gbear Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Yesterday they said they didn't know what they would do if the Kurds entered Kirkuk. They were threatening invasion becuase if the Kurds got control of the oil fields, they feared the Kurds would have everything they needed to form their own nation. Given Turkey's history of violence with the Kurds, this was seen as highly undesirable by the Turks. (I don't mean ot weigh in on which side was right in all of that because I haven't read enough to form an oppinion.) Well, it didn't even take a day for Kirkuk to fall. The people might be waving American flags, but it's the Kurds who made up most of the fighters. The estimates I've read were of 70,000 Kurdish troops and like 6,000 American troops doing the fighting up there. It might nominally be a US force. We might be in charge and providing the airpower, but if Turkey is ever going to get squeemish and think about invading this is when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 What makes this even more complex is that Kirkuk is considered the Kurds ancestral homeland. many were victims of Saddam's ethnic cleansing nad forced to other areas of Iraq. Now they want to return to the homes they were thrown out of a decade ago. Kirkuk probably does rightfully belong to the Kurds, but because of Baath policies, it now has a significant Arab population. It is a situation similar to areas of Israel or East Germany where there's no way to be care to both expelled and current residents. Turkey must be very worried looking at how successful the Kurds have been since regaining their autonomy. Building schools, hospitals, launching their own currency (which has actually strengthened against the dollar, while the Iraqi dinar collapsed). The oil fields of Kirkuk would give them even more revenue to allow them to significantly surpass their Turkish counterparts in well-being and prosperity. Such success might breed even more contempt against the corrupt and anti-Kurdish regime in Turkey. The best solution for Kirkuk and Iraqi Kurdistan (here's my plan, in case anyone at the White House is listening): 1.As part of securing a long term autonomous repbublic within Iraq, the Kurds agree to formal declarations denouncing Kurdish terrorism and agreeing to always respect existing borders, namely: 1b.A formal renunciation of any attempt at any time in the future to form any kind of greater union of Kurdistan with Kurdish areas outside the existing borders of Iraq. 2.Kirkuk becomes an autonomous city, outside of the proposed Kurdish province. 3. A federal tax on all oil revenues from Iraq oilfields, wherever they might be located. Proceeds from these revenues are divided among each region according to population. This should alleviate some of the fighting over territorial demarcations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 We've already promised Turkey that we won't support an independent Kurdish state, so your plan is out. And BTW, the Turkish response as of this morning our time was to send (undisclosed #) "military observers" into Iraq. Keep in mind that Kirkuk is not only the ancestral home of the Kurds, but is also from what I understand the richest oil region in Iraq. So it not only has a history of ties to the Kurdish people, but could also support an independent Kurdish economy, which has the Turks frightened. The only decent option for all involved - and it may well not be a permanent one BTW - is to allow the Kurds to have a full say in a newly democratic Iraq. Any other option save pure autonomy will be unsatisfactory for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by redman We've already promised Turkey that we won't support an independent Kurdish state, so your plan is out. Redman, Please reread my post. I guess I wasn't clear. I stated an autonomous republic (or province, if you will) w/in Iraq, NOT an independent state. As a pre-condition for retaining their autonomy, I said they would have to renounce any intentions to form a greater Kurdish state. Iraq will need to have a Swiss style democracy of autonomous regions (call them cantons, states, republics, provinces, whatever), as opposed to an American or French style of democracy. Otherwise, the Shia who make up approx 60% of the population will be able to override the wishes of the rest of the population. That would be unacceptable to both the Kurds and the Sunni Arabs (not to mention the Assyrians and the Turcomen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 sorry, riggo, I didn't catch that distinction. However, I'm not even sure that that would be acceptable to the Turks, who are absolutely paranoid about their traditional enemies getting a nation just adjacent to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by redman However, I'm not even sure that that would be acceptable to the Turks, who are absolutely paranoid about their traditional enemies getting a nation just adjacent to their own. Sadly, that's very true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 This would never have happened it Turkey would let us bring the 4th from Turkey. Since we don't have the force there we can not control now that area. They can cry all they want but this is because of them refusing to help out. I have a question, why can't the Kurds create thier own country?? Why can't all of these ethnic groups go this? Look at Yugoslavia, it happend, it wasn't nice but it did. Turkey might just have to let it happen because one day it just might. Look at Russia today, I don't agree with these countries trying to hold back certain ethnic groups. Yes this means I believe Palestine should have their own state as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted April 11, 2003 Author Share Posted April 11, 2003 I have to admit I think it's a bit hypocritical to say the Kurd shouldn't have their own state but the Palestinians should. I don't understand. Do the Muslims believe the Kurds have had it better under Sadam than the Palestinians under Israeli rule and that justifies a state? I just missed the arguement there. Of course if I were being honest, I'd have to admit that I still think a Palestinian state is a mistake. They don't have the makings of an economy, and I'm not sure how they'll feed their population if they get their state. Atleast the Kurds have shown they can build an economy with or without the oil fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 what you said is very true, however if Palestinians did get there own state, and say they did falter. The couldn't blame anyone then, and the rest of the arab countries couldn't either. The Kurds is a different story. If the Kurds were to create a state it would be the largest in the middle east. The Kurd population is almost all of Northern Iraq, a huge part of Turkey and Iran. Turkey and Iran are scared to death if the Kurds created a state since theres would be torn apart by it. The other reason why the middle East wouldn't want the Kurds to get a state is guess who there #1 ally would be....................................... USA and that would be a devasting blow to all of these regimes. The Kurds already have their own form of government without a state. All they are missing is the financial ability, the northern Iraq oil fields are what the need for this to happen. This Kurd issue could be the biggest issue of the whole war in the long run, could get very interesting. All the US has to say is look, since we couldn't get our troops through Iran or Turkey, we couldn't stop them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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