When a child is the enemy.

[TheKurp]

This story is about victims on both sides of the conflict.

The 10-year-old is a victim of those who used their adult influence to get this child involved in the war. It cost him his life.

The 21-year-old soldier is a victim in that he will be forced to live with the memory of killing a child, despite having no other choice.

Families of both of these people will no doubt themselves become victims as they deal with the aftermath of this incident.

In this case I feel for all sides involved in this tragedy. War truly is hell.

Soldier faces grim reality of war

By Matthew Cox, special for USA TODAY

KARBALA, Iraq — Pfc. Nick Boggs never thought he'd have a problem killing the enemy. Then he came to fight in Iraq, where young children race onto battlefields to pick up weapons.

Even in the brutal context of war, there are extremes. For Boggs, it was the toughest decision of his life, as he pointed his machine gun at a 10-year-old boy.

Boggs, who is from Petersburg, Alaska, is an M-240B machine-gunner with B Company, 3rd Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault). He's 21.

Infantrymen often view a confirmed kill as a rite of passage, a soldier's way of proving his worth. He was no different when he came to the 101st a little more than a year ago.

"I use to think the same way. You've got to get a kill to be in combat," he said, sitting in the grimy courtyard of what had once been part of a large school.

"But it's all about what you have to do to get out of there alive and accomplish your mission."

Boggs learned this dreadful lesson Saturday when his unit came under intense fire from machine guns and rocket propelled grenades, called RPGs, as they worked their way through a residential neighborhood on the edge of this city of 400,000.

During the running series of gunfights, one Bradley fighting vehicle would be destroyed by RPGs and a soldier would be critically wounded.

It was just past noon when B Company entered the edge of the city. Iraqi mortar rounds were dropping with their sickening crack, and Boggs was running through 100-degree heat carrying a load close to 100 pounds.

As Kiowa Warrior helicopters flew overhead, Boggs and the rest of the soldiers from 3rd platoon moved block by block under fire from enemy fighters hidden on rooftops and in alleyways.

By late afternoon, his unit had reached a three-story building that offered an excellent view of the city.

The Americans looked down the street from the roof and saw an Iraqi man sprinting for cover, an RPG in his arms. RPGs are devastating in urban fighting and much dreaded. The Americans opened fire and cut him down. The enemy soldier lay dead in the street.

Then, darting out from an alley, came two boys, soldiers with Boggs recounted later. They were no older than 10.

"I got my gun up. I had my sights on it," Boggs said. His machine gun is an especially devastating tool. It spits out 600 rounds a minute. At that range, a few hundred feet, he knew he wouldn't miss. Boggs had his finger on the trigger.

"I didn't shoot. I didn't shoot," he said.

Then one child reached down and grabbed the rocket-propelled grenade.

"That's when I took him out," Boggs said. "I laid down quite a few bursts."

When the smoke cleared, both small boys lay in the street, clearly dead.

During the rest of the fight, Boggs said he was too busy to think about it. Two days later, he had more time.

"Anybody that can shoot a little kid and not have problem with it, there is something wrong with them," he said two days later. He took a drag from his cigarette and went on: "Of course I had a problem with it. After being shot at all day, it didn't matter if you were a soldier or a kid, these RPGs are meant to hurt us."

Bogg's platoon leader, 1st Lt. Jason Davis, said the machine-gunner has no reason to second-guess his decision to open fire.

"He came up to me and said, 'Sir, look what I did.' I told him he did the right thing," said Davis, 25 of Ontario, Ore. "The fact of the matter is, that kid was taking that weapon back to someone who was going to use it on us."

But Davis also acknowledged that Boggs will have a tough time living with the memory.

"Will it hurt him for the rest of his life? Yes," he said. "Will it haunt me? Absolutely."

While Boggs said he was sorry the child was put into that position, he doesn't regret his action.

"I did what I had to do," he said. "There were people shooting RPGs and AK-47s at us."

Boggs said he has already seen enough combat to suit him.

"It's crazy is what it is. You don't know what is going to happen next. It's definitely not very fun," he said. "If we keep going on and have to clear buildings and not shoot any more rounds, I would be fine with that."

Matthew Cox writes for the Army Times, an independent newspaper owned by the Gannett Co.

[Glenn X]

You nailed it, Kurp. War is hell.

