For Better or For Worse

[Om]

MADD's still miffed I turned him down first, that's all.

And no worries. In his state that night, Ms. Nicks' husky voice probably sounded like "Steve."

MADD never has been able to hold his liquor. Have you seen some of his posts of late?

[MRMADD]

MADD's still miffed I turned him down first, that's all.

And no worries. In his state that night, Ms. Nicks' husky voice probably sounded like "Steve."

MADD never has been able to hold his liquor. Have you seen some of his posts of late?

I take great offense at that! Them's fightin' words! It may be true that I can't hold my liquor now and have to take a short nap after two shots, but back in the day I could toss 'em back with anyone. I've "never been able" to hold my liquor? That is a LIE! Ban yourself for a week!

[Om]

You're two years old, MADD. You have no "back in the day."

[MRMADD]

You're two years old, MADD. You have no "back in the day."

Hey, for me, anything before nap time is "back in the day."

[Guest Rafterman]

You're right about Michingan not being a low profile team. Seems kind of unlikely 31 other NFL organizations wouldn't have happened to scout the draft-eligible quarterbacks on such a squad, don't you think? Also seems unlikely that if NE saw a likely HOF candidate QB there that they'd have waited until the SIXTH ROUND to grab him, don't you think?

Bit of a gamble, wot?

For your theory to hold water, the Pats would have to have been the only team of 32 to know or care that he was playing at Michigan to begin with. Beyond that, they would have had to recognize the massive potential but been so confident no other team would draft him through five rounds of the draft that they could wait around with their feet up on the desk until the 199th pick to snap up their very own legend.

Doesn't really seem all that likely, does it.

Just for grins, here's the Pro Football Weekly scouting report on Brady plucked off the Pats own web site:

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=5549&pcid=46

Sounds like about a dozen other QB's that come out every single year.

But the Patriots--and the Patriots only--"scouted" him, saw him for the HOFer he'd become, and on top of all that, were shrewd enough to let him hang around exposed for five full rounds before grabbing him so they could take the following six guys first because, well, because their FO was just so damn sharp:

Adrian Klemm T Hawaii

J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State

Greg Robinson-Randall T Michigan State

Dave Stachelski TE Boise State

Jeff Marriott DE Missouri

Antwan Harris S Virginia

Don't kid yourself. Tom Brady fell into NE's lap like manna from heaven.

I appreciate the assist.

Any chance you remember where he was drafted?

"Could make it in the right system but will not be for everyone."

Hence the brilliance of Steve Pioli and Bill Belchick.

They make their picks count, they fill holes. The proof is the 3 Lombardi's won in the FA/SC era. Pittsburgh and Denver do the same things and are in the play off chase more often then not.

If the Redskins would hire a strong GM and emulate them they would get a lot farther in the long run.

[Om]

"Could make it in the right system but will not be for everyone."

Hence the brilliance of Steve Pioli and Bill Belchick.

They make their picks count, they fill holes. The proof is the 3 Lombardi's won in the FA/SC era. Pittsburgh and Denver do the same things and are in the play off chase more often then not.

If the Redskins would hire a strong GM and emulate them they would get a lot farther in the long run.

THAT's what you picked from that post to respond to?

The post you cherry-picked that from was a response to YOUR post blithely dismissing what I'd said about having a HOF QB like Tom Brady fall into your lap in the 6th round of the draft ... and what having a QB like that does for an entire organization.

You either totally missed the point, or you smartly changed the focus again.

[SonnyJ]

To further underscore Om's point, Brady was the Patriots' SECOND pick in the sixth round that draft. So, Rafterman's contention would be that they were SO shrewd that they KNEW they could wait on Brady until their SECOND pick in round 6. Does Rafterman make a living by selling ice cubes to eskimos ?

Look, the Redskins picked Husak just a few picks after Brady went. From what I've read, they had Brady rated just a smidgen higher, but the Pats were able to get him first. Had the draft slots been reversed, you think we would still be talking in reverent tones about the Todd Husak-led Patriots?

[MRMADD]

THAT's what you picked from that post to respond to?

The post you cherry-picked that from was a response to YOUR post blithely dismissing what I'd said about having a HOF QB like Tom Brady fall into your lap in the 6th round of the draft ... and what having a QB like that does for an entire organization.

You either totally missed the point, or you smartly changed the focus again.

No doubt the Patriots were lucky with Brady. No doubt. If they knew what they were getting, they'd have taken him in the first round. But... how do you explain drafting Asante Samuel in the 4th round? Picking up Pro Bowler Larry Izzo as a dirt-cheap free agent? The list goes on and on. The Patriots are absolutely consistent in getting lucky. Which means it ain't luck at all.

