German gets 5 years for denying Holocaust

[Sisyphus]

This argument is going in circles ... but the point is that neo-Nazis are a threat to European societies and that's why enabling their cause is an issue.

The Holocaust deniers don't care about the details of what happened at Belsen or Auschwitz. They care about spreading hatred of Jews, knowing full well that there are violent dissaffected men listening to their words. And, they'll aggressively promote the hate messages to make sure the viiolent audience hears and to increase their strength.

That is the intent of the Holocaust deniers. It is not one that can be exposed as false through reasoned debate.

I'll ask again, would you allow US-based radical Islamic clerics to advocate suicide bombings?

[@DCGoldPants]

One side of it anyway...

What do you mean?

[Rocky21]

Guess there's no freedom of speech in Germany.

[JMS]

That is the intent of the Holocaust deniers. It is not one that can be exposed as false through reasoned debate.

One isn't trying to change the minds of folks who've made up their minds for whatever reason to believe the holocost is fiction. One is trying to innoculate any potential converts to their philosophy through reasoned debate. To outlaw an idea is to protect it from inspection by society.

I'll ask again, would you allow US-based radical Islamic clerics to advocate suicide bombings?

We allow them to deni 9-11 ever happenned. We allow them to publish arguments that other people even our government actually were the purputrators of 911. We allow the Klan to march down constitution ave and hold rallies on the steps of the Lincoln memorial. The Nazi's are right there with them too. We don't do these things because anybody agrees with these ideas.

[Blighty Skins]

The British "historian" was a nut job. The Germans wrongfully jailing him for creating his own flawed version of history doesn't make that neo Nazi theorists any more correct.

Calling a respected author and historian a "nutjob" is flawed, in my opinion. And they were Austrians not Germans who jailed him. So please stop talking out of your arse. :applause:

Seriously, if there's anything I hate more it's people who just spurt out crap without a) not knowing the true facts and/or too lazy too research the facts.

:doh:

[Blighty Skins]

This goes a lot further than 'thought crimes' or the 'right to free speech'. This is not some academic calculating that the number of Jews being exterminated may not have been 6 million but 'only' 5.5 million or some lower number.

Holocaust denial has been used to enable fascism and a neo-Nazi agenda. People who are prosecuted are because they are promoting a conspiracy theory that is used to intimidate and leads directly to hate crimes against Jews and minorities.

Cross-burning with the intent of intimidating someone is illegal in Virginia. Is that a simple free speech issue too?

Rubbish! You have no proof Holocaust denial has a direct inlfuence on people to the point of going out and attacking Jews.

[JMS]

What do you mean?

I mean in Germany they are free to show all the mountains of evidence and eye witness reports that the holocost occured. But they are not able to use that overwhelming evidence to effectively counter the Holocost denyers. Because it is illegal to present the deniers argument in Germany.

[Blighty Skins]

FYI, "historian" David Irvine is just as full of crap as this guy and deserves no more respect for his scholarship on this subject. He did some interesting scholarship early in his career, but now he just makes stuff up to get attention and doesn't even try to support his claims.

With that said, I am a free speech guy, and I am horrified by this thought crime sentence. I understand that Germany is attempting to deal with a huge amount of national guilt which makes them overreact to stuff, but it is never a good idea to limit freedom of speech except by necessary time, place and manner restrictions.

The best antidote to false speech is true speech.

And I suppose you have overwhleming evidence that Auschwitz was in fact a concentration camp where Jews were gassed and not a slave labour camp like Irvine states? I'd be curious to "see" this evidence.

See...if the Nazi's had their way, we couldn't even have this discussion, because one of us would be in jail. As I said, I do believe the Holocaust happened...but I could change my mind yet. And when people stop me from making my mind up...I always think there's a reason for it. Like maybe they are hiding the fact THAT IT WAS A LIE?

Makes you think, eh?

[headexplode]

Seriously, if there's anything I hate more it's people who just spurt out crap without a) not knowing the true facts and/or too lazy too research the facts.

:doh:

Sounds like pretty much a lot of the things you post around here, mate.

[@DCGoldPants]

oh man, and here comes the heat.............

[Blighty Skins]

If its a crime in Germany than whats the problem?

Either read the whole bloody thread or don't ask stupid questions. The Germans and Austrians are trying to make it law throughout Europe via the ****s at the EU. Meaning if an American, who is used to free speach, comes to visit Europe and casually observes they doubt the Holocaust ever happened. They'd have their VISA forcefully extended to include the up to 5 years in a European jail. How about that?

[Sisyphus]

We allow them to deni 9-11 ever happenned. We allow them to publish arguments that other people even our government actually were the purputrators of 911. We allow the Klan to march down constitution ave and hold rallies on the steps of the Lincoln memorial. The Nazi's are right there with them too. We don't do these things because anybody agrees with these ideas.

You tellingly avoided the question.

The European countries that have enacted a law because they think it's a threat to the safety of minorities in their society, not over an issue of free speech.

[Sisyphus]

Either read the whole bloody thread or don't ask stupid questions. The Germans and Austrians are trying to make it law throughout Europe via the ****s at the EU. Meaning if an American, who is used to free speach, comes to visit Europe and casually observes they doubt the Holocaust ever happened. They'd have their VISA forcefully extended to include the up to 5 years in a European jail. How about that?