Thanks for posting this, sir.

[codeorama]

That sucks. I would hate to be put in that situation. No one can fault the soilder.

[Kilmer17]

The grim reality is exactly that. Iraq is a regime that uses children and civilians as shields and soldiers. While this is a tragedy for both parties, it magnifies the purpose of the conflict.

[Glenn X]

Bingo, Kilmer.

[codeorama]

Remember, alot of it is point of view too.

If the United States were invaded and you had a 10 year old son, wouldn't you agree that he would fight for his life and family?

The problem is that some of the Iraqi's view the US troops as the enemy and they have had their heads filled with the evil things the troops will do to them. Many probably don't believe that they can surrender, I'm sure Saddams people are telling them tales of US troops shooting civilians in cold blood and such.

[Glenn X]

Code, don't succumb to muddy-headed moral relativism. We're not talking about 15-year-old Colonials going off to defend their father's property against crazy old King George's Red Coats. We're talking about kids -- little kids -- who are being brainwashed to go off and defend a fascist regime that hurts their own people, their own fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters, a regime that forces its own people to fight by holding guns to their heads, trying to make them wage war against the "infidels" who would liberate them via the instituting of democracy.

There is no moral equivalency to found here, bro.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Glenn X

Code, don't succumb to muddy-headed moral relativism. We're not talking about 15-year-old Colonials going off to defend their father's property against crazy old King George's Red Coats. We're talking about kids -- little kids -- who are being brainwashed to go off and defend a fascist regime that hurts their own people, their own fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters, a regime that forces its own people to fight by holding guns to their heads, trying to make them wage war against the "infidels" who would liberate them via the instituting of democracy.

There is no moral equivalency to found here, bro.

You just said it yourself... Brainwashed... that was my point.

No where in my post did it say that they were correct in their views, I am only pointing out that IN THEIR BRAINWASHED MINDS, they view what they are doing as defending their home. If they had the same point of view as Americans, would we even be fighting this war?

[riggins44]

Code, my boys are 9 and 11. If the US was invaded I could never

send them into harms way. To me that goes against everything

I've learned about being a parent. My job is to protect them and

give them a better life. Sorry, just can't justify having a child

fight in a war.

[redman]

I have no kids yet, but I wouldn't send my ten-year old out to fight in a war against people invading my country. I wouldn't hide behind unarmed women to get a shot at the enemy. I wouldn't use schools or churches or hospitals as my bases of operations. I wouldn't simply execute unarmed people who I captured.

This is where we are different from the Iraqis. While that American soldier will perhaps never feel this in his heart, the people who killed this boy were the ones who sent him out to retrieve the RPG for them.

They're sadistic and cowardly. I truly believe that there's a special place in hell for people like that.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by riggins44

Code, my boys are 9 and 11. If the US was invaded I could never

send them into harms way. To me that goes against everything

I've learned about being a parent. My job is to protect them and

give them a better life. Sorry, just can't justify having a child

fight in a war.

NO NO NO... Totally misunderstanding my point....

I do not and did not intend to say that we would "officially" send our children to fight for the US army... That's crazy, I didn't intend to mean that. What I mean is if we had the enemy running through our streets, If I had a 10 year old son, he would know how to use a weapon and I would teach him to defend himself and our family. If soldiers were running up and down our streets and we thought they were intent on killing us, what would you do, tell your child to accept getting shot? No, you would teach them to defend themselves...

Sorry if that came across the wrong way..

The ONLY point I am trying to make is that because of the brainwashing, these people think that the US is going to slaughter them all. Of course women and children are going to take up arms. This war is no longer in an Iraqi army vs. US army mode. The Iraqi army is in disarray.

Look at the movie Red Dawn... what did the high school kids do?

Sure it's a movie, but it's a pretty realistic vision of what would happen.

[TheKurp]

Originally posted by redman

I have no kids yet, but I wouldn't send my ten-year old out to fight in a war against people invading my country. I wouldn't hide behind unarmed women to get a shot at the enemy. I wouldn't use schools or churches or hospitals as my bases of operations. I wouldn't simply execute unarmed people who I captured.

Therein lies the underlying and crucial problem the U.S. faces after the war.

Rarely do people develop their morals and beliefs in a vacuum. Centuries of events have conspired to shape the actions of Iraqis and Middle Eastern people in general.

