Are you jealous about the Saints having Brees?

[Troy Fakeman]

We do have a "Brees"....in C. Brennan, right?

LoL...

[benskins26]

Good post and I agree with your central point that it is way too early to either make a judgement on Campbell or give up on him. However what I would say is that if we are to get the best out of Jason we need to build an offense around him which suits his strengths not try to force him into a system which he is not best suited to.

However Drew Brees as of today would be a perfect fit for the system Jim Zorn is trying to implement. Put him in a Redskins uniform and we instantly become a playoff team - not that I'm in anyway suggesting thats something we should try to make happen or is any in way realistic.

Agreed.

But I would make that move for Brees no matter what it took. But its sadly impossible I think. He's one of the 4 or 5 qbs that can't be had by anybody, not even Danny, no matter what. Wish it was different. I know you're point is just an example, but still, can you imagine how great that move would be?

[benskins26]

Excellent thread by the way. good points on both sides. I think there has to be middle ground. You give him this season and then hold open competition next offseason if he doesnt show significant improvement. I totally agree that this team only has a couple years left before a possible blowup.

[eljeasel]

1.) yeah my fault on that. but it's relevant because people are saying he still needs 2-3 years and to not give up on him...he'll be 30 by that time.

2.) throwing late and accuracy are pretty much identical in a sense...if you throw it late then it is not accurate at all but i do see what you are saying in a sense. He is afraid to run which hurts our chances.

3.) him checking down is not good at all, he could scramble for more yards and the pocket ahead of him is usually open with his checkdown having the ability to block for him if need be.

4.) sorry i'm adding one. but a lot of people are comparing him to Rodgers and i'm just sitting here watching the game. The main thing I am noticing is that AR is going through each of his targets one by one and doesn't stick to just one. Sorry he just looks like he knows what he's doing in his first start ever

1. And if hes 30? Terry Bradshaw maintains that he wasnt good until he was 30. Alot of people maintain that he was never good. 2-3 years seems like a long time, and it is. But its probly not too bad to think about this as a year long try out. If he looks good enough (really hard call to make) at the end of 6 games, he should get 6 more. If he looks good at the end of this year, give him the next one and then hes 28 turning 29 and hes in what would be the best years of his career.
   
2. I dont think hes afraid to run, wasnt he like 4th in rushing yards for qbs last year. Unless you are talking about just this year, which remains to be seen. Im not sold on what weve seen so far being indicative of what we will or could be by mid/end of the season. This is a work in progress. A note on late vs. accurate: Deep Ball to Moss. The ball was on the money. Campbell had to adjust in the pocket and Zorn said something about he didnt look upfield soon enough cause he was looking for the rush. By the time he reset and threw the ball Moss had quit on the throw (Bad on Moss). But a late accurate ball has the same effect as an innacurate pass is a different beast.
   
3. About the scramble vs the checkdown. Im a fan of Campbell's mobility. It could be a great weapon if harnessed correctly. That being said Im not sure about its better than the checkdown. I never played so I dont konw who its on but I read someone say that the route runner's responsibility to get beyond the 1st down marker cause the QB doesnt have time to check to see if hes beyond the marker. Maybe its someone making excuses but it makes sense to me in part. Last year those checkdown passes were passes that Campbell tried to squeeze into tight situations which were those late game INTs that everyone remembers. I still think its the right decision not to force the throw. Scramble? Sometimes you are right, he needs to just go go go.
   
4. AR is benefiting from one thing. Hes been in the same system seeing if run right for 2 years (3rd in the system). He looked so comfortable and he knew where his guys were and he kenw his guys were going to catch it if he gave it to them. Even still, hes essentially a rookie, lets call it a rookie plus. Being a rookie plus he will do some dumb stuff later this season that will have you asking "why would you do that." Which brings us back to the initial point of patience. We are a work in progress. Key word I guess is progress hopefully. Even if Campbell bombs out and isnt our guy. If you give him the 1-3 years and then put in Brennan, he should be that much more ready having been in the same system for so long AND you could still have Campbell who has won ballgames competing for the job or even being the backup as some attest he will inevitably end up (Campbell is 7-13 as a starter vs Jay Cutler's 9-12 and probably 10-12 after the Raiders game). Of course... that assumes that the Zorn system will work.
   

[redman]

There is only one problem with what you are saying. If this was a rebuilding year then we can handle the struggles of JC. The problem is we were a playoff team last year with aging OL's and DL's and a lot of talent. The window for this team may shut next year. That SD team you talk about was young and had promise, we are there now and need a leader to guide us. This team will not be together much longer.

Oh, sorry, I forgot we're a "playoff team".

You're right, we'd better plug in our super duper special playoff team QB.

[Soul Swinger]

Are we talking QBs or pantyliners? Just checking.

