Combatant Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 LOL. The true sportsman is the one who doesn't delude himself into thinking that WINNING isn't the true (and only) goal of being out there in the first place. I used to follow NASCAR more than I do now. I followed Bill Elliott, but since his retirement I haven't really found a driver or team that I could really catch on to and follow. BTW - That difference between flirting with the rules and breaking them is quite simple.... WHETHER YOU GET CAUGHT OR NOT!!!! I don't have any children and don't want any. If I did have any, they would be taught that WINNING is what's important. Nothing more. Nothing less. Sorry, but it's the reality of life. Second Place is First Loser and always will be. I am not arguing that winning isn't important, but am arguing how you do it. You said you follow NASCAR then you know there is a lot of grey areas in their rules. Creates advantages within those grey areas are flirting with the rules, it's not illegal and not exactly legal. That's why I like it. Back to the winning point...I hate losing, but don't want to win knowing that I cheated. There's no self accomplishment (with me atleast) that I won while cheating because you didn't win fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterwagen Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Sports aren't about fun. They never have been and never will be. They're about WINNING!!! That's the only thing that matters. As a wise man once told me... "If you aren't looking for every possible advantage in every situation, you're not really playing to WIN. Playing fair is playing to lose." For professional athletes, that's true, since that is what they do for a living. For fans, sports is for amusement. If it's not enjoyable, there is no point to it. Those of us posting here are fans, not athletes paid to win. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I am not arguing that winning isn't important, but am arguing how you do it. That's fine. I respect that you've got a different viewpoint on the subject. I disagree with it, but I respect it. You said you follow NASCAR then you know there is a lot of grey areas in their rules. Creates advantages within those grey areas are flirting with the rules, it's not illegal and not exactly legal. That's why I like it. I'm not enough of a "car guy" to understand most of the "grey areas" in NASCAR's rules. Back to the winning point...I hate losing, but don't want to win knowing that I cheated. There's no self accomplishment (with me atleast) that I won while cheating because you didn't win fairly. Again, that's fine. In my mind the WINNING is the important thing. It always has been and always will be. As I discussed earlier, "fair play" is the road to losing so far as I'm concerned. BTW - I just noticed the "location" listed under your name. Thank you for your service to this country. Stay safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatant Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I guess we can agree to disagree. BTW - I just noticed the "location" listed under your name. Thank you for your service to this country. Stay safe. Thank you, appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 For professional athletes, that's true, since that is what they do for a living. For fans, sports is for amusement. If it's not enjoyable, there is no point to it. Those of us posting here are fans, not athletes paid to win. Try again. How about this.... Sports has NEVER been an amusement for me. It's as serious as a gunfight so far as I am concerned. To me fandom is a two-way street... If I put my time, energy and money into supporting a team, I expect results. Return on investment, if you will. I have no interest in wasting 3 hours every Sunday afternoon, and untold more hours during the week and in the offseason paying attention to a team that isn't interested in giving me some return on that investment. Since amusement isn't a return so far as I am concerned, that return has to be WINNING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Sports aren't about fun. They never have been and never will be. They're about WINNING!!! That's the only thing that matters. Then I guess I shouldn't have played sports in high school, since abilitywise, I was never going to win. I guess I also shouldn't run marathons, since I don't have much of a chance of winning. Sure, winning is important, but every year in the NFL, there are 29 losers. You better at least enjoy what you are doing, or else you are going to drive yourself nuts. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I guess we can agree to disagree. We're going to have to, since I doubt I've done anything to change your mind on the subject and you're not going to change mine either. Thank you, appreciate it. You're welcome. Some member of my family has been involved in just about every major military conflict the residents of this continent have been involved in since the French & Indian War (pre-Revolutionary War) so I have an idea of what your service means. Again, thank you and stay safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterwagen Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 How about this....Sports has NEVER been an amusement for me. It's as serious as a gunfight so far as I am concerned. To me fandom is a two-way street... If I put my time, energy and money into supporting a team, I expect results. Return on investment, if you will. I have no interest in wasting 3 hours every Sunday afternoon, and untold more hours during the week and in the offseason paying attention to a team that isn't interested in giving me some return on that investment. Since amusement isn't a return so far as I am concerned, that return has to be WINNING. I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. You DESIRE winning, because you ENJOY it. What you just said is like saying "I don't go to see a movie for enjoyment, but because I want to see a great movie" - they are different ways of saying the same thing. There is no other point to sports, at least as far as the NFL is concerned. For example, you could look at political (and thus possible moral) implications if we were still in a cold war and international sports were involved, but the NFL is far from having any kind of meaningful affect on anything. Since WINNING has no effect on any other practical or philosophical area of life, the only possible point to desiring it is for enjoyment. Explain how this is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Then