Virginia's Senate Debate

[The Sir]

Has anyone been watching so far?

[heyholetsgogrant]

Has anyone been watching so far?

is their a website we ca stream from? I dont live in VA..

-Grant

[Zen-like Todd]

You're in charge of recapping the debate for everyone.

[The Sir]

First Virginia senate debate that I've seen, I liked the format a lot. They really asked a lot of the questions everyone would want to hear instead of questions that don't concern most people.

I thought it was funny where Webb asked Allen about a about these islands near China, and Allen's response which he had 2 minutes to give was "I'd have to study the issue further". Seems like a senator should be educated on most of these things.

I can not provide a recap, sorry, lol. That's not happening, MNF time

[Midnight Judges]

That was the most pathetic, awkward, and sophmoric debate I've ever seen. The moderator was horrible, Allen was horrible, and even though I am a Webb supporter, he was horrible too.

Allen spent his opening remarks mischaracterizing Webb and his stances on the issues. Webb's opening remarks were pre-programmed and he failed to rebut any of Allen's points. Webb also failed to frame the foreign policy debate in a way which would clearly favor him. He didn't hammer Allen for his unquestioning support of Bush's foreign policy, and he didn't focus on Iran, North Korea, which are his strong suits and Allen's vulnerable topics. Webb also didn't stress his Virginia roots and Allens California/Chicago roots.

Allen did well to stress his pro-tax cut stance, even if it has zero regard for any other factors. If you ask Allen, lowering taxes is a great idea under all circumstances which begs the question, why do we even have taxes at all?

Webb OTOH, tried to stress the growing divide between the richest Americans who got a 3.9% tax cut, and regular Americans who got a 2% tax cut. Unfortunately, he didn't provide enough facts and figures to back that assertion, he merely repeated his questioning of the growing divide.

On Meet the Press, Allen surprised Webb by asking him if he had heard of some obscure Island off Virginia's coast. When it became apparent Webb didn't know about the Island, Allen scolderd him as if this were common knowledgem,when clearly, it is not. Webb tried to get revenge in this latest debate by asking Allen about some Asian Islands. Allen of course had never heard of the issue so Webb in turn scolded Allen. I guess this sort of sophistry does impress some people but I thought it was petty, and Webb stooped to Allen's level, as if one item of obscure knowledge makes a smart representative.

Towards the end of the debate, each candidate was suppoed to ask the other a question, get a response, and then have 40 seconds to rebut. Both candidates asked stupid questions that had little to do with the real issues. Allen asked about tax cuts, claiming that three million Virginians benefitted from them. Webb displayed a lack of knowledge on Virginia's economy, tax statistics. Allen's claims could have been rebutted effectively using real numbers, but Webb didn't have any.

During this part of the debate, the moderator allowed the candidates to have an incoherent argument that had zero focus. It was embarrassing.

The moderator also asked Webb several questions about Allen's racist past, the macaca incident etc. Webb was not interested in the mud slinging so I thought that was a bonus to Webb. He came to talk about the reall issues, and the moderator kept asking him stupid questions about Allen's noose, the confederate flag, Macaca, etc. It got old real fast.

Webb also showed a real conservative streak. Hopefully, he knows what he is doing and this will garner support from the conservative commonwealth. Webb is largely against affirmative action, and he is stubborn so even as a Dem he refused to change his stance on that issue. Webb also supported certain aspects of the recent tax cuts that he described as "quite reasonable." Webb also is a firm believer that the military, and not the politicians, should make certain decisions, such as a Womans role in combat. The 1979 article he wrote titled "Women Can't Fight" has come back to haunt him and rightfully so.

Allen was his typical self. He spoke in vague political jargen that is taylored to be innoffensive if not meaningless. I'd say Allen go the better end of this debate in the eyes of most Virginians, but it wasn't a home run, just a base hit.

