GM- We don't need no stinkin' GM!

[Koolblue13]

I like the players we have and I like having an agressive owner.

[Beer is Food]

I love it. Just ramble for five or six paragraphs so that people will fall asleep before they can figure out your point.

I don't think 5 or 6 paragraphs are too much to ask the reader for starting a thread. Maybe next time I'll use bullet form for you. Or, even better, I think they still sell those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. You could practice with them, and over time- maybe you could build up your attention span to follow more than 90 words.

[Beer is Food]

Guys, this is Washington DC where we all know there is no accountability.

LOL! So true...

[TWINSKINS]

What gets me is pre-draft, both la-confera's wash. post blog and either sporting news or p.f.w. suggested changes to personnel i.e. bye bye vinnie were to happen.

Chicago's bobby depaul was available after may yet nothing has happened.

Guess another rumor with no substance again.

[Beer is Food]

Did you watch the 2006 season? We were absolutely disgraceful. No better than when he got here.

Yes we stepped it up in 2005 and made it to the playoffs but we regressed [understatement] last year and a lot of it had to do with ****ty personnel moves. In fact, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the 2006 Redskins had THE WORST offseason / in-season (the Duckett debacle) moves in the HISTORY of the NFL.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Yes- the skins sucked last year. I blame the losing season more on- installing a new offense, necessary QB change, and many injuries to a team that lacked depth, than I do on bad personell moves.

The team is much better off now than in 2004. Now, we have most of the players on board. There is no need to overhaul the team, just tweak a couple of positions. Also, there is stability with the same offense/defense systems.

The expectations were sky high- so we, the fans, felt more of the sting when we lost. The organization is in a much better place.

[Beer is Food]

OK, Beer, I'll bite.

1. Joe Gibbs is the team president. His stated mission was to re-build the Washington Redskins as a winning organization. The owner's public statement is that all football decisions are made by Joe Gibbs. If the team has an incompetent player personnel group, it's Gibbs job to fix it, or convince the owner that it needs to be fixed. That's why he gets paid $5 million per year. You say "personnel department" like you are talking about Wal-Mart. This is a sports team. Players are the assets, the crown jewels, the most valuable part of the team. The skill at picking those players is more critical than coaching. Picking a GM is the first thing the owner & president must do. You are making Gibbs out to be a punk figurehead. You can't mean that.

2. See the part in #1 about it's Gibbs job to convince the owner . . . .

3. Yes, the organization is better, but as you said, the bottom line is wins. If you are not winning, your organization is not good enough no matter what improvements they've made.

4. Uuugh, WHAT? Your first three points were that Gibbs is not responsible because he's not in control. Then you say in #4 ". . . because as we know Gibbs has total control." Let me quote Joe Gibbs from numerous occasions in 2006 -- "It all falls on me."

In 2006, Gibbs and the Redskins pulled out all the stops to get over the top. They went to excess, from dumb trades (B. Lloyd), to over-the-top free agent signings (Archuleta, Randle El), to new coaches (Saunders, Grey), to undervaluing key role players (Clark). The whole history of the Snyder era, and of Gibbs' decisions of 2006, is wretched excess. Combined with key injuries early, and there was no way the Redskins could live up to the hype. We were all too blind to see it then.

For the record, I am a Gibbs fan. I expect the team to be better. I think our younger players (Campbell, McIntosh, Golston, Rogers) will come through. However, I don't believe the Redskins will contend annually until the owner picks a legit GM to build the team with / for Gibbs.

Thank you Master4Caster...

No, I don't think Gibbs is a punk figure head. In fact, as a life long skins fan, I hold Gibbs up as a football God.

My post was half in jest... With that said- it reflects my view of the Redskins organization.