[Om]

I've never suggested the Pats don't do a good job of drafting. Clearly, they do.

What I have been suggesting is:

1) Tom Brady was a gift from the gods that could just as easily have been snatched up by any one of 31 other teams as late as the fifth round, and

2) that HAVING a gift from the gods like Brady is a rising tide that lifts all an organization's ships.

I think having a true franchise QB changes everything; from how smart the owner looks to how smart the personnel people look to how smart the coaches look to how good the other players look. I've always believed that, and one of these days I'm going to research and write the definitive piece tracking all the most "successful" franchises in the modern era and find out just how big an effect getting an All-Timer at QB really has.

Meanwhile, I recall things like what a laughingstock the Colts were for all those years before Manning showed up, and what a joke the Eagles were before McNabb showed up, etc., and can't help but think that much of the love being directed at the NE front office for the past few years is, to some tangible degree, a side effect of the team winning at a crazy clip because the most important guy in the NFL---the QB---is working his magic.

I don't think its fair or particularly smart to judge front offices while franchise (in Brady's case HOF) QB's are doing their thing and lifting the entire organization around them. NE may prove to have the best brain trust in the history of sport ... but I'm inclined to wait to make that judgment until a couple of years after the glow of Brady has finally worn off when he retires before annointing them.

[MRMADD]

I think having a true franchise QB changes everything; from how smart the owner looks to how smart the personnel people look to how smart the coaches look to how good the other players look. I've always believed that, and one of these days I'm going to research and write the definitive piece tracking all the most "successful" franchises in the modern era and find out just how big an effect getting an All-Timer at QB really has.

Most important position on the field. Touches the ball every play. Would the Skins be a different team if they'd drafted Brady? Probably. But this is another area where you make your own luck. You can't find the next Tom Brady if you give your draft picks away, and it's pretty damn rare to have a Drew Brees available to the highest bidder.

I don't think its fair or particularly smart to judge front offices while franchise (in Brady's case HOF) QB's are doing their thing and lifting the entire organization around them. NE may prove to have the best brain trust in the history of sport ... but I'm inclined to wait to make that judgment until a couple of years after the glow of Brady has finally worn off when he retires before annointing them.

Again, how do you explain their remarkable success in finding other hidden gems? Asante Samuel, 4th round. Larry Izzo, inexpensive free agent. Take a look at this:

2005 Logan Mankins, Kaczur (4th round)

2004 Ben Watson

2003 Ty Warren (using the Skins pick), Asante Samuel (4th round), Banta Cain (7th round)

2002 Deion Branch (3rd round pick they traded for a 1st round pick)

2001 Richard Seymour (Pro Bowler), Matt Light

Every year, it's the same thing -- finding real contributors in the draft. You're sticking to your Brady story, but compare these draft results -- which aren't complete -- to the Skins. It's embarrassing. Almost all their top picks pan out, and they consistently find low round guys who turn into studs.

I'd say it's perfectly fair to grade their front office right now. And ours.

[Drex]

The presence of a franchise quarterback does have a positive effect in a football organization. However, it requires more than just the presence of a franchise qb to win in this league. Dan Marino and John Elway are two good examples of the point I intend on getting across.

Marino quarterbacked the Dolphins from 1983-1999 and didn't win a superbowl. Many years, he put up great statistics passing the football but was unable to attain team success as a result of the lack of the presence of even a solid running back (Lorenzo Hampton, Troy Stratford, Bobby Humphrey,etc.just didn't get the job done, to say the least), and a defense that was equally as bad. Miami failed to make the playoffs for 4 consecutive seasons (1986-1989) despite Marino putting up great stats.

Elway suffered from the same problem faced by Marino for the majority of his NFL career. Elway didn't win a title until Denver discovered their own 6th round gem in Terrell Davis. Elway suffered from the same problems faced by Marino: the lack of a running game and a not so good defense, until Davis was drafted an emerged as a force and guys like Steve A****er, John Mobley, etc. became stalwarts on the Broncos defensive unit.

The point of my post is to not to diminish the significance of having a franchise qb. It sure does make things easier to have a Marino, Elway, Montana, etc. However, those type of players don't win titles by themselves. Elway and Marino are two Hall of Fame qb's who lifted the performance of the team's passing game but ultimately, were undone as a result of their respective franchise's failure to fortify the other units of the team.

This is where you should give credit to the New England front office: as much as Tom Brady has been a constant, having a strong running game and a strong defense have been just as important in New England's string of championships. New England's front office has done a good job over the years of surrounding Brady with a good running game and a consistently strong defense and not to mention, an oustanding kicker in Viniateri. All of this has also been done despite drafting at the bottom of the first round virtually every season since they started to win titles.

