Do penalties pad Irvins stats????

[cozmikbuffalo]

The rules of the game were very different when Irvin played then when Monk played .

So to the seasons were shorter.

I am curious to know now just how many yards attributed to Irvin came by way of penalty .

How many of his catches were attributed to penalty etc...

When Art Monk played the game CB's could not only jam beyond 5 yards they could hand fight you down the field , hold the jersey and in some cases faceguard the WR .

When Art Monk played there weren't all these sissy boy save the QB rules . There was no 2 step rule for the QB's of Monks day . And as a concequence a lot of times the WR had to adjust his route to the flight of the ball . Or come back and fight the CB for the ball . Monk did that a lot .

So , if we were to re-examine both players stats based on asteriking the plays with penalties will this change how we look at greatness ? I think it should man .

What do you think about that "Mr Playmaker"???

Coz:helmet: :helmet: :helmet:

[Riggo-toni]

1. Penalties are not included in a WR's stats.

2. The 5 yard no contact rule was in effect for most (if not all) of Monk's career. there just wasn't as much emphasis/strict enforcement of it as there has been over the last few years. The changing of the rule is why Theismann surpassed Jurgy as the Skins' all-time leading passer, and, quite frankly, why Monk passed Charley Taylor.

3. Seasons were the same number of games, unless you account for the 2 strike-shortened years in 82 and 87.

[Bryan81]

I don't think the penalty argument is a good one - mainly because it makes no sense, but Art Monk should be in the Hall of Fame, since he became the prototype for future WR's - like Irvin for example.

[cozmikbuffalo]

1. Penalties are not included in a WR's stats.

2. The 5 yard no contact rule was in effect for most (if not all) of Monk's career. there just wasn't as much emphasis/strict enforcement of it as there has been over the last few years. The changing of the rule is why Theismann surpassed Jurgy as the Skins' all-time leading passer, and, quite frankly, why Monk passed Charley Taylor.

3. Seasons were the same number of games, unless you account for the 2 strike-shortened years in 82 and 87.

OK, thanks for that . I guess I'm getting old and forgetful . It just seemed to me that Art had to fight off more defenders most of the time .

Coz

[cozmikbuffalo]

I don't think the penalty argument is a good one - mainly because it makes no sense, but Art Monk should be in the Hall of Fame, since he became the prototype for future WR's - like Irvin for example.

True that!!!!!

Coz

[Charlie_Babar]

In my mind, whether or not Irvin should be in the HOF has no bearing on Monk....That being said, I think they both deserve the HOF.

There seems to be a huge ground swell of support for Monk and hopefully it will just snowball. Fans should bring this up every time they call into a radio show or talk about the skins. Don't let it fall under the radar. Then we will pray that he gets the votes for 2008.

[ntotoro]

Irvin's numbers are probably increased by how many DB's he pushed off, not how many DB's pushed off him... :laugh:

[D-Fence]

In my mind, whether or not Irvin should be in the HOF has no bearing on Monk....That being said, I think they both deserve the HOF.

Exactly! Supporting Michael Irvin for the HOF does not preclude supporting Monk. Michael Irvin's lack of class off the field shoudn't keep him out, just as Art Monk's class off the field should not help his case that much. Players should be judged by their actions on the field, and the actions of both these players warrant induction to the hall.

[no1fanofno21]

The rules of the game were very different when Irvin played then when Monk played .

So to the seasons were shorter.

I am curious to know now just how many yards attributed to Irvin came by way of penalty .

How many of his catches were attributed to penalty etc...

When Art Monk played the game CB's could not only jam beyond 5 yards they could hand fight you down the field , hold the jersey and in some cases faceguard the WR .

When Art Monk played there weren't all these sissy boy save the QB rules . There was no 2 step rule for the QB's of Monks day . And as a concequence a lot of times the WR had to adjust his route to the flight of the ball . Or come back and fight the CB for the ball . Monk did that a lot .

So , if we were to re-examine both players stats based on asteriking the plays with penalties will this change how we look at greatness ? I think it should man .

What do you think about that "Mr Playmaker"???

Coz:helmet: :helmet: :helmet:

STFU, im sick of hearing about how Monk is more deserving than Irving. Just because he was a cowboy don't come down on him. Monk and Irving should both be in the HOF, just give this ____ a break.

[TheDane]

STFU, im sick of hearing about how Monk is more deserving than Irving. Just because he was a cowboy don't come down on him. Monk and Irving should both be in the HOF, just give this ____ a break.

They should both be in the Hall, this is true.

But, Monk is more deserving than Irvin. There are many reasons for this.

So you STFU. I'll go one step further. Throw out your computer so that you spare humanity your inevitable temptation to be a forum idiot again.

[BlueStar22]

But, Monk is more deserving than Irvin. There are many reasons for this.

care to elaborate?