[Thanos]

GOD help us here in Va.:doh:

[The Sir]

That was the most pathetic, awkward, and sophmoric debate I've ever seen. The moderator was horrible, Allen was horrible, and even though I am a Webb supporter, he was horrible too.

Allen spent his opening remarks mischaracterizing Webb and his stances on the issues. Webb's opening remarks were pre-programmed and he failed to rebut any of Allen's points. Webb also failed to frame the foreign policy debate in a way which would clearly favor him. He didn't hammer Allen for his unquestioning support of Bush's foreign policy, and he didn't focus on Iran, North Korea, which are his strong suits and Allen's vulnerable topics. Webb also didn't stress his Virginia roots and Allens California/Chicago roots.

Allen did well to stress his pro-tax cut stance, even if it has zero regard for any other factors. If you ask Allen, lowering taxes is a great idea under all circumstances which begs the question, why do we even have taxes at all?

Webb OTOH, tried to stress the growing divide between the richest Americans who got a 3.9% tax cut, and regular Americans who got a 2% tax cut. Unfortunately, he didn't provide enough facts and figures to back that assertion, he merely repeated his questioning of the growing divide.

On Meet the Press, Allen surprised Webb by asking him if he had heard of some obscure Island off Virginia's coast. When it became apparent Webb didn't know about the Island, Allen scolderd him as if this were common knowledgem,when clearly, it is not. Webb tried to get revenge in this latest debate by asking Allen about some Asian Islands. Allen of course had never heard of the issue so Webb in turn scolded Allen. I guess this sort of sophistry does impress some people but I thought it was petty, and Webb stooped to Allen's level, as if one item of obscure knowledge makes a smart representative.

Towards the end of the debate, each candidate was suppoed to ask the other a question, get a response, and then have 40 seconds to rebut. Both candidates asked stupid questions that had little to do with the real issues. Allen asked about tax cuts, claiming that three million Virginians benefitted from them. Webb displayed a lack of knowledge on Virginia's economy, tax statistics. Allen's claims could have been rebutted effectively using real numbers, but Webb didn't have any.

During this part of the debate, the moderator allowed the candidates to have an incoherent argument that had zero focus. It was embarrassing.

The moderator also asked Webb several questions about Allen's racist past, the macaca incident etc. Webb was not interested in the mud slinging so I thought that was a bonus to Webb. He came to talk about the reall issues, and the moderator kept asking him stupid questions about Allen's noose, the confederate flag, Macaca, etc. It got old real fast.

Webb also showed a real conservative streak. Hopefully, he knows what he is doing and this will garner support from the conservative commonwealth. Webb is largely against affirmative action, and he is stubborn so even as a Dem he refused to change his stance on that issue. Webb also supported certain aspects of the recent tax cuts that he described as "quite reasonable." Webb also is a firm believer that the military, and not the politicians, should make certain decisions, such as a Womans role in combat. The 1979 article he wrote titled "Women Can't Fight" has come back to haunt him and rightfully so.

Allen was his typical self. He spoke in vague political jargen that is taylored to be innoffensive if not meaningless. I'd say Allen go the better end of this debate in the eyes of most Virginians, but it wasn't a home run, just a base hit.

I thought the questions asked were alright, maybe not the ones by them, but overall the questions were pretty good. Clearly neither one of them were captain of their debate teams, but at least I feel like I can trust Webb a little more than Allen. Allen just comes off as a big time liar, but I guess all politicians are, he just doesn't hide it well.

What was your beef with the moderator?

[Midnight Judges]

I thought the questions asked were alright, maybe not the ones by them, but overall the questions were pretty good. Clearly neither one of them were captain of their debate teams, but at least I feel like I can trust Webb a little more than Allen. Allen just comes off as a big time liar, but I guess all politicians are, he just doesn't hide it well.

What was your beef with the moderator?

The part where candidates aske each other questions got out of hand. That's on the moderator because he didn't hold them to the format and allowed it to become an incoherent free-for-all. It was like something you would see on FOX news. Also, one macaca question, and one question about Webbs 1979 article would have sufficed. Instead that seemed to have been the focus of the moderator along with the foley scandal.

