phishhead Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Brown 43 Kilmer, I agree! If it was for oil, we would be paying $ .50 cents a gallon because after the gulf war we would have the 900 some oil wells for our own! I can dig lower gas prices after this skirmish! 913, answer the question about oppression! Its not just about oil. Thats just a little part. The thing is, we don't need oil! We are not in a shortage of oil. The gas prices are not high because of a shortage. Thats silly. Maybe thats not what you were implying or meaning.. I'm just saying that because of the "we would be paying $.50 cents a gallon" part. Even if we did have 900 some oil wells, we would still be paying high prices for gas. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan913 Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Although completely suppressed in the media, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking. This is an oil curreny war. The real reason for this war is this administration's goal of preventing further OPEC momentum towards the euro as an oil transaction currency standard. However, in order to pre-empt OPEC, they need to gain geo-strategic control of Iraq along w/ it's 2nd largest proven oil reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by skinsfan913 Although completely suppressed in the media, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking. This is an oil curreny war. The real reason for this war is this administration's goal of preventing further OPEC momentum towards the euro as an oil transaction currency standard. However, in order to pre-empt OPEC, they need to gain geo-strategic control of Iraq along w/ it's 2nd largest proven oil reserves. I'll ask politely one last time... Who are the people currently being oppressed here in America??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan913 Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Buddha the reason why I have not answered you is because that is a whole different bag of worms that doesn't need to be opened right now. I just hope you don't think that everyone in the U.S. has the same rights and opportunities that you probably enjoy on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 If that was even close to true, we could do what I proposed today and have proposed hundreds of times when morons trot out the "All about Oil" garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Buddha I'll ask politely one last time... Who are the people currently being oppressed here in America??? Buddha, I'll do my best to answer on his half. Now, maybe this isn't what he ws meaning. But to me, the opression of America is quite simple. The main oppression I see, is in the middle class, blue collar, hard working crowd. You know, the ones that work their asses off to get nowhere? Probably the predominant crowd here. Lower class individuals, for example, in a ghetto, are force fed to believe life is nothing more than a gun, crack cocaine, and a "dope" ride. Oppression in my eyes, maybe not yours. Those are just some examples of mine I'm throwing out there. I have no idea what 913 was getting at, but I would guess its similar to what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by skinsfan913 Buddha the reason why I have not answered you is because that is a whole different bag of worms that doesn't need to be opened right now. I just hope you don't think that everyone in the U.S. has the same rights and opportunities that you probably enjoy on a daily basis. When you say everyone in they US, are you saying US citizens or are you talking illegal aliens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 My bad.. I didn't see 913's post referring to the oppression quietness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 If that was even close to true, we could do what I proposed today and have proposed hundreds of times when morons trot out the "All about Oil" garbage. Are you saying it's not at least "Partly" about Oil? Or that Oil and reserve currency concerns have NOTHING to do with this war? Do you think that the legions of geopolitical strategists we have in the Pentagon, the State Department, Department of Energy, Federal Reserve, etc. have ignored the Oil issue in favor of unadulteraded altruism and concern for "The Iraqi People". If that's what you believe, there's a bridge I'd like to sell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Absolutely not. Oil is a big part of the conflict. BUt not in the manner the extreme left tries to make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan913 Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 thank phishhead you put my thoughts to words nicely:cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 and the best part is that those against the war are content in the ineluctable position that they support murder, torture and slavery! they have to be - arguiing for negotiated change is a perscription for more of the same. it's beautiful. there is no universal rule here - that argument is unadulterated crap. we wnet in and liberated a people suffering the worst sort of oppression. we also drove a huge wedge into the terrorist heart. that doesn't mean we have t do this in every instance. bottom line: they are not part of the solution and they are satisified with the status quo ante. they are bankrupt intellectually and morally. and they have never done the heavy lifting. how about this...let's send all the lefties parading these arguments to iraq and stand them on a street corner where they can voice their profundities. oh...and the absolute best part? this is ultimately about power in this country after all.......to achieve the left's agenda, they ultimately must get folks like me to assent. their dispicable performance during this whole war has ossified resistanec. their goals - even when laudatory - are now going to fought with greater effort. we know what they truly stand for. It certainly is convenient to believe that everyone opposed to this war is a unpatriotic pacifist lefty with bankrupt draconian designs on your pocketbook. Good vs. Evil. It's neat and clean. However, that simply isn't the case. I participated