KC Joyner- Dallas safety metrics in his chat 7-5

[Riggo#44]

Well, here is this Poke fan's opinion for you guys to have fun with. (Give TonyRomoProBowl a short break.)

Here is the way I see it...

Most agree that Hamlin is an upgrade from what Dallas had last year. Henry played injured all of last year but is healthy now. I don't have any metrics to look at, but from watching the games his first year with Dallas I thought he was pretty good so we're in better shape at CB.

The return of Ellis and/or the addition of Spencer opposite Ware, along with a more attacking style of defense should help the secondary out by reducing the amount of time QB's have.

We'll see how it goes when the games start.

TheFan

Oh yes Henry was "hurt." And that will fix your CB problems. Nevermind Springs missed 8 games. But his return won't help in the least bit.

Hoping for health is an improvment in Dallas, but wishful thinking in Washington. Interesting.

[dfos81]

yeah

like you I only posted the relevant part to your twisted logic...

Funny how in last years book He had ST rated #1 in success rate, and in the top 8 in two of his three top metrics for coverage safeties...... I guess that is bad in your book.. :laugh: but compared to the Pokes unholy trio it is all world :rotflmao:

now tell us all, how is that relevant to the fact that Roy Williams sucks, BOTTOM 10 sucks?

or how does it change the fact that Watkins was so bad that Hamlin could only go to Dallas to be considered an upgrade ... but in no way the cure all for the pokes keep trying to make him to be?

oh, you can't because it is only childish avoidance.... cover those eyes and ears... don't admit the poke secondary stinks..... and all the troubles will just go away :laugh:

Smoot? now you are just reaching... you really are desperate to change the subject :no:

(insert NO EVIL MONKEYS pic here)

again this is a poke thread, the ST discussion is in the stadium, that I started and included quotes in full about Taylor from the chat in the thread as well

:puke: fans can't handle the truth, so they twist into an argument that they still get :owned: on :laugh:

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Yes a slight upgrade...but somehow they'll be better then the Redskins still?

i dont know, they were better last season so we will just have to wait n see......i am just dying to know what it is that the Skins did, that makes them so much better on defense. I like the Fletcher pick up and Smoot is better then what you had at nickle (which is not hard to do IE: Watkins/Hamlin) but what else is it, that has you guys all jacked up for 2007? Springs may not be healthy (always an issue) Rogers was a huge disapointment and a very bad starting corner.....Daniels cant play, and Carter may not show up till week 12 again. Now LL is a future beast in this league, but how long till he plays, how will he adjust, will there be rookie growing pains?

[dfos81]

i dont know, they were better last season so we will just have to wait n see......i am just dying to know what it is that the Skins did, that makes them so much better on defense. I like the Fletcher pick up and Smoot is better then what you had at nickle (which is not hard to do IE: Watkins/Hamlin) but what else is it, that has you guys all jacked up for 2007? Springs may not be healthy (always an issue) Rogers was a huge disapointment and a very bad starting corner.....Daniels cant play, and Carter may not show up till week 12 again. Now LL is a future beast in this league, but how long till he plays, how will he adjust, will there be rookie growing pains?

Isn't this thread about Cowpatties secondary, why are we still discussing our(Skins) improvments. We already know we drafted the BEST safety available in the draft and added some proven leaders to our D. What does that have to do w/ Dallas's secondary?

[TheFan]

Oh yes Henry was "hurt." And that will fix your CB problems. Nevermind Springs missed 8 games. But his return won't help in the least bit.

Hoping for health is an improvment in Dallas, but wishful thinking in Washington. Interesting.

:laugh:

Stop being so sensitive Riggo. Read my post again and you'll note that I said nothing in this thread about the Skin's defense at all. If you take the time to do some research, you might also discover that I never said anything about recovery being wishful thinking for the Skins.

TheFan

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Better pass defense, yes.

And by the way, apparently you missed this one, but Miami has 8 total interceptions. And had the #5 pass D. So, I guess you can hang your hat on that on if you like...

making my point for me...they also had the 3rd most sacks (47) and were #3 overall in comp. % against.....

all that from a good defense that had crap for a secondary.........think about it, there secondary was not good at all (we can all agree to that cant we) yet they can do that well vs the pass....why? pass rush and pressure! Something i dont expect you to know about, considering you hardly saw any of it last season....and from the loos of this offseason, will not see much more of it in 2007!

