We're turning into communist!!!(eminent domain story)

[zoony]

Larry...

I wouldn't be opposed to the high-tension lines b/w towns remaining above ground.

But the urban sprawl and tangle of wires, stoplights, and poles is just a huge eyesore. It is really terrible.

I have no doubt that there are certain applications where it doesn't make sense. But I cannot for one second believe that it isn't feasible to start burying most of these wires.

There are several US towns that already do this, and several countries around the world. So it is definitely possible. And VERY noticable. If you've ever been in a town where utilities are buried, you'll notice it almost instantly. It makes a 10000% difference imho.

And furthermore... just like most economies of scale... I'm sure the cost would come down significantly on underground burial the more it is done.

(Not to hi-jack this thread... but the discussion seems to have turned into better ways to improve the landscape of this country besides eminent domain... )

*edit*

speaking of the economics of burying cable... I would hope any extra costs incurred at the time of burying them would be weighed against never having to repair a downed line. Ever. (which I'm sure is a huge financial burden on power companies. A crew of 5 guys with full equipment making $30/hour overtime working thru the night to fix one pole. That has to add up over time)

[SnyderShrugged]

eminent domain is one of the most convoluted abuses of individual rights that exists. (right behind taxes)

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I'm talking about using that government $$ to bury power lines. That would go more towards creating a beautiful city than any of that other silliness. Wouldn't you agree?.....

Ummm, Not sure if you know this but the electric industry is regulated by the Federal and State governments. Therefore it would be very difficult to get the government to pay for that sort of thing at either level.

To be totally honest, I'm more concerned about reliability, safety and the electric system itself than whether or not you like seeing utility poles along the side of the road.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Yeah, underground power lines for neighborhood distribution are neater looking. And I'd suspect they're more reliable. but a couple of things.

Not as much more reliable as you might think. Believe me.

And when you start talking anout the "high tension" lines (Those things on the huge metal towers that run between towns):

Well, as I understand it, some of those lines run at such a high voltage that the power is capable uf jumping accross several inches of air. (And air is just about one of the best insulators there is.) The voltage is so high that the power actually repells itself (net result: only the outside edge of the wire actually carries power. The inner part of the wire isn't carrying as much.) Often, the "wire" on those towers is actually six wires, with insulators holding the wires in a hexagonal pattern a foot accross or so. (The power actually travels through the parts that're on the outside of the hexagon. Those six wires in forming a foot-wide hexagon will carry almost as much power as a foot-thich wire would.).

You're actually pretty much correct on your technical data there, Larry. Though the approach distance on many of those lines is measured in FEET, not inches.

Net result: In order to bury that wire, your "wire" would need to have a conductor a foot thick, with a rubber insulator over two feet thick (and I mean in radius), and the wires would have to be burried twenty feet apart from each other.

You are correct. Burying that sort of wire is not an effective concept.

In short, I'm not an engineer, but a cost of a million dollars a mile to bury that stuff wouldn't surprise me. (If it's possible at all.) Heck, it makes storing nuclear waste look easy.

Try BILLIONS of dollars. Simple residential underground electric construction can cost in excess of $100 liniar per foot. Now imagine what the cost of the more complex stuff is. zoony's idea is great in principle. However it is financially, safety and maintenance-wise not a reasonable option... no matter WHO is paying for it.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I have no doubt that there are certain applications where it doesn't make sense. But I cannot for one second believe that it isn't feasible to start burying most of these wires.

There are several US towns that already do this, and several countries around the world. So it is definitely possible. And VERY noticable. If you've ever been in a town where utilities are buried, you'll notice it almost instantly. It makes a 10000% difference imho.

Actually in a large number of urban areas most new residential developments ARE done underground. The problem would be trying to take all the existing lines and move them from overhead to underground locations. For multiple reasons. None of which are astetic in nature.

And furthermore... just like most economies of scale... I'm sure the cost would come down significantly on underground burial the more it is done.

Not really. Most of the cost of underground utility installation is material and that's not going to change very much.

speaking of the economics of burying cable... I would hope any extra costs incurred at the time of burying them would be weighed against never having to repair a downed line. Ever. (which I'm sure is a huge financial burden on power companies. A crew of 5 guys with full equipment making $30/hour overtime working thru the night to fix one pole. That has to add up over time)

LOL. Thanks. I needed that laugh. Never having to repair a line? Tell that to my boss who spent 28 straight hours in our Trouble Center dealing with almost exclusively UNDERGROUND utility issues here in Central Mass. due to our Biblical rain issues the last two weeks. In fact, in certain ways underground maintenance can be MORE difficult and expensive than overhead maintenance. And considerably more dangerous.

[The 12th Commandment]

I live in area of underground lines, both cable and electric, and it's nice. An added benefit is the lack of bird**** everywhere. I don't doubt, however, that the cost of going into pre-existing areas and doing it would be very prohibitive. It seems that when other underground work was done, they might combine existing rights of way and save some money that way. I know they're always replacing sewer lines here so I would guess that that goes on elsewhere too. The RR's work in conjunction with pipeline companies very frequently and it seems to be a win win sitch there.

Ihearts mentioning of the bundle of rights involved with real estate made me think back to every appraisal class I took in my previous career. They are six, the right to sell, lease, use, give away, enter and refuse to do any of the others.

And Mass, private electric companies have the right of condemnation too, it's not just easements that they use. Although easements can be acquired via condemnation as well. Don't know about your company, but I've seen substations, and high voltage lines acquired that way. Condemnation is very expensive though, and as private companies that need to keep an eye on the bottom line, electric utilities are far less likely to use that mechanism than local government. I also think that the local government actually has to be the condemning authority. I have seen it happen though.