in the anti-war march in Seattle on February 15. And, unlike the WTO protests, which WERE dominated by lefties, the VAST majority of people who marched against the Iraqi war were normal, middle class people, young and old, Democrat, Independent and, yes, even registered Republicans -- My best friend's Mom is a die-hard Republican, has never been a pacifist, yet she totally thinks this war is BS. Just because someone questions the motives, timing, tactics, etc. of this war doesn't mean they're unpatriotic. Also, while military service is great sacrifice, men and women in service are NOT the only people in this country who do the "Heavy Lifting". Off the top of my head, I can think of my friend Lauren, who gets paid chicken change while she busts her a$s 10 hours a day trying to find shelter for homeless families, whose numbers are growing, while "compassionate conservativism" slashes budgets to help the needy. ... or her sister Amy who taught special ed for 7 years in a school with a 95% poverty rate, where most of the kids had severe behavioral issues and/or faced violence in the home. These people, frankly, do enough "patriotism" and "heavy lifting" for me, and I value it as much, if not more, than someone's ability to shoot and be shot at. And if it's a sinister agenda that I believe these people should be paid more through increased public spending, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 After reading this thread all I can think is that liberals are idiots who should no longer exist. Why can't 20 million of my Muslim brothers and sisters be free? Thats all I ask. Why cant other Muslims celebrate like they did in Michigan and Baghdad today. Liberals are just morons living in some alternative universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Absolutely not. Oil is a big part of the conflict. BUt not in the manner the extreme left tries to make out. Yes, but to what extent? And to what extent is just or moral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Absolutely not. Oil is a big part of the conflict. BUt not in the manner the extreme left tries to make out. Kilmer, I actually agree with you here. I think I understand where you are coming from a little better too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Riggo........ awsome post.:notworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan After reading this thread all I can think is that liberals are idiots who should no longer exist. Why can't 20 million of my Muslim brothers and sisters be free? Thats all I ask. Why cant other Muslims celebrate like they did in Michigan and Baghdad today. Liberals are just morons living in some alternative universe Well, there was a lot of celebration in Afghanistan when the Taliban fell, yet that country, outside of Kabul, is completely ruled by chaos and warlords, with just as much rape and killing as before ... except they're worse off because we bombed the sh!t out of their country. Perhaps it is you who's been smoking the pipe -- people jubilating in the streets does not mean the country is fixed. Who's going to police the country? Who's going to rebuild it? Who's going to pay for it? How does the US ensure that the government in Iraq is to its liking without keeping a signifigant presence in the country (at taxpayer expense).? We all knew the Iraqis only had 30% of their 1991 army, and that defeating the remainder would be easier. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Riggo, Excellent points. Just because Saddam is likely gone, the the problems still remain. Who's to day democracy is going to work in Iraq, it sure did wonders for the Soviet Union. Democracy is wonderful in the US, but all cultures may not be cut out for it.. does that mean I'm saying they deserve a dictator like Saddam, no, that's not what I'm saying, but they have to have it with in them selves to want democracy as a whole, not just a few cheering people in front of the tv's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 phishhead-- Thanks for at least attempting to answer on skinsfan913's behalf. skinsfan913-- Rule of thumb since you are new here. This isn't a sounding board or a soapbox where you can just make statements without backing them up with facts or elaboration when someone challenges you. If you aren't prepared or willing to address something you post, then don't post the thought at all. With that being said, a follow-up question for you both. How are lower and middle class American citizens being oppressed when they possess the same freedoms and ability to exercise free will that all of us enjoy? Aside from obvious gross deficiencies in public school systems for lower-class Americans, where is this oppression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Buddha phishhead-- Thanks for at least attempting to answer on skinsfan913's behalf. skinsfan913-- Rule of thumb since you are new here. This isn't a sounding board or a soapbox where you can just make statements without backing them up with facts or elaboration when someone challenges you. If you aren't prepared or willing to address something you post, then don't post the thought at all. With that being said, a follow-up question for you both. How are lower and middle class American citizens being oppressed when they possess the same freedoms and ability to exercise free will that all of us enjoy? Aside from obvious gross deficiencies in public school systems for lower-class Americans, where is this oppression? Buddha, There are more problems than just public school deficiencies. First, I'll start off with middle class issues. A couple of weeks ago, a relative of mine, who is a truck driver for a big chemical company, got hurt on the job. Seriously injuring his neck and back. So while he is not able to work, he should be able to receive comp pay, right? Right. But guess what, they won't pay him. Now, he has to get a lawyer to try to get his pay, which he should recieve. Basically, what I'm getting at.. Is that hard working americans, with sh*tty blue collar, hard working, low paying jobs, get screwed by big greedy nasty corporations daily. Just so they can save a few extra bucks. Taking