Running Game Question

[redman]

I need some help here from those of us who have a greater and deeper technical knowledge of offense than I do.

My question is, why is it that a team with a pass first offense cannot also have a power running attack?

So you understand what I mean, by pass-first I'm referring to an offensive philosophy that in general passes to set up the run. Examples of this, other than Spurrier's of course, would be Walsh's WCO, and also Martz's offense.

By a power running attack, I'm referring to an attack that uses running plays like we've seen in Washington the last three years - dives, off tackle runs, and pitches - as opposed to the finesse running that we see in the WCO - draws and traps.

There are multiple bases for this question. As a Redskins homer, I'm concerned with the thought that we've seen our last Counter Trey, our signature play. As a fan of Stephen Davis, I'm not convinced that the reliance upon draws and traps plays to his strengths as a runner, and if that's true that means that we're wasting the talent of the best offensive player on this team. I'm also concerned because finesse teams sometimes get overpowered at the LOS. Good, solid run-blocking allows linemen go on the offensive against their adversaries at the LOS, which is something that most linemen seem to like and something that builds their confidence, wears down the opposing line, and helps relieve QB pressure IMHO. I also like a power running game in bad weather over a finesse game.

So, why is it that Spurrier must not only insist upon changing the passing offense (and thank goodness for it, but that's difficult enough) but also the running offense as well? And mind you, this is a running offense that has excelled for three years through thick and thin. Is it so hard to both have a pass-first offense and a power running game?

[Awesome]

Hmm, excellent point. One would think that SS is smart enough to be able to realize what style suits his players abilities. I think we'll see the passing game evolve into one that suits bigger receivers, rather than quick, smaller ones b/c that's what we have in Gardner, Thompson, McCants, and Doering.

I for one will be very upset if Davis gets left out of the offense this year, and so far, its looking that way. I love the power running game and watching Davis and the O-line smash people in the mouth. Things are very different in December in D.C. than in Gainesville and we're gonna need a solid, tough running game to be successful in the last 1/4 of the season.

But, deep down, something tells me that SS knows what he;s doing. Maybe he's throwing the lights out in the preseason so that he'll catch people off guard when Davis punches them in the face on first down come the regular season

[MRMADD]

The only reason the WCO seems to have lots of draws and traps instead of straight-up power running is that they're running out of a 'pass' formation.

If the Skins threw on first and second downs in 3 WR sets with one RB in the backfield to block, and then subbed a FB and a couple TEs on 3rd down, it'd be a pretty good indication that they intended to run.

Teams like the Rams do a good job of disguising this. You don't know from the formation whether Faulk will run it, catch it out of the backfield, or block. It forces the defense to cover more of the field, and keeps them from putting 8 men in the box to stop him.

But that's the trouble -- the power running game you're talking about, with a couple of tight ends and a lead blocker, says to the defense, "Here we come up the middle -- try to stop us." That was the glory of smash-mouth, Joe Gibbs, counter-trey Redskins football -- everyone knew they were gonna run it, and they still couldn't stop 'em.

So while the Skins might not have a 'power running game' this year in that sense, Stephen Davis shouldn't have any trouble getting his 1,000+ yards in this offense. Hell, he'll be happy to have the linebackers backing off into coverage and the safeties hanging back when he bursts through the hole.

Besides, it's always power running when Big Country has the ball.

[NavyDave]

Joe Gibbus Maximus did have a pass first offense to set up the run and it did feature a power back and I think the fact that we have Gardner who can bench 300 plus pounds with D Thompson and maybe D Mac means we have big WR that should be able to block downfield and occupy a linebacker enough for S Davis to do damage from the 3 wide receiver sets.

[redman]

Originally posted by MRMADD

The only reason the WCO seems to have lots of draws and traps instead of straight-up power running is that they're running out of a 'pass' formation.

If the Skins threw on first and second downs in 3 WR sets with one RB in the backfield to block, and then subbed a FB and a couple TEs on 3rd down, it'd be a pretty good indication that they intended to run.

* * *

But that's the trouble -- the power running game you're talking about, with a couple of tight ends and a lead blocker, says to the defense, "Here we come up the middle -- try to stop us." That was the glory of smash-mouth, Joe Gibbs, counter-trey Redskins football -- everyone knew they were gonna run it, and they still couldn't stop 'em. . .

I respectfully disagree with the assumption that power runs must be run out of power running formations with two TE's and/or a FB subbed in. That was certainly a Marty-esque mentality, but better offensive coaches haven't subscribed to it.

Gibbs' offense was notorious for being able to run any play out of any formation using a lot of pre-snap motion to disguise the play from the defense and/or to create mismatches. Starting in the mid-80's, he almost never used a FB as a lead blocker. Instead, he used the "one-back" offense, with a TE who acted as an H-back (usually Don Warren and then later Terry Orr and Terry Middleton), and 3 WR's, Clark, Sanders and Monk. If he wanted a lead blocker out of this offense, Warren would either line up in the backfield, or would go in motion and would be between the tackles when the ball was snapped so he could take on a D-lineman or linebacker.