[Riggo#44]

i dont know, they were better last season so we will just have to wait n see......i am just dying to know what it is that the Skins did, that makes them so much better on defense. I like the Fletcher pick up and Smoot is better then what you had at nickle (which is not hard to do IE: Watkins/Hamlin) but what else is it, that has you guys all jacked up for 2007? Springs may not be healthy (always an issue) Rogers was a huge disapointment and a very bad starting corner.....Daniels cant play, and Carter may not show up till week 12 again. Now LL is a future beast in this league, but how long till he plays, how will he adjust, will there be rookie growing pains?

Well Landry as a rookie is significantly better than AA - I don't care what anyone else has to say about that one. But yes, there will be growing pains there.

It's well known Williams had to adjust his defense and what he wanted to do to cover for lack of talent in the 2ndary. The talent has been increased, so ideally, Williams can do more of what he wants.

One of the moves that I think is really overlooked is the Butler signing. Even Fat Lenny P had praises for that one - so you know there is potential there if he's praising the Skins for anything. He could be the steal of the offseason.

Rogers is going into his 3rd year. So there's room for growth and hope that he'll improve. He's been working with Darrell Green. We'll see there. If not I am more than confident in Smoot's ability to step up. Newman had a horrid second year too, remember? He developed ok.

(Although, I am still confused by your praise for Henry and downplaying Smoot, even though you said they are about equal, and Henry is your 2nd CB, Smoot our nickle.)

There is no way both teams are going to have the same luck with injuries - it seemed like everyone was hurt on the Redskins and no one was hurt on Dallas. Marcus Washington is healthy again. Fletcher is a monster in the middle. And the only player to get more praise from the coaching staff than McIntosh is Campbell. He's bound to be a singificant upgrade over Holdman - again - no one is going to change my mind about that one.

We'll see what Carter does this year - I am excited based on what he did down the stretch last year. 10 sacks is not out of the question. Not to mention with more talent in the secondary, Williams can bring more blitzes.

I like Golston and Griffin - and add Montgomery who has also shown improvement. I like those three DTs. I am not ecstatic about our D-line, but the D-line has never been anything special under Williams. I don't know really what we have in Carter yet - the common thought around here is he re-adjusted to putting his hand on the ground, and get used to Williams defense. We shall see there. Daniels is done - that's one of the spots that I just have no hope for. I expect Demetric Evans to take his spot sooner rather than later.

So what esle do you have other than "a more attacking style" and "Ken Hamlin." Perhaps the reason Parcells didn't attack much was the secondary was so bad. Kinda like the reason Williams had to call of the dogs last year, so to speak.

[Riggo#44]

making my point for me...they also had the 3rd most sacks (47) and were #3 overall in comp. % against.....

So Dallas is going to jump from the bottom of the league to the top b/c of a "new defensive system" and "Ken Hamlin"? Whatever dude.

all that from a good defense that had crap for a secondary.........think about it, there secondary was not good at all (we can all agree to that cant we) yet they can do that well vs the pass....why? pass rush and pressure! Something i dont expect you to know about, considering you hardly saw any of it last season....and from the loos of this offseason, will not see much more of it in 2007!

Yeah, you're probably right, b/c we have no d-line...oh wait...neither does Dallas. Andre Carter had almost twice the sacks last year as Canty and Spears have in their careers. So all of a sudden they are going to "bring pressure?"

The more you post the more you show how little you know. '04 and '05 had the same production from the D-line as '06. So keep harping on the d-line. Thats a fact.

So again, other than wishful thinking, what are you basing this on?

[ouvan59]

making my point for me...they also had the 3rd most sacks (47) and were #3 overall in comp. % against.....

all that from a good defense that had crap for a secondary.........think about it, there secondary was not good at all (we can all agree to that cant we) yet they can do that well vs the pass....why? pass rush and pressure! Something i dont expect you to know about, considering you hardly saw any of it last season....and from the loos of this offseason, will not see much more of it in 2007!

It's not a linear science. A great pass rush can make up for a below average secondary but the opposite can also be true. A very good secondary can make up for a below average pass rush. We haven't had a great pass rush in God knows how many years but somehow we had a very good pass defense in 2004 and 2005. How is that possible? We were very good in coverage which allowed us to put pressure on the QB from other sources like blitzing because we were able to maintain coverage for a count longer. The problem we had last year was that we had neither. It has been pointed out countless times that our D-line has been pretty consistent in its sack totals the last three years. The difference has been sacks from linebackers and the secondary suffered a huge dropoff last year.