As Redman and Riggins stated, they wouldn't even entertain the thought of sending their pre-teen children out to fight a war, regardless of the stakes. I imagine that most parents, if given the power, wouldn't allow their children of any age to fight in wars. For many cultures the personal price of sacrificing children in wars is just too high.

For the U.S. to succeed in establishing a friendly and peaceful Middle East, cultural diversity will have to be a skill that is learned and applied in all matters of diplomacy and relations with the people of these countries. Those in charge of directing the fate of the Iraqi people from this point forward should be ever mindful of what makes them tick.

[redman]

Kurp-

I agree with you (I think) if you are arguing against the PC-inspired notion that all cultures and their values are equal on the moral level. They quite simply are not.

If it is indeed a part of the Arab culture to send their children out to fight in wars such as this one, then I believe it can be rightfully said that that is both a despicable and an inferior trait of Arab culture in comparison with our own. The same can be said about a variety of other things such as the way they treat women, their value of truth in their media, their willingness to tolerate racism and to deny basic human rights, and many other things. Our own culture of course has its own problems in comparison with theirs.

The dirty truth is that however rich and distinguished their culture is (and it is both), the fact is that there is no comparison between their culture and ours when it comes to the protection and preservation of innocent human life. You don't look to them for guidance on civil rights, for example.

Only when they learn the importance of such things will we have enough common ground to work together in the world. Otherwise, al Qaeda and other despicable Arab organizations will continue to have a fertile breeding ground for hatred of all things American.

[TheKurp]

Redman,

You're stating the "how", the morality of which I don't dispute.

I'm just pointing out the "why", the understanding of which will be imperative before we can get the Iraqi people to accept a moral ground closer to ours.

[mardi gras skin]

Originally posted by The Codeman

Remember, alot of it is point of view too.

If the United States were invaded and you had a 10 year old son, wouldn't you agree that he would fight for his life and family?

These two boys weren't handed guns and told to protect their moms or sisters. They were sent into the middle of a fire fight to retreive an RPG from a dead soldier because their lives were deemed less valuable than the weapon.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by mardi gras skin

These two boys weren't handed guns and told to protect their moms or sisters. They were sent into the middle of a fire fight to retreive an RPG from a dead soldier because their lives were deemed less valuable than the weapon.

Seeing as neither of us were actually there, it's hard to prove one way or another.

What if these kids parents were killed? What if they decided to take part? There are so many what if's, we will never know the truth, but I can say that when I was 10, I was a pretty decent marksman and If I was put into that situation, I would fight. Like I said in my earlier post, the whole basis of the movie Red Dawn surrounds that issue. If you haven't seen it, watch it.

If your premise is that the Iraqi's abduct the children and force them to fight, than of course that is wrong for them to do that. But that's not what I was commenting on.

[mardi gras skin]

Keith Garvin, reporting live for WTVD early Thursday morning, said intelligence reports indicated 2,000 Iraqi troops were advancing on the camp, and a two-hour fight with missiles and artillery ensued, augmented by aerial bombing.

Garvin said some Iraqi fighters were using women as shields and had given guns to children.

"Unfortunately, some of the children have been firing at our Marines and our Marines have been forced to defend themselves," he said.

During a Central Command briefing Thursday, Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks accused the Iraqis of increasingly flagrant violations of international conventions. Iraqi security forces were seizing children in order to force their fathers to join the military, and were executing men who resisted, he said.

"They have executed prisoners of war ... They have used women and children as human shields and they have pretended to surrender and then opened fire," the Pentagon's No. 2 general, Marine Gen. Peter Pace, said. "I've never seen anything like this. It's disgusting."

We don't know about these two specific kids, Code, but we do know that they hand their kids guns, not to protect the house, but to be thrust into harms way. They put the kids and women in front. We know that, and we know kids are being killed needlessly because of it.

Comparisons to the lonely group of teenagers in Red Dawn, fighting when they were all that was left, is a mighty stretch. Don't romanticize what is being done to children in Iraq.

[codeorama]

Marti gras..

I agree with where you are coming from, if they are putting in the army, that's wrong, I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

But that was not my point. Based on what I've seen in the news, there isn't an Iraqi army any more. There are Iraqi's that are forming resistance groups, that's quite a bit different that army batallions getting ready for war.