the food off of the workers table just so they can have the riches in life. Now, if that isn't a form of oppression in your mind, I'm sorry. Thats just one form of oppression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by phishhead Buddha, There are more problems than just public school deficiencies. First, I'll start off with middle class issues. A couple of weeks ago, a relative of mine, who is a truck driver for a big chemical company, got hurt on the job. Seriously injuring his neck and back. So while he is not able to work, he should be able to receive comp pay, right? Right. But guess what, they won't pay him. Now, he has to get a lawyer to try to get his pay, which he should recieve. Basically, what I'm getting at.. Is that hard working americans, with sh*tty blue collar, hard working, low paying jobs, get screwed by big greedy nasty corporations daily. Just so they can save a few extra bucks. Taking the food off of the workers table just so they can have the riches in life. Now, if that isn't a form of oppression in your mind, I'm sorry. Thats just one form of oppression. I agree with you that this is a sh!tty scenario if the guy is truly being forced to get his workman's comp benefits "the hard way." But just like my co-worker that always b!tches and moans about how the office policy manual reads or the fact that he can't get OT because he's now a manager, we all have the free will and opportunity to find a better employer. Or even start our own business and be our own boss. Or even hire an attorney and sue the crap out of that greedy corporation. I like those options much better than the hopeless poverty or prison/torture chambers that were available to Iraqi citizens up until today. To me, the guy that sits around and complains about his situation instead of doing something about it is oppressing himself rather than being oppressed by anyone or anything. Plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Buddha I agree with you that this is a sh!tty scenario if the guy is truly being forced to get his workman's comp benefits "the hard way." But just like my co-worker that always b!tches and moans about how the office policy manual reads or the fact that he can't get OT because he's now a manager, we all have the free will and opportunity to find a better employer. Or even start our own business and be our own boss. Or even hire an attorney and sue the crap out of that greedy corporation. I like those options much better than the hopeless poverty or prison/torture chambers that were available to Iraqi citizens up until today. To me, the guy that sits around and complains about his situation instead of doing something about it is oppressing himself rather than being oppressed by anyone or anything. Plain and simple. Well first of all, he(my step-dad btw) doesn't sit around and just complain about his situation. He went, got a lawyer(which costs more money), and now he has to wait for I'm not sure how long. I'm sure its easy for you to say all this about starting a business, and getting jobs so easily, since you have one. Around here, a good job is working for one of these corporations. Or even being a telemarkerter, is a good job. Its a very sad situation. And like you, I like the options we have as Americans more than an Iraqi citizen. But that doesn't mean things shouldn't change, or that they couldn't be better. Oh, and I don't think someone working in an office really knows about manual labor. Unless, they've had a job where they actually had to phyiscally work. But I definitely respect your opinion, and partly agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Oh, and I don't think someone working in an office really knows about manual labor. Unless, they've had a job where they actually had to phyiscally work. But I definitely respect your opinion, and partly agree with it. I'll just say one thing about this statement and then I'll shut up. I've heard blue collar guys say this A LOT, that no office worker could understand how it is to come home every day physically aching and exhausted. That office workers have cushy jobs and do nothing to earn their high pay. But let's assume that this to the office worker that just happens to be a front line bureaucrat charged with immense responsibilities like keeping taxes low, improving schools and public services on a shoestring budget, and bringing new jobs to a distressed community-- all things for the average blue collar worker. See if that blue collar worker wants to trade places after spending a day with a TV camera or news reporter in their face, an irate citizen swearing at them on the telephone, and piles of critical deadlines that they bear sole responsibility to meet. Yeah, oppression can come in many forms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I am definately not taking sides, but I have been a priviledged athlete, blue collar and white collar worker in my life... Even with all the responsibilites that I now have including the jobs and pay of others, I would NEVER in a million years want to go back to any type of manual labor again. That sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridironmike Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by skinsfan913 So it's okay for the U.S. to label any country they want as a terrorist threat to us and invade that country even if we have alterior motives(oil). What happens when the smaller countries that we continue to pick on says enough is enough and band together. Like say all the Middle East and North Vietnam. And by the way N. Korea is not out of the news. Just yesterday I heard on CNN that we were trying to get the U.N. to have a Security Council meeting on N.K. China says that the U.N. has no business discussing any issues dealing with their nuclear programs. So what do you do now? Do we invade them next? And if so are we prepared to deal with N.K. and their ally China. I think your facts are, well, not facts. China doesn't feel that North Korea needs to mess with nukes. From now on, the USA will be the predator instead of the prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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