[jrockster21]

Jesus Christ...if I hear one more person talk about ST's coverage issues, I might just go insane.

One more time, for the record:

DEFENSE IS A TEAM ACTIVITY. IF THE ENTIRE DEFENSE STRUGGLES, INDIVIDUAL PLAY WILL STRUGGLE.

****ing A. On days the defense came to play, like against Carolina and New Orleans, ST had fantastic games. And besides some missed tackles, he played reasonably well the rest of the season. He was on a POOR defense, people. He was asked to do everything.

I only hope opposing team coaches are as stupid as some of the people on this board - ST's gonna get a lot of picks with some *gasp* decent CB and SS play around him.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

So Dallas is going to jump from the bottom of the league to the top b/c of a "new defensive system" and "Ken Hamlin"? Whatever dude.

Yeah, you're probably right, b/c we have no d-line...oh wait...neither does Dallas. Andre Carter had almost twice the sacks last year as Canty and Spears have in their careers. So all of a sudden they are going to "bring pressure?"

The more you post the more you show how little you know. '04 and '05 had the same production from the D-line as '06. So keep harping on the d-line. Thats a fact.

So again, other than wishful thinking, what are you basing this on?

ok, number one, i never said that the Cowboys will be anywhere near the top in defensive rankings especially the pass D...you are making things up now!

number two, to compare Carter to either Spears or Canty shows your complete lack of awarness of either Def. and their player personel responsibilities....this last post by you Riggo, shows me what a waste of time it truly is to debate with you...like i said...your a goofball!

[Kurd Cudins]

I was playing off of the fact that someone said it would make more sense to put ST in the box and leave LL in the coverage spot.......i was just saying, no matter how good that would work, its not going to happen...someone in Washington thinks, ST is a coverage Safety, and i for one am glad of it...leave him there by all means...just leave him there......Ballhawk Taylor! :laugh:

So, you think you are smarter than Gregg Williams, huh? Because that's who thinks he's a coverage safety. Last year his stats reflect what was going on in the secondary. His solo tackles rose from 61,62 his first two years, to 83 last year. Totals went from 78,72 to 114. His coverage suffered because of the failures of others and the fact that HE had to account for those mistakes. His first year he displayed his "ballhawking" abilities when, as a rookie, he had four interceptions and 15 passes defended. Unfortunately, he has been unable to match that success because he has had to focus on the line of scrimmage/run game. It has put him in position to make tackles and provide run support, but taken out of position for making plays in the secondary/deep balls. His recent weight loss coupled with his natural ability should have his production up. As well, I expect GW to refous Taylor to exploit his ability to cover more field than any other safety in the game. He IS every bit a ballhawk he just hasn't been ballhawking. With the athletic, sure-tackling McIntosh moving in to WLB, Fletcher stopping up the front and Landry providing a much more athletic and competent SS, he should be back to form.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

So' date=' you think you are smarter than Gregg Williams, huh? Because that's who thinks he's a coverage safety. Last year his stats reflect what was going on in the secondary. His solo tackles rose from 61,62 his first two years, to 83 last year. Totals went from 78,72 to 114. His coverage suffered because of the failures of others and the fact that HE had to account for those mistakes. His first year he displayed his "ballhawking" abilities when, as a rookie, he had four interceptions and 15 passes defended. Unfortunately, he has been unable to match that success because he has had to focus on the line of scrimmage/run game. It has put him in position to make tackles and provide run support, but taken out of position for making plays in the secondary/deep balls. His recent weight loss coupled with his natural ability should have his production up. As well, I expect GW to refous Taylor to exploit his ability to cover more field than any other safety in the game. He IS every bit a ballhawk he just hasn't been ballhawking. With the athletic, sure-tackling McIntosh moving in to WLB, Fletcher stopping up the front and Landry providing a much more athletic and competent SS, he should be back to form.[/quote']

can i skip reading it all and say YES..I am smarter then Greg Williams.....

J/k I respect Coach Williams to death and he will do the right thing with his personel

I still think its funny how arrogant he was about not needing superstarts for his def. to do well....then his team of nobody's go out and rank almost last in total yards given up. and 27th in points scored...

PS: WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....

[TheFan]

So Dallas is going to jump from the bottom of the league to the top b/c of a "new defensive system" and "Ken Hamlin"? Whatever dude.