[myzhi]

So, we should draft a top 5 QB just like the Chargers. Maybe, than JC will have to fire on butt and he'll get down to business becoming a "good" QB because NO more job security the following year.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I have tried to avoid personal attacks on Jason Campbell, focusing instead on results. But, threads like this, with misguided optimism, miss the point and need to be addressed squarely.

Jason Campbell isn't football-smart enough to be an NFL starting quarterback. He takes too long to learn anything, and the learning curve never stops for QBs in the NFL. At every level of success, the next step takes more learning in a shorter amount of time. First you have to learn to play at all in the NFL. Then you have to learn your system. Then you have to beat the bad teams. Then you have to beat the average teams. Finally you have to beat the good teams, and beating the good teams means being smarter, faster in head-to-head matchups than the other guy and the other team.

You do all that successfully, then you have to beat the good teams all over again, in a row, in the playoffs, under intense pressure.

Having a slow learner at QB is disqualification at the start. There is no chance ever to be a great NFL starter. The best you can hope for is to learn a given system and play competently when called upon as a backup.

Campbell is 27 going on 28. It's time to turn off the lights on any idea that he will be a starting NFL QB. His best hope is to catch on with a stable team as a backup, as Ramsey did in Denver.

***

Added comment:

Saying Campbell isn't football-smart enough to get it done as an NFL starter sounds like a vicious insult. It really isn't, because what is required is freakish and highly unusual.

To put this in personal terms, I played football in high school, but I did not have the physical tools, or leadership, or football smarts, to play the QB position at the high school level.

As an adult, I'm a pretty smart guy. I founded and run a company that has made more than $20 million revenue. But, it still takes slo-mo TiVo for me to figure out what the hell really happened on many NFL plays, with 22 guys all moving at once.

Being a successful NFL starting QB is to have such a freakish combination of talent, it's almost impossible to find and therefore almost impossible to recognize in advance. Since almost no one has what is required, it's difficult even for professional scouts and coaches to project college QBs and rookie NFL QBs accurately and determine if they have what it takes to be one of the freakish few who succeed. (One or 2 men per year on average.)

However, I do believe it is easier to rule people out. There are about 6 billion people living who will never be good NFL starting QBs. I am one of these people, and so is Jason Campbell.

[Sonny9TD]

No I'm just concerned that with as many draft picks we gave up we could have had any one we wanted and we chose Campbell? We have had every chance in the world to find a QB and still can't choose wisely. And by the simple fact we gave up a small fortune of draft picks for him we won't let him go or admit we were fleeced so we go through this battered draft choice syndrome. That was a bad decision. Even if Campbell could scramble, or throw accurately, or read defenses it would have still been too many draft picks.

[ttr77]

I realize that having JC start and succeed is the best way for the franchise to save face, but other than that I can't think of another reason for him to be starting at this point. He hasn't shown much of anything in 20 starts or so.

Personally, I don't care who is behind center as long as the offense is run efficiently and the team wins. Hell, Zorn could strap on a helmet for all I care...just move the ball and score some points.

[redman]

Just how bad was it with Drew Brees in San Diego before he turned the corner? Check this out:

Drew Brees not getting any better

October 28, 2003

TEMPE, Ariz. – About the only thing normal on this abnormal night was the play of the Chargers, who now have shown they can lose home football games in two states. Only 48 more to go.

Other than that, this was a Monday night of the bizarre.

The team tried to make the best of a bad situation, traveling more than 300 miles to escape the fire and smoke of San Diego to meet the Miami Dolphins. It was a huge logistical undertaking, and they carried off everything – but a victory. In that department, they had no chance.

But Chargers emblems were painted in both end zones. There were banners everywhere. The cheerleaders were on hand. Entry was free, and 73,014 people showed up, donating about $200,000 to San Diego fire victims.

Junior Seau's homecoming was spoiled, but his new team, the Dolphins, got an easy 26-10 victory, so I'm sure he'll take that and hightail it back to South Beach without much regret.

It figured the Chargers would have trouble doing much offensively against the Fish, who may have the best defense in football. But this was over before a couple of ASU fraternity brothers spilled their first beer.

Quarterback Drew Brees was awful. It may have been the worst performance of his career. I haven't been an advocate of relieving him with veteran Doug Flutie. If there ever were going to be a time, last night was it.

But head coach Marty Schottenheimer didn't consider it.

"No, I did not," he said.

He should have. His team needs life. What's flatter than flat? That's what his players were. And they were out of it in a hurry, as has been their habit through this 1-6 season.

On the third play of the game, a horrible Brees pass was intercepted by Miami cornerback Patrick Surtain, who returned it to the Chargers' 6. Brian Griese, subbing for starter Jay Fiedler, is not a good quarterback, but he was Sammy Baugh last night. He responded with a quick, 5-yard touchdown pass to Chris Chambers.