Where were all the questions about the important issues of the Senate? Where were the social security questions? Geneva conventions questions? Torture policy was touched on but this is a huge issue-much more important than macacagate or Foleygate. I don't recall any questions on how to deal with Iran or Pakistan. Deficit spending? Campaign finance reform? Lobbyist reform? The list goes on.

Although I will say the minimum wage question was good.

[The Sir]

The part where candidates aske each other questions got out of hand. That's on the moderator because he didn't hold them to the format and allowed it to become an incoherent free-for-all. It was like something you would see on FOX news. Also, one macaca question, and one question about Webbs 1979 article would have sufficed. Instead that seemed to have been the focus of the moderator along with the foley scandal.

Where were all the questions about the important issues of the Senate? Where were the social security questions? Geneva conventions questions? Torture policy was touched on but this is a huge issue-much more important than macacagate or Foleygate. I don't recall any questions on how to deal with Iran or Pakistan. Deficit spending? Campaign finance reform? Lobbyist reform? The list goes on.

Although I will say the minimum wage question was good.

Yeah, you're right about that. And they weren't even trying to follow the 30 second allotment for a rebuttal. They would start their 30 seconds by asking the other guy a question. And he'd asnwer the question with a question of his own, back and forth. It was pretty sophomoric as you say.

I thought the lady on the panel asked about social security and deficit spending, kind of in the same question, and it never really got answered.

And was that minimum wage bill that Allen said he voted for, is that the same one that people were talking about on this board earlier this year?

Also, my favorite part is the way politicians, and they all do it, deal with these racism or sexist allegations.

"My secretary to the vice president of the department of treasury is a black... woman....and she's gay."

"I don't like women? Well, guess what, I had two grandmothers who were women, my mother was a woman, as was my sister, and so is my wife. How can you tell me I don't like women?"

Maybe that's not exactly how it went, but it's like they start running down the list of all the black people or women they've ever known in their life. Webb was even counting them off on his finger.

And did you notice, Allen and his wife still will not deny that he uses the N-word. He says, "I can tell you that I'm not a racist". Or she says, "The man I married is loving, caring man" They never come out and say no.

[Air Force Cane]

Anyone want to bet that Allen wins over Webb?

[The Sir]

Anyone want to bet that Allen wins over Webb?

If you give me Allen, most definitely. Hard to imagine an incumbent republican in VA not getting reelected. Maybe that's just because I live in such a military dominated area of Virginia, but I can't see it.

[Zen-like Todd]

Anyone want to bet that Allen wins over Webb?

Allen will likely win, but his 2008 hopes have taken an enormous beating. He was supposed to win this race by 25 points, and he'll probably wind up winning by 4.

[heyholetsgogrant]

Also, my favorite part is the way politicians, and they all do it, deal with these racism or sexist allegations.

"My secretary to the vice president of the department of treasury is a black... woman....and she's gay."

"I don't like women? Well, guess what, I had two grandmothers who were women, my mother was a woman, as was my sister, and so is my wife. How can you tell me I don't like women?"

Maybe that's not exactly how it went, but it's like they start running down the list of all the black people or women they've ever known in their life. Webb was even counting them off on his finger.

And did you notice, Allen and his wife still will not deny that he uses the N-word. He says, "I can tell you that I'm not a racist". Or she says, "The man I married is loving, caring man" They never come out and say no.

I feel really friggin bad for people in Virginia that they have to choose between two awful candidates...one hates women and the other hates foreigners and African Americans

-Grant

[heyholetsgogrant]

Allen will likely win, but his 2008 hopes have taken an enormous beating. He was supposed to win this race by 25 points, and he'll probably wind up winning by 4.

Not gonna happen in 2008, not a chance in Hell...The macaca thing, his ancestory denial, actions he did in high school, the confederate brothers thing, and the possible repeated use of the "N" word did him in....just too much dirt, heck thats way more than Bush when he was elected president.

