to get players to build successful teams. Even tho the rules have changed since his day, it is still a valid strategy for many NFL teams.

Jason

[Oldfan]

TheLongshot: Bargains are nice, but as a main attitude, it leads to mediocrity.

That comment baffles me. Explain your logic, please.

It also limits the field of players available to you, particularly when most of the NFL is spending big bucks on free agents.

Obviously it limits the players available to you -- and we should rejoice when our opponents fill their roster with over-priced free agents. It's the Winner's Curse [the winner at an auction always overpays].

The Redskins have had their share of bargains as well...

The team's past methods all but guarantees your statement to be false.

Beathard was a guy who did use all three methods to get players to build successful teams.

You're playing with words. Obviously teams should use all three sources -- but this discussion is about the overall approach (mine is bargain hunting) and how much emphasis should be placed on each source .

[Califan007 The Constipated]

How did Kendall cost us two picks? The only pick we paid is the 4th rounder next year.

I know that Oldfan likes to play things conservative, but we did plenty of that in the 90s and it never got us anywhere. I like the fact that the FO is aggressive and goes after the players that they feel that they need, rather than sitting on the sidelines and hoping for the best.

Jason

I got the trade terms mixed up, it seems lol...I thought we gave the Jets a 5th round pick in 2008, and then if Kendall played more than 80% of the snaps we'd also throw in a 2009 draft pick as well...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Kendall cost us one pick, but you missed the point anyway. Cooley turned out to be a bargain, but he could have been had for less and the extra pick we gave up might have been spent on Jared Allen who went in the fourth round. You just never know.

Those last 4 words is why you tend to make trades in cases like Cooley and McIntosh..."you just never know". You never know if the guy you truly want for your team and your scheme will still be there 30-40 picks later. Instead of focusing on who we "could" have had based on 20-20 hindsight, I prefer focusing on whether or not the players we traded up to get have panned out. Cooley, McIntosh and Campbell all definitely seem to have panned out, to say the least.

[Oldfan]

Those last 4 words is why you tend to make trades in cases like Cooley and McIntosh..."you just never know". You never know if the guy you truly want for your team and your scheme will still be there 30-40 picks later. Instead of focusing on who we "could" have had based on 20-20 hindsight, I prefer focusing on whether or not the players we traded up to get have panned out. Cooley, McIntosh and Campbell all definitely seem to have panned out, to say the least.

When the Skins make a dumb move and go against the odds, it doesn't become a smart move if it just happens to work out well.

The top ten #1 picks in the draft are risky because those contracts put big bucks on the line for college players, but after that, every pick made holds the potential for a performance bargain with relatively little risk for the team.

Trading picks away is usually dumb because obviously it's better to have ten shots at bargains (2008) than four (2004). The exceptions are rare.

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

That's right. We gave up too much for Portis and Campbell. As for Cooley, he could have been had with the #3 we wasted on Brunell -- as it happened, he cost us two picks instead of one.

If Joe gibbs had bargain-hunted every transaction, and relied on the draft as his primary means of building his roster, you wouldn't be limited to picking out just a few players who are looking good now to challenge me.

How do you give too much for a pro bowl QB ( this year) MVP canidate in Portis and a pro bowl tight end ?

You see this is the difference between fan fantasy football and real talk. Truth is teams could go decades without getting a top level QB ,HB or TE.

Fantasy football is strictly on value. That type of crap does not win games. Getting good players no matter how you can does.

You are telling me a QB with 8 TDs and 0 INTs was not worth an extra first round pick and a third? For a team that has not had a franchise QB since 1982?

You are telling me an extra second round pick was too much for Chris Cooley? A pro bowl TE? For a team that has never had a pro bowl TE since i was alive?

The Portis for Bailey is more fantasy football talk. Bailey was gone regardless. Gibbs does not keep players who don't want to be around. Soyou geta MVP type of player in return. Was is there to complain about?

You are dealing in fantasy not reality. In fantasy you can say the pick used for Cooley would have been a probowler. When in reality the chances are he would been average to a bust.

[Oldfan]

You are telling me a QB with 8 TDs and 0 INTs was not worth an extra first round pick and a third? For a team that has not had a franchise QB since 1982?

You are misinformed. We gave up three picks (1,3,4) for a QB with lousy mechanics. The Saunders-Zorn makeover of his mechanics and Jason's success in this new scheme does not change his value at the time he was drafted.

You are telling me an extra second round pick was too much for Chris Cooley? A pro bowl TE? For a team that has never had a pro bowl TE since i was alive?

No you mis-read my remarks on Cooley. I said he could have been drafted with the #3 wasted on Brunell. Trading picks for vets is usually a dumb idea. Cooley could have been brought in at a lower cost. That's not the same as saying we overpaid for him. It just says we could have done better.

The Portis for Bailey is more fantasy football talk. Bailey was gone regardless.

Champ was franchised. If the Skins could not find a trade partner offering a fair deal, he would have played for us (franchise tender 6.8 million) or no one. If Denver had given us Portis and a #2 pick it would have been a fair deal. Nothing Clinton or Champ subsequently did or didn't do has any bearing on their worth at the time of the trade.