Having a Tom Brady sure does help. However, an organization that provides a Brady with a strong team in every phase of the game: offense, defense and special teams, isn't a bad thing either. New England's front office deserves credit for that :2cents: .

[Om]

MADD, not sure what else to say. You quoted my posts all right, but your answers don't seem to acknowledge or be responsive to what I actually said. Not really inclined to keep running in circles on this. If I haven't made my point in however many tries I've given it in this thread already, perhaps the point is simply unamakealbe.

At least to some.

Drex ... you're absolutely right. A HOF QB doesn't guarantee championships. Never suggested it did. The organization still has to field a competent team around him. My point, again, is that HAVING the HOF QB makes that job one hell of a lot easier. I say this with NE in mind in particular, as their FO has become the Superstar FO du Jour in the NFL these days.

From where I sit though, while it's fine to applaud them at this point and acknowledge they are doing well, I'm going to hold off on joining the Hosanna Chorus signing their praises until I see them continue to field consistent legitimate championship-level squads without Senor Brady around.

My thesis here is that a QB like Brady or Manning makes EVERYONE on the team better, and makes them LOOK better, because he can quite literally be the difference between a typical 9-7 team and a champion. At 9-7, all those supporting players look a certain way. At 13-3 and heading to the Super Bowl, they look totally different--they look like stars. And people start saying the FO that landed them is the model for how a franchise should be run.

Maybe NE really IS that smart. I just don't think this is the time to paint them as The One, not while they have Tom Brady turning them from just another decent team into the league's reigning dynasty.

[MRMADD]

MADD, not sure what else to say. You quoted my posts all right, but your answers don't seem to acknowledge or be responsive to what I actually said. Not really inclined to keep running in circles on this. If I haven't made my point in however many tries I've given it in this thread already, perhaps the point is simply unamakealbe.

You mean your point all this time was that having a good quarterback makes a team better? Who knew?

[Om]

You mean your point all this time was that having a good quarterback makes a team better? Who knew?

Well, that's part of it anyway.

Keep trying, MADD. Perhaps you'll get the rest eventually.

[TheLongshot]

My thesis here is that a QB like Brady or Manning makes EVERYONE on the team better, and makes them LOOK better, because he can quite literally be the difference between a typical 9-7 team and a champion. At 9-7, all those supporting players look a certain way. At 13-3 and heading to the Super Bowl, they look totally different--they look like stars. And people start saying the FO that landed them is the model for how a franchise should be run.

And in the case of Elway and Marino, they almost single handedly made their teams contenders, even if the rest of the team wasn't up to snuff.

But, if you want a dynasty, you better have the QB. It is why it is pretty amazing that Gibbs was able to win with three different guys. He never had that franchise QB.

Those guys trying to pimp Calvin Johnson should read this. They seem to think that he's all you need for championships, forgetting that you still need to get him the ball.

Jason

[riggoraider]

And in the case of Elway and Marino, they almost single handedly made their teams contenders, even if the rest of the team wasn't up to snuff.

But, if you want a dynasty, you better have the QB. It is why it is pretty amazing that Gibbs was able to win with three different guys. He never had that franchise QB.

Those guys trying to pimp Calvin Johnson should read this. They seem to think that he's all you need for championships, forgetting that you still need to get him the ball.

Jason

And you are right, a great QB could make teams instant contenders. The problem is that we ae not blessed with a Marino or Elway so we may need to take the, reverse, approach like we did when we had, lesser, talented QB's. This, along with the hogs and good RB's is how Gibbs was able to win with three different QB's.

It does work the opposite way too...right?

[Morneblade]

And you are right, a great QB could make teams instant contenders. The problem is that we ae not blessed with a Marino or Elway so we may need to take the, reverse, approach like we did when we had, lesser, talented QB's. This, along with the hogs and good RB's is how Gibbs was able to win with three different QB's.

It does work the opposite way too...right?

It sure does. Unfortunatly right now we short on a good defence, which is vital to any championship team, HoF QB or not.

[riggoraider]

It sure does. Unfortunatly right now we short on a good defence, which is vital to any championship team, HoF QB or not.

DAAAAANG.... Bobby B. said it best...."every little step I take"....

OK OK OK!!!, blade we do need defensive help and we are going to get the defense fixed...some way some how!!!!

I am thinking of ways to contact Gibbs and his staff, as we speak, to let them know that we had the 31st ranked "D" in the NFL so we can get this thing fixed.