-Grant

[SkinsHokieFan]

Allen will likely win, but his 2008 hopes have taken an enormous beating. He was supposed to win this race by 25 points, and he'll probably wind up winning by 4.

Did anyone really want to see Allen running for prez?

I am as partisan as anyone, and have had a favorable opinion of Mr. Allen in the past (because my impressions are based on from meeting him several times and actually talking to him, although I can't really say I do now after all this mularkey) and I still never thought of him as presidential matieral

[SkinsHokieFan]

I feel really friggin bad for people in Virginia that they have to choose between two awful candidates...one hates women and the other hates foreigners and African Americans

-Grant

Although poor MD is about to kick out a decent governor and put the mayor of heroin city in the governor's mansion

MD is soon gonna become Deleware to me, a few miles on 95 while I am driving up to New York

[Zen-like Todd]

Did anyone really want to see Allen running for prez?

I am as partisan as anyone, and have had a favorable opinion of Mr. Allen in the past (because my impressions are based on from meeting him several times and actually talking to him, although I can't really say I do now after all this mularkey) and I still never thought of him as presidential matieral

Oh, he very much intended to run.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Oh, he very much intended to run.

I agree with that notion. But come on, when a guy like me, who as I said had a very favorable opinion of him didn't think he was prez matieral, do you think he had a chance?

[Zen-like Todd]

I agree with that notion. But come on, when a guy like me, who as I said had a very favorable opinion of him didn't think he was prez matieral, do you think he had a chance?

I really don't know. I think he fancies himself as a Ronald Reagan type. It remains to be seen if guys like Giuliani and McCain can get past the primaries.

Interesting article published pre-macaca in the american spectator on just that.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10100

Funny that the article mentions yet another racial incident... from the 2000 campaign.

Lizza also reported the details of a graffiti stunt that was revealed during Allen's 2000 Senate campaign. Allen and his friends spray painted his high school with anti-white graffiti the night before Palos Verdes was to face a predominantly black basketball team. Allen denies that the graffiti was "racially tinged." Patrick Campbell, a classmate of Allen's, confirmed the details of the incident to TAS.

These days, Allen isn't proud of the vandalism. "He admits that he was rebellious, and he wishes he'd never been involved in that school prank," John Reid, Senator Allen's communications director, said.

So what do George Allen's high school days mean? Some of his classmates believe he is racist. Lizza also resurrected the stories about Allen hanging a Confederate battle flag in his home and a noose in his law office. He reported that Allen, like many Virginians, opposed placing Martin Luther King Jr. Day on Lee-Jackson Day. He joined a "Richmond social club with a well-known history of discrimination" -- which could describe many Southern organizations, whether or not they discriminate today. In light of Allen's suburban childhood, Lizza finds it "truly improbable that someone with his upbringing ever acquired such backwoods tastes." Improbable, he implies, unless Allen is genuinely racist.

It's an old argument, particularly from those incapable of seeing the Confederate flag as a cultural symbol with many other connotations. Many good men regret parts of their childhoods. It's just possible that Allen was an ornery, rebellious coach's son who didn't like Southern California, and seized on the Southern culture he so enjoyed on family travels. When National Review's Rich Lowry asked him about becoming a Southern boy in California, Allen answered, "I don't know. I'm just the way I am. I don't worry about it."

Whatever his personal beliefs, Allen clearly regards racism as a political problem. He has participated in three "civil rights pilgrimages" in recent years. Last year, he led Republican efforts to pass a Senate resolution apologizing for not outlawing lynching.

For his part, Allen no longer seems enchanted with the Confederate flag. On the most recent pilgrimage in late April, he said, "I have learned over time what that flag means... To me, it didn't mean what it means to some people... I looked at it more as anti-establishment, renegade, rebelliousness. But I have learned... when you look at how that flag has been appropriated by hate groups. I don't ever want to hurt people or in any way make them feel bad about one thing or another."