At this juncture in Gibbs tenure, bringing in a new GM with total control will usurp Gibbs authority- and hurt more than it will help. I don't see Gibbs as a GM, I see him as a leader. For that matter, I don't think Gibbs see's himself as a GM. With that said his decisions are based on evaluations from personell professionals. Furthermore, Gibbs has encouraged an agressive style that maximizes accountabilty. By doing so, he can credit or punish those responsible. So when mistakes are made- I look to see if the mistake were strategic (Gibbs fault) or in the evaluation. So far, the mistakes can be blamed on the evaluation- falling directly onto scouts and Cerrato. A new personell chief will fix this, and there would be no need to make a drastic change in structure with a new GM.

If this is the case, you can then blame Gibbs for not making changes in the FO. And, I agree. My point is in order for Gibbs to make changes- he has have the power to make a change. He also has to believe mistakes warrant a change. Regardless of what the Redskins say, I'm not sure he has total control- especially when it comes to making changes in the FO. With that said, according to Gibbs job description upon hire, he would have total control, thus he shouldn't have to convince the owner.

For that matter, Gibbs may not see it necessary to make changes in the FO. As I mentioned before- the Skins have drastically improved since Gibbs took over. The Redskins prior to Gibbs II were embarrising. Granted the record may reflect improvement, but is still lack luster. I expect the record to reflect positive change this year.

My last point, which states that you can't blame Snyder or Cerrato for any problems because Gibbs has total control, is meant to highlight the ironic lack of accountabilty at top of the Redskins organization. The fact is there is no clear cut leader in the organization that has total control. So when things do not go as planned, you tend to get into this circular argument. Gibbs takes the blame, but the media will blame Snyder because there is evidence (Briggs Trade Talks) that he does get involved in strategy and evaluation decisions. It gets messy.

[angel2]

I have said this many times on this forum: FORGET IT AS LONG AS DAN SNYDER OWNS THIS TEAM, THE SKINS WILL NEVER HAVE A GM.

GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON, PLEASE.

[Horatio]

It's a strategy that looks good on paper but it hasn't worked buddy. Where has it brought us? One playoff game. A GM got us 3 superbowls, 4 NFC championships and a winning season almost every season for 12 years.

Exactly! Just because Gibbs is/was a great coach doesn't mean he knows anything about actually picking talent or signing them. How good did Parcells do when he had GM/coach duties? Zero playoff wins.

The fact is, it's too much for one guy to do by himself. But the problem here is that no one really seems to know who has the ultimate authority for signing players...

[chiplohmillers#1]

First of all

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You have got to be kidding me. We havent made any sort of sound decision since 1999. And since then we have one play off appearance. Our front office might be the second worst in the league (following the Bills). Lloyd, Sanders, Carrier, Archuletta, Spurrier, Jeff George, Tony Banks, Trung Candidate.

Now with the players we lost.

Antonio Pierce, Champ Bailey, Trent Green, Stephen Davis.

Granted they have a couple nice moves. Drafting Chris Cooley was a good move, letting Daryl Gardner go was a good move. But overall they have been garbage.

[Beer is Food]

Exactly! Just because Gibbs is/was a great coach doesn't mean he knows anything about actually picking talent or signing them. How good did Parcells do when he had GM/coach duties? Zero playoff wins.

The fact is, it's too much for one guy to do by himself. But the problem here is that no one really seems to know who has the ultimate authority for signing players...

I covered this... Gibbs is not a GM and doesn't have to be to oversee the department and make final decisions. He relies on his staff's input, and makes the final call based upon what's presented to him. And, I don't think Parcells is such a great example. He's a great coach and team builder. He led the Jets deep into the playoffs and led Dallas back to the playoffs twice. And, Dallas wasn't in such great shape when he took over. I think he has problems burning out after a few years with a team.

And, Gibbs has added responsibilty. He also has relinquished his responsibilty. Gibbs no longer calls the plays, and brought in an Offensive Coordinator.

[Bigredskin77]

First of all

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You have got to be kidding me. We havent made any sort of sound decision since 1999. And since then we have one play off appearance. Our front office might be the second worst in the league (following the Bills). Lloyd, Sanders, Carrier, Archuletta, Spurrier, Jeff George, Tony Banks, Trung Candidate.