Then Brees was intercepted again. The Dolphins kicked a field goal. It was 10-0 with 8:34 remaining in the first. This mountain had to look brutal to a sherpa. It was over.

Brees threw three picks in the first half. "You can't turn the ball over and win," Schottenheimer said. "Give the ball to the other guys, and they're going to beat you."

Then why not pull the QB?

"I'm not a guy who changes quarterbacks," the coach, a stubborn man, insisted. Bruce Bochy would.

The play of Brees is starting to come into serious question. He now has won one of his last 11 starts, three of his last 16. Is it all his fault? No. His pass protection wasn't good at all, especially as the game progressed (he was sacked six times, a season-high).

But a whole lot of last night's blame could be placed in his lap. He has trouble throwing the ball straight, and that's not good.

The Dolphins have the best run defense in the league, so the odds of tailback LaDainian Tomlinson having one of his remarkable performances were not good. It was going to be the quarterback's game to win, and he couldn't come close to doing it.

Three interceptions in the first half – including one in the end zone – helped take the hosts down 24-3 by the break. I've said from the very beginning the Chargers would go as far as Brees would take them.

Now we know.

I hate to call for Flutie. I really do. He's 41 years old and not the future of this team. Thing is, we sure don't know if Brees is, either, and if he's playing poorly and his team lacks life, maybe it's time for Schottenheimer to pull his starter when he's throwing a stinker. I do not, for a minute, believe Flutie should start a game unless there's an injury.

As it was, if it weren't for Tomlinson catching 11 Brees passes out of the backfield for 80 yards, I hate to think what kind of numbers Brees would have had. Chargers receivers never – I mean never – appear to be open. Is there no way to get David Boston separation? Do other defenses never make mistakes? Is the long pass, or stretching a defense, anathema?

"He was in a situation where in a number of cases he didn't have a lot of time," Schottenheimer said of Brees.

That's true. But when a team drives a total of four yards to score its first 10 points – off of turnovers created by the quarterback – it seems to be Brees created the situation. When Miami knows you have to throw it, you're finished

Clearly now, the Chargers can't go on like this. Their play calling is far, far too predictable and, when it isn't – like on the goal line last night – it's usually stupid.

"We've got to get 'em to perform at a higher level," the coach said. "We didn't do that tonight. That touchdown LaDainian scores (a 1-yard run) . . . we don't block a guy. He did it all with skill."

Schottenheimer can say his defense is playing better – it did put the clamps on back Ricky Williams – but Miami is not a great offensive team. San Diego's offense simply is terrible. With as good a running back as there is in the world, there has to be more it can do.

And they can dump those all-blue uniforms. The Chargers play football like Duke. They don't have to look like Duke.

Sound familiar?

[redman]

And more:

Brees hangs onto job even though he can't hang onto ball

By Bernie Wilson

ASSOCIATED PRESS

5:55 p.m. December 22, 2003

JIM BAIRD / Union-Tribune

Ball security and job security. They're popular topics these days with the Chargers. Coach Marty Schottenheimer and quarterback Drew Brees both expect to retain their jobs next season. Schottenheimer just wishes Brees would do a better job of retaining the ball.

SAN DIEGO – Ball security and job security. They're popular topics these days with the Chargers.

Coach Marty Schottenheimer isn't worried about his job. Quarterback Drew Brees isn't, either, even though he has committed six turnovers in the two games since returning from a five-game benching that was supposed to make him better.

"I think that he'll continue to be here, and so will I," Schottenheimer said Monday.

The Chargers (3-12) will end yet another lost season with a home game Sunday against the Oakland Raiders. And Brees will be back as starter even though he was yanked in the final minutes of a 40-24 loss at Pittsburgh on Sunday.

Brees threw two interceptions and lost a fumble. After his second pickoff, which was returned 25 yards for a touchdown by Deshea Townsend, Schottenheimer told Brees on the sideline that 41-year-old Doug Flutie was going in.

The two had what appeared to be an animated conversation, but Schottenheimer disputed that.

"There was nothing heated about it," Schottenheimer said. "He wanted to know why I pulled him from the game, and I explained to him very specifically why."

The explanation: "Because you're turning the ball over."

Schottenheimer said he has spoken endlessly about avoiding turnovers, only to see Brees fail to get the message.

"Quite frankly, I want to find out if I'm going to be able to reach him," Schottenheimer said. "I have not lost confidence in Drew Brees, but he is going to have to step forward and show an ability to do this, to take care of the football, because it will continue to compromise our ability to succeed if we don't embrace that aspect of what we do."

Brees said he understood what Schottenheimer was trying to do.