Yeah, you're probably right, b/c we have no d-line...oh wait...neither does Dallas. Andre Carter had almost twice the sacks last year as Canty and Spears have in their careers. So all of a sudden they are going to "bring pressure?"

The more you post the more you show how little you know. '04 and '05 had the same production from the D-line as '06. So keep harping on the d-line. Thats a fact.

So again, other than wishful thinking, what are you basing this on?

You can look it up, but Dallas' defense was playing pretty well until Ellis went down and there wasn't a complimentary pass rusher to keep teams from focusing on Ware. Ellis' return and the addition of Spencer as another pass rusher should make a difference.

As far as the DL goes, there have been a few articles on this, but Parcell's version had the linemen responsible for 2 gaps, right and left of his man. Lineman had to hold position and play the run first, then rush if its a pass. Wade's version has them with 1 gap responsibility most of the time so they can rush the passer first or tackle the runner in the backfield.

TheFan

[Riggo#44]

You can look it up, but Dallas' defense was playing pretty well until Ellis went down and there wasn't a complimentary pass rusher to keep teams from focusing on Ware. Ellis' return and the addition of Spencer as another pass rusher should make a difference.

And I quote:

WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....

Ellis...and....Ellis were hurt...you really think thats going to repeat with Wade at the helm?

As far as the DL goes, there have been a few articles on this, but Parcell's version had the linemen responsible for 2 gaps, right and left of his man. Lineman had to hold position and play the run first, then rush if its a pass. Wade's version has them with 1 gap responsibility most of the time so they can rush the passer first or tackle the runner in the backfield.

TheFan

So is the "new defensive system" that is going to turn Canty and Spears into pass-rushing demons. So maybe they'll post three sacks this year? Career high?

[Kurd Cudins]

I still think its funny how arrogant he was about not needing superstarts for his def. to do well....then his team of nobody's go out and rank almost last in total yards given up. and 27th in points scored...

PS: WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....

Please show me in my post where I mention injuries. My point was that we have upgraded at several positions.

Also, team of nobodies? I don't think that is what Williams was going for. That is perhaps your perception but it is misguided. Griffin, Washington, Carter, Taylor, Springs and Rogers. Who exactly are the nobodies and what makes them a nobody? Perhaps that is where our opinions differ.

[Riggo#44]

WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....

That's right the Redskins were forced to rely on third and fourth stingers - you had all your starters, save one, healthy - so what's your excuse?

[jrockster21]

That's right the Redskins were forced to rely on third and fourth stingers - you had all your starters, save one, healthy - so what's your excuse?

buuurrrrnnn!!! :laugh:

[TheFan]

And I quote:

Ellis...and....Ellis were hurt...you really think thats going to repeat with Wade at the helm?

So is the "new defensive system" that is going to turn Canty and Spears into pass-rushing demons. So maybe they'll post three sacks this year? Career high?

You really are a sad little person. You couldn't have a reasonable discussion so you make up quotes.

I didn't say "WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....". Nice try though, my kids would have been impressed if they were still 5 years old.

I pointed out that the injury did impact the defenses performance. Just as Skin's fans have done regarding their defense.

"you really think thats going to repeat with Wade at the helm?" - Riggo

Is that supposed to mean something? :whoknows:

As for the defensive system, yes Riggo, changing from 2 gap to 1 gap responsibilities will help the DL get to the QB faster because instead of read-react they are attacking the one gap. It's really not as hard a concept as you make it out to be.

TheFan

[TonyRomoProBowl]

That's right the Redskins were forced to rely on third and fourth stingers - you had all your starters, save one, healthy - so what's your excuse?

we sucked! Down the stretch we bit the big one......

Its a whole new year. Now, will Washington pass Dallas in Defense? We shall see...i think the skins will improve, but i cant see them back into the top 10. I can see Dallas in the 10-15 range (overall) with the pass d bringing them down. No way they are going to go from where they are to the top 10 in (yds given up) but they will improve on the sack totals and will have somewhere near the same number of picks. But that will be good enough for a team that will put up 27 pts per game with around 360 yds per game.....

[Riggo#44]

You really are a sad little person. You couldn't have a reasonable discussion so you make up quotes.

I didn't say "WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAA we were injured and need and excuse...WHAAAAAA.....". Nice try though, my kids would have been impressed if they were still 5 years old.

Try reading. That was your boy's TRPB exact quote. Yes, I am sad little man, you feel better about yourself yet?