Now with the players we lost.

Antonio Pierce, Champ Bailey, Trent Green, Stephen Davis.

Granted they have a couple nice moves. Drafting Chris Cooley was a good move, letting Daryl Gardner go was a good move. But overall they have been garbage.

Oh man dont bring up Deon's name please. His sorryness when he came here confirms he was not better then darrel green . Darrel Green never played that poorly in his entire career. Makes me sick every time i here about that :puke: . Tony Banks name should be replaced with trotter and armstead :doh: . Tony Banks did produce here when Schotteinheimer was here. Trung Candidate and Mark Carrier . Im just so sick after hearing those names.

[Beer is Food]

First of all

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You have got to be kidding me. We havent made any sort of sound decision since 1999. And since then we have one play off appearance. Our front office might be the second worst in the league (following the Bills). Lloyd, Sanders, Carrier, Archuletta, Spurrier, Jeff George, Tony Banks, Trung Candidate.

Now with the players we lost.

Antonio Pierce, Champ Bailey, Trent Green, Stephen Davis.

Granted they have a couple nice moves. Drafting Chris Cooley was a good move, letting Daryl Gardner go was a good move. But overall they have been garbage.

LOL! Hey man... Don't hold back- tell me how you really feel. And, I have a hard enough time defending Gibbs II tenure, I don't intend go back further...

Edit: Let me add- I never intended to defend Cerrato. I don't see him as a GM. With that said, Cerrato does get more criticism than he deserves. Not saying he doesn't deserve it... With each new regime, Cerrato has to rebuild to find players that fit that system. So players that would work for the old ball coach, wouldn't be worth Gibbs consideration.

[chiplohmillers#1]

Trotter theres another mistake. We sign him for big time free agent money. Have an LB corps of Trotter Arrington Armstead. Cut trotter who then goes on to have 2 more pro bowl seasons with the eagles.

[Beer is Food]

Trotter theres another mistake. We sign him for big time free agent money. Have an LB corps of Trotter Arrington Armstead. Cut trotter who then goes on to have 2 more pro bowl seasons with the eagles.

Did you just look at the title of the thread, and then respond? It doesn't sound like you've read the post?

[chiplohmillers#1]

Yes I read your post. And Furthermore yes we need a GM. This parlamentary approach to decision making has got to end. A GM's job is to evaluate and make the decision based on what he ultimatley feels is in the teams best interest. Who takes responsibility for the current failures of the franchise? Cerrato? Gibbs? We all know the media puts it on Snyder (justifyibly) At the end of the day the responsibility has to lie with one person not a collective we.

So the statement "We dont need no Stinkin GM" is wrong. Whats happening is not refreshing. Instead of learning from our mistakes we have proven to be the biggest joke in pro football.

[Beer is Food]

Yes I read your post. And Furthermore yes we need a GM. This parlamentary approach to decision making has got to end. A GM's job is to evaluate and make the decision based on what he ultimatley feels is in the teams best interest. Who takes responsibility for the current failures of the franchise? Cerrato? Gibbs? We all know the media puts it on Snyder (justifyibly) At the end of the day the responsibility has to lie with one person not a collective we.

So the statement "We dont need no Stinkin GM" is wrong. Whats happening is not refreshing. Instead of learning from our mistakes we have proven to be the biggest joke in pro football.

The parlimentry approach to decision making has to end. I couldn't agree with you more. And, as I mentioned earlier bringing in a GM to usurp Gibbs authority won't solve this problem. It will exasperate it. After Gibbs leaves, then a good GM is necessary. Furthermore, replacing Cerrato now may be necessary. My point is that the "structure" of the Skins has Gibbs as the person with total control. I suspect we both don't believe this is reality. I see no need to bring in a new GM to oversee Gibbs at this point in his regime because you would be undermining his authority. I have no problem replacing Cerrato, with another personnell chief.