I guess I shouldn't have played sports in high school, since abilitywise, I was never going to win. I guess I also shouldn't run marathons, since I don't have much of a chance of winning. . I am not going to tell you what you should do or should have done in the past. I will tell you that my lack of ability and my "win or don't play" attitude were major reasons why I didn't compete very much in youth sports when I was a kid and why I still don't as an adult. Sure, winning is important, but every year in the NFL, there are 29 losers. You better at least enjoy what you are doing, or else you are going to drive yourself nuts. Actually, there are 31 losers every year in the NFL. The only team that truly wins is the Super Bowl Champion. Everyone else wasted a whole lot of time and energy for 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Man, Mass_Skins, you cant lead a very fun life. But hey, to each his own I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 How about this....Sports has NEVER been an amusement for me. It's as serious as a gunfight so far as I am concerned. To me fandom is a two-way street... If I put my time, energy and money into supporting a team, I expect results. Return on investment, if you will. I have no interest in wasting 3 hours every Sunday afternoon, and untold more hours during the week and in the offseason paying attention to a team that isn't interested in giving me some return on that investment. Since amusement isn't a return so far as I am concerned, that return has to be WINNING. Your outlook sucks. No offense, of course... but if you're so intense and concerned about winning you have to lead an incredibly disappointing life. EDIT: I got beaten to the punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Your outlook sucks.No offense, of course... but if you're so intense and concerned about winning you have to lead an incredibly disappointing life. No offense taken. It can be very disappointing at times. Which is why I do not get involved in very many competitive endeavours or follow a whole lot of sports teams anymore. It generally isn't worth the limited return on investment I get from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. You DESIRE winning, because you ENJOY it. What you just said is like saying "I don't go to see a movie for enjoyment, but because I want to see a great movie" - they are different ways of saying the same thing. There is no other point to sports, at least as far as the NFL is concerned. For example, you could look at political (and thus possible moral) implications if we were still in a cold war and international sports were involved, but the NFL is far from having any kind of meaningful affect on anything. Since WINNING has no effect on any other practical or philosophical area of life, the only possible point to desiring it is for enjoyment. Explain how this is not true. Let's see if I can explain it a little better..... I see fandom as a two-way street. If I invest my time, money, energy, etc... in following and rooting for a team, I expect a return on that investment.... namely WINNING (as defined in a previous post). I don't see the sense in wasting that investment on a team or individual who is not going to give me a return on that investment. It's much more a business proposition than an enjoyment thing for me. It might also help if you understood that I don't celebrate victories. They're the expected result and therefore noting to get overly emotional about (do you celebrate your car starting every morning?). Losing and/or "Not Losing" (as defined previously) are, however, a cause to question whether the return on investment is worth what's being put into it in the first place. As for the political side, I would agree with you if we were talking about baseball or football prior to 1994. However, the NFL became a political entity when, in 1993, it put in place a set of rules and policies based on the most abhorant political theory of our time.... Socialism. Especially when it became clear that teams would not be able to win unless they truly bought into that system whole-heartedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Actually, there are 31 losers every year in the NFL. The only team that truly wins is the Super Bowl Champion. Everyone else wasted a whole lot of time and energy for 6 months. Thanks for the correction. Course, if they wasted their time, then you "winner" wouldn't have anyone to play against, wouldn't they? See, winning is all the more sweeter when teams struggle and fight for it, rather than have it on a silver platter. A win isn't worth all that much against a patsy. Which is why winning against the Cowboys or the Giants was much sweeter than winning against the 49ers. Course, I don't expect you to understand that. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Thanks for the correction. No problem. Any time. Course, if they wasted their time, then you "winner" wouldn't have anyone to play against, wouldn't they?. There are always going to be teams that think they have what it takes to WIN, who don't. I'd like to see some serious contraction in the league to get rid of some teams that never will be WINNERS, but I doubt that's going to happen. See, winning is all the more sweeter when teams struggle and fight for it, rather than have it on a silver platter. A win isn't worth all that much against a patsy. Which is why winning against the Cowboys or the Giants was much sweeter than winning against the 49ers.Course, I don't expect you to understand that. Good, because you're not going to get me to agree with you there. Personally, I'll tke the San Fran blowout and the whipping we put on the Cowboys over all the "close" "wins" we had this season. The opponent doesn't matter, so long as you dominate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdarugar Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 When are we going to hear something new about this whole thing, somebody has got to know something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterwagen Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 When are we going to hear something new about this whole thing, somebody has got to know something...The only update I've heard was on ESPN radio sportscenter at the top of the hour where they said that there were two sessions today - the early one being one to discuss the percentage. Also said they had been meeting for 3 and a half hours straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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