[ntotoro]

STFU, im sick of hearing about how Monk is more deserving than Irving. Just because he was a cowboy don't come down on him. Monk and Irving should both be in the HOF, just give this ____ a break.

Irving is already in the HoF. I would hope so. The guy scored over 30k points!!!

[TheDane]

care to elaborate?

I don't feel like re-writing what's been said at least one hundred times since Saturday, but feel free to actually read the rest of the board while you're a visitor in our house.

[pjfootballer]

Think of how many more catches Charley Taylor would have had if they didn't have the bump and run which was outlawed after the 1977 season to the 5 yard rule, which is more enforced today then when Monk first started out.

Taylor and those guys were literally mauled up and down the field. Lester Hayes was the best at the bump and run.

[SnyderMustGo]

The rules of the game were very different when Irvin played then when Monk played

Huh???

Of Irvin's 11 seasons, Monk played 7 of them.

You make it sound like Irvin played in 21st century and Monk played in the 1950s.

This is a stupid argument.

That Art Monk belongs in the Hall of Fame is an issue completely independent of whether Irvin belongs in.

[ldsdbomber]

Irving is already in the HoF. I would hope so. The guy scored over 30k points!!!

30,000 points?

how did he do that then?

[nebster21]

When Irvin was catching balls the 5 yard rule was enforced 10 times as much as when ART was in the league. Passing was not as big in the NFL as it was during Irvin's time. Art Monk did not have the offensive line that that cowboys had(Hershal Walker Trade).

Monk

His main RB's during his career

Wilbur Jackson, Joe Washington, John Riggins, George Rogers, Timmy Smith, Gerald Riggs, Earnest Byner, Reggie Brooks, Johnny Johnson, Ricky Watters

His QB's During his time in Dallas

Mike Kruczek, Joey T, Jay Schroeder, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Stan Humphries, Jeff Rutledge, Rich Gannon, Boomer Esiason, Jack Trudeau, Randall Cunningham, Rodney Peete.

Irvin

His main RB's during his career

Smith(leads all RB;s in the history of the NFL),Paul Palmer, Herschel Walker

His QB's During his time in Dallas

Steve Pelleur, Kevin Sweeney, Danny White, Steve Walsh, Babe Laufenberg, Steve Beuerlein, Bernie Kosar, Jason Garrett, Rodney Peete, Wade Wilson, Troy Aikman

So this tells me that Irvin had more consistency during his career with his QB's and his RB's one of which leads all time RB's for rushing yards.

Why is it that people say that Monk had better personnel around him when it is obvious that Irvin had more help around him?

from that same team irvin will be joined by 2 other players in the HOF. Why is it that they over look the players that Irvin had on his team but they are sure to point out who MONK had on his team.

[TheDane]

30,000 points?

how did he do that then?

Easy, he scored 5,000 touchdowns.

[seanyt]

Nah they don't pad his stats, but Irvin being the greatest non call push off wide reciever might have attributed to the boys being able to stretch the field...

[enzof1]

Irvin's numbers are probably increased by how many DB's he pushed off, not how many DB's pushed off him... :laugh:

Exactly, Irvin pushed off on at least 50% or more of his receptions, Irvin himself has even bragged about it on T.V., & this was during a time when DBs were being called for pass interference when they would get too close to the receiver. Although Monk & Irvin played under the same rules, the way the officials called the game was much more in favor of the receiver during Irvin's career than it was during Monk's.

:dallasuck

[SnyderMustGo]

the officials called the game was much more in favor of the receiver during Irvin's career than it was during Monk's.

Again... they played at the same time.

Your making it sound like they are from different eras.

[nebster21]

Again... they played at the same time.

Your making it sound like they are from different eras.

Sure they overlapped 8 years of playing so you are right on that aspect. Hmm lets see what could happen in the other 8 years that monk was in the league. Hmm, maybe we can use the Salary Cap. 1990 there was none but in 1998 there was a salary cap. But yet 8 years there is no difference there. Should we even go back to 1915 or so when the First forward pass was used. What about the players before than. I could go on to use analogies but I am surey ou smart enough to realize that things change fairly quickly and 8 years is an eternity in the NFL.

[enzof1]

Again... they played at the same time.

Your making it sound like they are from different eras.

They are from different eras Monk started his career in 1980 & Irvin started his in 1988. By the time Irvin had entered the league Monk was getting near the end of his career. Yes, they did play under the same rules but as I pointed out the way the officials called the game (whether it was of their own doing or from pressure by the league office I don't know) was different. During most of Irvins career the games were officiated to favor the offense & especially receivers, while it handicapped DBs. The NFL was a very receiver friendly league during the 1990s more than it is currently & much more than it was in the 1980s. You forget than during the first few years of Monk's career there were still plenty of officials in the league that were use to the old bump & run rules of the previous decades. Now how can you say that they played at the same time when Irvin's career started 8 years after Monk's (1980 vs 1988)?

:eaglesuck