With the seeming lack of clear leadership now, I think Gibbs is our best bet to steer the ship. I think we both suspect Snyder and his "yes man" Cerrato have more influence on Gibbs decisions than we would like. However, Gibbs overall aggresive strategy has moved the organization forward. In fact, it has shined a spotlight on FO mistakes. We are much better off now than we were prior to Gibbs arrival. And, I expect much bigger things next year. Usurping Gibbs authority by bringing in a new GM will derail that progress.

After reading your post... I don't think our viewpoints are that far apart.

[Chief skin]

The record of this front office/ownership speaks for itself. Some on this board deny it and make excuses for it but, the bottom line is season in and season out we produce losing records. Snyder, Cerrato have led this once proud franchise right into the toilet.

[Beer is Food]

The record of this front office/ownership speaks for itself. Some on this board deny it and make excuses for it but, the bottom line is season in and season out we produce losing records. Snyder, Cerrato have led this once proud franchise right into the toilet.

I agree for the most part- except I think Gibbs II has helped build the framwork to ressurect the franchise. And, for that matter- I still crossed both Cerrato and Snyder off my Christmas card list. I do send Snyder a 12 year old fruit cake, but I send a heavily inflated bill to one his subsidiaries.

Do you think the teams improved since Gibbs II? And, do you think bringing in a GM to oversee Gibbs will solve any problems? Keep in mind I don't consider replacing Cerrato the same thing as hiring a new GM. The distinction being a GM would have the final say on all personell decisions and above or equall Gibbs in stature.

[Beer is Food]

Can someone tell me if any other teams employ this model for selecting players in the draft and in free agency:

We start with our roster and then we look at the guys available and we say, hmmm I think maybe Arch would be a good replacement at Safety, go get em!

Gibbs revealed how the Redskins evaluate potential draft picks, giving each one a "Redskins grade." What makes the Redskins' evaluation system any different than that of every other team in the NFL? Not a damn thing, from the sound of things. Except that I guess the other teams don't give their prospects a Redskins grade. Or if they do, it isn't meant as a compliment. As in, "Well, he's not good enough to play for us. But he'd probably have a Redskins grade of B+."

Source: http://thedcuniverse.blogspot.com/search/label/Sports

Forgive my ignorance, maybe this is the way it works but I recall an article awhile back that said this is how the selection process works in Washington. I'd like to see how a team like the Steelers draft players because I'm willing to bet its quite a bit different than this model.

Furthermore, Vinny sucks. He was run out of town in SF because he built a team with no depth and a bunch of high priced free agents. Sound familiar?

In today's salary-cap-driven NFL, the 49ers can't solve a problem simply by throwing money at it, which is how they used to operate. "Our approach--our theory in managing this club--will not be one of mortgaging the club for the future," says Walsh. "We are going to be a solvent organization, where the team represents the true nature of the salary cap and our crop of players."

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCL/is_2_30/ai_65091432

In HIS own words how players are selected:

Cerrato said the Redskins' chain of command is a top-down affair, beginning with Joe Gibbs ("I can't imagine working for a better guy," he said). "We all have a say, but he has the final say. We usually come to a decision and he and I take the decision to Dan and talk to him about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081002181_2.html

Someone please tell me why the **** dan synder is involved. If he is, the only questions should be, how much money will this cost?

While Cerrato and his staff picked players mainly by reviewing tape, Donahue uses a more complex and somewhat controversial system

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/24/SPG0AAGTP61.DTL

"Every move we make is done looking three years down the road," said Vinny Cerrato, Washington's vice president of football operations. "When we sign a free agent we know exactly how it's going to affect us and how it will count against the salary cap, and we're not going to do something that will put us in salary-cap jail or salary-cap hell."

Good post. Sorry I missed it. Again- I'm making distinction between Cerratto as being in charge of the personnel department reporting to Gibbs, and a GM who would report to Snyder and trump Gibbs when it came to personnel decisions.

Since Gibbs took over, I don't think Cerrato has sucked. I'm not a big fan of his. The team may be better with out him. But, since Gibbs II, Cerrato has helped overhaul the entire roster, and the Skins made the playoffs. Last year the team had little depth and injury problems, and just flailed on Duckett and Archuletta... ok he does suck.