That is not how the law has been prosecuted.

A casual comment is not what this law is about and you know it.

[Blighty Skins]

Sounds like pretty much a lot of the things you post around here, mate.

How about giving some examples and evidence against my findings. Because what you're doing with that statement is just spurting out generalised rubbish...i.e. TALKING OUT YER ARSE, MATE.

So please go and buy a butt-plug or something....cheers.

[Major Harris]

and the thread degenerates....c'mon guys, cut it with the insults.

[DixieFlatline]

That is not how the law has been prosecuted.

A casual comment is not what this law is about and you know it.

I don't know enough about the law to know how its prosecuted, but even if that's the case, I think its dangerous. It should be written to define exactly what is the issue. Is it inciting people to do harm or just writing about denying the holocaust?

I mean, think about how many court cases we hear about in the state where someone is convicted and sentenced to long prison terms, only to hear the lawmakers lament the situation prosecuted wasn't in the spirit of the law.

[Sisyphus]

Calling a respected author and historian a "nutjob" is flawed, in my opinion. And they were Austrians not Germans who jailed him. So please stop talking out of your arse. :applause:

Seriously, if there's anything I hate more it's people who just spurt out crap without a) not knowing the true facts and/or too lazy too research the facts.

:doh:

Respected I'm not so sure about.

The court case Irving lost in 1988 found that he is "an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

[Blighty Skins]

That is not how the law has been prosecuted.

A casual comment is not what this law is about and you know it.

Yes it is...anyone who denys the Holocaust will be jailed. Why don't you try it? Go up to an Austrian or German Police Officer and tell him you think the Holocaust never happened. It's the same thing as offering to sell him drugs. i.e. against the law.

[Blighty Skins]

Respected I'm not so sure about.

The court case Irving lost in 1988 found that he is "an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

You fail to tell us the "court case" was in Austria. He is British. How would you like it if an Iranian court found Mr. Bush a war criminal and sentenced him to death? Would you take them seriously and send your President over to be given "just sentencing"? Get off your high pony...please.

Fact remains Irvine is respected in HIS country of origin.

[headexplode]

How about giving some examples and evidence against my findings. Because what you're doing with that statement is just spurting out generalised rubbish...i.e. TALKING OUT YER ARSE, MATE.

So please go and buy a butt-plug or something....cheers.

It's not your findings I was referring to, just your general existence and attitudes towards, well, pretty much everything.

[JMS]

Calling a respected author and historian a "nutjob" is flawed, in my opinion. And they were Austrians not Germans who jailed him. So please stop talking out of your arse. :applause:

Seriously, if there's anything I hate more it's people who just spurt out crap without a) not knowing the true facts and/or too lazy too research the facts.

:doh:

I apologize for offending and violating your stringent academic sensibilities with my vulgar and poorly researched rant. in my own defense I and you did not mention David Irvine by name. I perpetrated this omission because I did not want to restrict my label onto that single offender of the German thought law. Nor did I mention Ernst Zundel a fellow (forgive me for my consistency here) "nut job" holocaust denier.

While I do talk out of my arse frequently, I never post such vocalizations on the internet. mostly because while my arse can vocalize, sadly it cannot type.

Lastly while I'm saddened and upset by inciting your "hatred", It is just one of my life’s many disappointments which I shall have to bare..

Please feel free to goose step on through.

[Blighty Skins]

I apologize for offending and violating your stringent academic sensibilities with my vulgar and poorly researched rant. in my own defense I and you did not mention David Irvine by name. I perpetrated this omission because I did not want to restrict my label onto that single offender of the German thought law. Nor did I mention Ernst Zundel a fellow (forgive me for my consistency here) "nut job" holocaust denier.

While I do talk out of my arse frequently, I never post such vocalizations on the internet. mostly because while my arse can vocalize, sadly it cannot type.

Lastly while I'm saddened and upset by inciting your "hatred", It is just one of my life’s many disappointments which I shall have to bare..

Please feel free to goose step on through.

You're wrong...I DID mention Irvine in my previous post.

[Sisyphus]

I don't know enough about the law to know how its prosecuted, but even if that's the case, I think its dangerous. It should be written to define exactly what is the issue.

It's all about the intent and context. Much like the Supreme Court said about pornography it's not possible to define perfectly, but "I know it when I see it".

People are not going to jail for something they wrote or said once or twice. People who have been prosecuted have spent years enabling neo-Nazis, telling them that they have been punished because of lies spread by the Jews.

[TradeTheBeal!]

It's akin to a US ciitizen being thrown in jail for denying the slave trade or "the trail of tears" ever took place. It's a ludicrous law that likely does more good for the "Neo-Nazis" than bad as it allows them to play the victim card. It's utterly non-sensical.

[JMS]

You tellingly avoided the question.

The European countries that have enacted a law because they think it's a threat to the safety of minorities in their society, not over an issue of free speech.

Yeah the blacks in southern cities like Washington DC don't have anything historically to fear from the Klan marching down their streets. I didn't avoid the assertion that the German law is there to protect minorities. I disagreed with the effectiveness and implementation of the attempt.