"you really think thats going to repeat with Wade at the helm?" - Riggo

Is that supposed to mean something? :whoknows:

Yes - Wade is a softie. It's been documented that Parcells "forced" players to play hurt. How many injuries were reported week-to-week? You really think that'll continue another season?

As for the defensive system, yes Riggo, changing from 2 gap to 1 gap responsibilities will help the DL get to the QB faster because instead of read-react they are attacking the one gap. It's really not as hard a concept as you make it out to be.

TheFan

Right it's totally unreasonable for me to assume that a player that has 3.5 sacks in his career is not going to post 7 all of a sudden b/c of a "new defensive system." What am I thinking??

[Riggo#44]

we sucked! Down the stretch we bit the big one......

Good! ok now follow me on this one. So Dallas sucked last year right? Ok good we agree. So if Dallas sucked, and had all but one of their starters healthy, and the Redskins sucked just as bad, but were forced to use 3rd and 4th stringers in several areas, logic would assume...come on TRPB, I know you can figure this one out...use your big boy brain...

Its a whole new year. Now, will Washington pass Dallas in Defense? We shall see...i think the skins will improve, but i cant see them back into the top 10. I can see Dallas in the 10-15 range (overall) with the pass d bringing them down. No way they are going to go from where they are to the top 10 in (yds given up) but they will improve on the sack totals and will have somewhere near the same number of picks. But that will be good enough for a team that will put up 27 pts per game with around 360 yds per game.....

I am willing to bet Sacks more than double...35 at least. The Skins replaced scrubs with playmakers at no less then 4 positions. Turnovers will be way up.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Good! ok now follow me on this one. So Dallas sucked last year right? Ok good we agree. So if Dallas sucked, and had all but one of their starters healthy, and the Redskins sucked just as bad, but were forced to use 3rd and 4th stringers in several areas, logic would assume...come on TRPB, I know you can figure this one out...use your big boy brain...

I am willing to bet Sacks more than double...35 at least. The Skins replaced scrubs with playmakers at no less then 4 positions. Turnovers will be way up.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

playmakers in 4 spots...and even though its againt my best judgement i'll ask anyway...which 4 new playmakers do you have on the Defense and what 4 scrubs did they replace?

and i already said the skins will improve and Dallas may or maynot improve......but the Skins are going to have to REALLY improve to just be even with what Dallas did last season.

[Riggo#44]

ok, number one, i never said that the Cowboys will be anywhere near the top in defensive rankings especially the pass D...you are making things up now!

You compared the Dallas defnes to the Miami defense based on pass rush, did you not?

number two, to compare Carter to either Spears or Canty shows your complete lack of awarness of either Def. and their player personel responsibilities....this last post by you Riggo, shows me what a waste of time it truly is to debate with you...like i said...your a goofball!

Oh I'm sorry, my bad, yes the "new defensive system." You keep mentioning the pressure from the "front four" even though in Williams defense, the pressure rarely comes from the front four alone. It comes from all angles - not unlike a 3-4 defense.

You bash Carter's pass rushing ability, but say the Dallas D-line will be better right?

Canty and Spears have amassed 3.5 and 2.5 sacks in their careers respectively. What could you possibly point to to suggest that they have any professional pass-rushing ability? Again, other than wishful thinking.

So if you want to continue this, bring something other than "new defensive system" and "Ken Hamlin" would you?

[TheFan]

Try reading. That was your boy's TRPB exact quote. Yes, I am sad little man, you feel better about yourself yet?

I didn't call you a man, I said person. As far as the quote goes, in your response you had it as quoting me, not TRPB with that.

Yes - Wade is a softie. It's been documented that Parcells "forced" players to play hurt. How many injuries were reported week-to-week? You really think that'll continue another season?

Hm, I don't recall Wade's teams as being injury riddled. Do you have anything support the point that Wade's "softie" approach will translate to more injuries or is it just conjecture on your part?

Right it's totally unreasonable for me to assume that a player that has 3.5 sacks in his career is not going to post 7 all of a sudden b/c of a "new defensive system." What am I thinking??

If you can't acknowledge that a different system or style of play can impact a players performance I can't help you. By your logic, ST didn't have an excuse for an off year then, just because they had him playing the position differently is no excuse right?

Canty and Spears are young players that were highly regarded in the college ranks. It's a little early to say the book is closed on them after 2 years.

TheFan