My point is bringing in a GM, and taking away Gibbs "total control" would be a mistake. Especially since there are question marks already in the chain of command. Adding another figure would muddy the waters even more.

Gibbs aggressive approach to the draft and FA is the correct strategy and has worked. When you are aggressive, and overpay in dollars and draft picks and make a mistake- there is no hiding.

Anyway... Kick ass and come home.

[Beer is Food]

PWNED!

PWNED! What the hell does that mean? I take it like that post just OWNED me... In which case let me say Thanks Dude! Let me know which McDonald's you work at so I can avoid the spit in my quarterpounder.

[dez4theskins]

I agree with his assesment of the Gibbs era. He brought in more talent than Norval, Shottenheimer, and Spurrier. Norval could not judge talent at all (Heath Shuler, Michael Westbrook) and brought in all those former washed up cowboy players who drained the salary cap back then (Washington, Brownlow, and Harper). When Dan took over that year he wanted to draft Culpepper instead of bringing in Brad Johnson. That would have saved the revolving door at quarterback. Norval wanted Johnson and gave up on Trent Green and Ferrotte.

During the Shottenheimer regime, Dan wanted Santana Moss and Marty decided 50/50 (Gardner) was the better reciever. Can we do a where are they now segment on Gardner. If we had drafted Moss we wouldnt have given up our number one draft pick for Coles. Shottenheimer did clean up the cap for us that year so that we could go after some talent and he did draft Smoot but other than Darrien Mcant practice no talent was brought in.

During the Spurrier years too many gators were brought in ( Jacquez Green, Wurfel, Doering, Taylor Jacobs, and Reidel Anthony). Dan did bring in some talent those years (Coles, Randy Thomas, Morton, Trotter, and Renaldo Wynn). Dan drafted Ramsey, Cartwright, Betts, Royal, Lott, Dockery, and Bauman (who recieved the comeback award for the bengals). You could also add Samuels and Arrington but that was under Norval years. But Spurrier couldn't adjust to the Nfl work load and player management. The defense had pieces but the offense was a mess. Champ Bailey was tired of the revolving door and players wanted stability. When Marvin Lewis was there the team had the structure they needed but when he was hired to become the bengals coach Spurrier was exposed. The real problem was Dan hired the wrong coach that year. He should have hired Marvin (then again we wouldn't have Gibbs).

When Gibbs came in he walked into a firestorm with Bailey and did his best to bring in the beast talent. Although he did give up a second round pick in addition to Bailey for Portis I did like the move. Betts was not a proven player at that point. He had fumbling and injury issues and still continues to fumble alot today. Gibbs brought in Dainels, Griffin, Washington, Springs, and Brunell that first year. Drafted Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley. That was a major up grade in one year. The second year he traded for Moss after the Coles fiasco, signed free agent Rabach and drafted Jason Campbell and Carlos Rogers a playoff year. The third year he brought in Randle El, Lloyd, Adam, Carter and drafted Golston, Montgomery, and Rocky with two others still on the roster. This year you bring back Smoot (who we should have never let him go) and sign Macklin, Butler, Fletcher-Baker, and draft Sartz, Palmer, Landry, and Blades. The Gibbs-Dan era has more talent on it than any era between Gibbs I and II. Gibbs has made mistakes just like any other coach/gm (letting Smoot, Pierce, and Clark go and Not resigning Dockery two years ago when he was a restricted free agent). Gibbs also took a little long in benching Brunell. Every year they say we will have to dump players because of the cap and every year we prove them wrong. Dan does a good job of getting the players Joe wants and pays them accordingly. Look at the salaries given out this year and you can see we got some bargains last year. They just have to pan out. Dockery was paid probowl money for being the fourth best on his team. I didnt want to see him go but bye bye. We now have back up Quarterback competition with young guys. Years before we had help wanted signs. Runnig back, saftey, cornerback, linebacker, and reciever depth. Next years draft we should focus on defensive and offensive line depth. It takes time to build a team from no talent to a contender. The Patriots were lucky to find Brady. All 32 teams passed on him 192 times. How many GM's passed on him compared to coach /gm's.