"When you make it an emphasis long enough like he has and it's not happening, you feel like you have to have a reaction to that, and his reaction was to pull me out after the third turnover," Brees said.

"At the time it made me mad. I wanted to stay in there and keep playing. I understand where he was going with that. We've talked about it."

This won't necessarily be Brees' last chance, "but he's got to show progress," Schottenheimer said.

Brees has thrown 15 interceptions and 10 touchdown passes this year, and he's 1-9 as the starter.

Interceptions happen, Schottenheimer said, but fumbles really bother him because "that means, really, that you're not concentrating and focusing on taking care of it."

Brees admitted that his fumble Sunday "was probably carelessness." The Chargers, who fell behind 21-0 in the first quarter, had pulled to 21-17 in the third quarter when Brees was sacked and fumbled on the Chargers' 20. Pittsburgh scored two plays later.

"The emphasis for me is ball security, ball security," Brees said.

And job security? If the Chargers lose Sunday, they'll clinch the top pick in the draft for the second time in four years. The Chargers traded away the No. 1 pick in April 2001, but there's been plenty of speculation that if the Chargers clinch the top pick they could use it on Eli Manning.

"I see myself as the starter here for a long time," Brees said. "If they want to bring somebody in, then whatever. It doesn't strain my focus or anything else. Whatever happens, happens."

Schottenheimer said he expects to be back next year even though the Chargers are 11-20 in his two seasons. He has two years remaining on his contract, at $2.5 million per season.

The Chargers, who've lost 19 of their last 24 games, will miss the playoffs for the eighth straight year.

[GaryGreenMonk]

There is 1 MAJOR difference between Jason Campbell and alot of the QB's that would become very good.

They were not afraid to put the ball in the air. They threw A LOT of INT's. All of them.

I gaurantee if you look at the stats that Campbell has far less picks than any of them did at the same point.

This is actually not a good thing.

[Die Hard]

There is 1 MAJOR difference between Jason Campbell and alot of the QB's that would become very good.

They were not afraid to put the ball in the air. They threw A LOT of INT's. All of them.

I gaurantee if you look at the stats that Campbell has far less picks than any of them did at the same point.

This is actually not a good thing.

Campbell hasn't really been asked to direct an ariel assault. Without looking up the stats... I'm pretty sure his pass attempt numbers are pretty low. The Redskins have let the running game be the focus of the offense.

The only time Campbell has had an opportunity to throw with regularity is late in games when the team is down and it has to get chunks of yardage fast

[Ray Brown]

There is 1 MAJOR difference between Jason Campbell and alot of the QB's that would become very good.

They were not afraid to put the ball in the air. They threw A LOT of INT's. All of them.

I gaurantee if you look at the stats that Campbell has far less picks than any of them did at the same point.

This is actually not a good thing.

He hasn't had the chances to take shots. Joe Gibbs and Al saunders sheltered him like a scared kitten; handing the ball off 2/3 of the time and then when they did let him throw it was just little dinks and dunks. JC has big tim arm, it needs to be let loose. If he makes mistakes...oh well thats how you learn, but it would be better than watching him check down all the the time.

[eljeasel]

Just how bad was it with Drew Brees in San Diego before he turned the corner? Check this out:

Sound familiar?

It just goes to show you that you can change how you play. Id like to see a massive turnaround from alot of players here.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Campbell hasn't really been asked to direct an ariel assault. Without looking up the stats... I'm pretty sure his pass attempt numbers are pretty low. The Redskins have let the running game be the focus of the offense.

The only time Campbell has had an opportunity to throw with regularity is late in games when the team is down and it has to get chunks of yardage fast

I would argue that half the time, JC will hold the ball too long and take a sack, or check down to Portis. (going for the sure 2/3 yards)

instead of putting the ball out there and letting his reciever go up and get it.

You dont get better at this game as a QB.. uless you do alot of the latter. Problem is you will fail quite a few times for awhile.

[Die Hard]

I would argue that half the time, JC will hold the ball too long and take a sack, or check down to Portis. (going for the sure 2/3 yards)

instead of putting the ball out there and letting his reciever go up and get it.

You dont get better at this game as a QB.. uless you do alot of the latter. Problem is you will fail quite a few times for awhile.

Absolutely. There's some truth to that.

[myzhi]

There is 1 MAJOR difference between Jason Campbell and alot of the QB's that would become very good.

They were not afraid to put the ball in the air. They threw A LOT of INT's. All of them.

I gaurantee if you look at the stats that Campbell has far less picks than any of them did at the same point.

This is actually not a good thing.

I blame that on MB factor. Mr noodle arm playing no risk football, winning the QB job, and thus, JC learned to play the same probably (holding ball too long and doesn't throw until WRs are open) set him back years or ruin is career forever. Let's just Say Scott Brunell has set our QB position back 5 years and counting.