[Smoot Point Really]

While I believe we need a GM, because we need someone Dan Snyder can fire when things don't go well.... I believe there is one clear argument to be made against having a GM:

GMs are not a guarantee for success... As many historically bad teams have GMs as good teams have GMs. If this isn't a good argument, then I offer the ultimate trump card: Matt Millen.

[chiplohmillers#1]

Good post. Sorry I missed it. Again- I'm making distinction between Cerratto as being in charge of the personnel department reporting to Gibbs, and a GM who would report to Snyder and trump Gibbs when it came to personnel decisions.

Since Gibbs took over, I don't think Cerrato has sucked. I'm not a big fan of his. The team may be better with out him. But, since Gibbs II, Cerrato has helped overhaul the entire roster, and the Skins made the playoffs. Last year the team had little depth and injury problems, and just flailed on Duckett and Archuletta... ok he does suck.

My point is bringing in a GM, and taking away Gibbs "total control" would be a mistake. Especially since there are question marks already in the chain of command. Adding another figure would muddy the waters even more.

Gibbs aggressive approach to the draft and FA is the correct strategy and has worked. When you are aggressive, and overpay in dollars and draft picks and make a mistake- there is no hiding.

Anyway... Kick ass and come home.

I disagree completely. Total control of the franchise only works if you breathe, eat, drink and s*** football. Truly successful coaches with total conrol i.e. Billechek and Parcells have such a skewed work life balance that their wives left them. I think that Gibbs sees the bigger picture, and that for him its God, Family, NASCAR/Football. Which is fine if your just the head coach but thats a formula for failure when you wear the total control hat.

The lions werent dumb for hiring Millen, they were idiots for keeping him. If a GM fails fire him then get another one.

[Beer is Food]

I disagree completely. Total control of the franchise only works if you breathe, eat, drink and s*** football. Truly successful coaches with total conrol i.e. Billechek and Parcells have such a skewed work life balance that their wives left them. I think that Gibbs sees the bigger picture, and that for him its God, Family, NASCAR/Football. Which is fine if your just the head coach but thats a formula for failure when you wear the total control hat.

The lions werent dumb for hiring Millen, they were idiots for keeping him. If a GM fails fire him then get another one.

Gibbs doesn't have to leave his wife to have good work ethic. And, Gibbs is known to be one of those "put in the insane hours" guys. For that matter Gibbs did add responsibilty in overseeing the personnel department, but he also relinquished responsibilty by handing control of the offense to Saunders.

And, you think Gibbs puts the same amount of time in NASCAR as the NFL? C'mon!

More importantly- Gibbs is not a GM. There is no GM. There is Cerrato who has all the responsibilty of personnel and reports to Gibbs. Cerrato has a staff report to him. Gibbs uses Cerrato's input to make the final say. If the Skins hire a GM, the GM would take Cerrato's responsibilities and either report to directly Snyder and have equall standing to Gibbs, or Gibbs would be under the GM. Either way- Gibbs would have less say, and Snyder would have more say.

[chiplohmillers#1]

Gibbs walked away the first time because of the time committment. His health deteriorated and he didnt have any family time. He's not putting in the hours that he was before. I believe that you need to find a GM that has a good eye for talent and understands todays players, but more importantly can get along with Gibbs and work with Gibbs.

Obviously his total control has failed miserably. Look at last years draft. We sold the farm to acquire Rocky McIntosh and then didnt play him. We gave up a 3rd round pick to acquire T.J. Duckett and then wouldnt use him. These descisions were not well thought out and were made on a whim. You need someone that can serve as a intermediary between the owner and the Coach. Right now we have an owner that will buy anything the coach wants. This is a double edged sword because obviously buying talent will get you an 8-8 record. In this league you need to build talent.