This was the base offense, although he would occasionally sub a second TE, Clint Didier, in for the third WR. However, Didier's strength was as a pass-catching TE, so that was hardly a tip-off that we were going to run the ball on the next play.

So, I'm back to my original question. I see a lot of 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB sets in the Spurrier offense. Why is it that such a formation must rely exclusively upon draws and traps in Spurrier's offense? Is Spurrier's extensive passing game background and emphasis such that he does not understand how to run a power running offense? Can anyone explain this to me?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by redman

I see a lot of 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB sets in the Spurrier offense. Why is it that such a formation must rely exclusively upon draws and traps in Spurrier's offense? Is Spurrier's extensive passing game background and emphasis such that he does not understand how to run a power running offense? Can anyone explain this to me?

redman,

I'd try to explain it, but I'm bound up with duct tape by the forum thought police. I'm typing this with my nose . . . .

The reason is -- ack! -- they've seen me!

[redman]

ASF, I have no problem reading your input on such things, it's just that the (inevitable?) anti-Gardner/Helton references grow tiresome. Fire away!

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by redman

ASF, I have no problem reading your input on such things, it's just that the (inevitable?) anti-Gardner/Helton references grow tiresome. Fire away!

Hey, I'm actually being nice to Gardner lately.

The reason is because the team is optimizing for pass-blocking linemen. Power blocking and sophisticated (Counter Trey style) pulls require accomplished run-blocking linemen, or at least an OL coach who can teach those skills.

Like you, I think this is a hideous mistake, a waste of Davis, and a waste of the lessons of the Gibbs era. And I'm not convinced that the supposed benefits (Fort Knox pass blocking) are materializing, except that we haven't given up a lot of sacks. To my eyes, the QBs facing the Steeler starting defense had their rhythm disrupted on many plays, breaking the QB/WR timing.

(I have no problem with the pass-first offense. But this trivializing of the importance of power running will bite this team in the @ss. I fear we may have to lose in the playoffs for lack of power running before this lesson takes hold -- and then we have to wait for a new interior OL or OL coach to be installed. By then, who knows where Davis will be or how productive he will remain.)

[redman]

ASF, you haven't really answered my question but instead have essentially begged the question (likewise for everyone else who has responded). I already know that we've opted in favor of linemen for whom pass blocking is a strength. My question is "why?" Why did we opt in favor of guards like Rod Jones over Ben Coleman?

Again, while different o-linemen have different strengths of course, you can either fundamentally do your job or you can't. To use the Coleman example, while I acknowledge that his strength is in run blocking, I've never heard that he was a liability as a pass blocker. Indeed, he used to play OT, a position that faces some of the best pass rushers in the game and which requires a great amount of agility to successfully play.

I ask my question because my experience has been that this use of finesse running plays need not be the case, even in formations that appear weighted towards passing, like the "one-back" offense described above.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by redman

ASF, you haven't really answered my question but instead have essentially begged the question (likewise for everyone else who has responded). I already know that we've opted in favor of linemen for whom pass blocking is a strength. My question is "why?" Why did we opt in favor of guards like Rod Jones over Ben Coleman?

redman, this is like asking how long I've been beating my wife.

You said you wanted my input, but that you were tired of my bashing Helton.

Now, is it apparent yet why I cannot directly answer your question?

As for Rod Jones in particular -- beneficiary of a $500K Redskin signing bonus -- the Bengals cut him previously. And the Bengals just cut the guy who beat out Jones. That should give you an idea of the "quality" of Jones and the ability of, uh, "our team" to evaluate OL talent.

[redman]

Helton is not the source of my question, although he's obviously relevant to the discussion. This is a question about Spurrier's system, which Spurrier ran even when Helton was coaching at another university. See the difference?

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by redman

Helton is not the source of my question, although he's obviously relevant to the discussion. This is a question about Spurrier's system, which Spurrier ran even when Helton was coaching at another university. See the difference?

I do, and the question is better answered by the Gator brethren.

I will say that what worked in college won't necessarily work against NFL DLs and LBs, when it comes to the run. Also, draws are better run by guys like Barry Sanders than power rushers like Davis.

What's sad is that Spurrier has done the hard work with his passing offense, which is brilliant. It wouldn't break his passing offense to combine it with some one-back Gibbs-style power rushing -- which is the entire point of your thread. Great points.

[codeorama]

Redman,

Remember the Dan Marino days in Miami, they could never run. I think the running game has much more to do with the o line than who the running back is...(terrell Davis 6th rd pick... heck steven Davis has been around since the Heath Shuler days and if I remember correctly, even offered to play full back one year) I figure it must be hard for linemen to excel at both power runblocking and passprotection. SS's offense at least in the past, uses alot of draw plays and misdirection that takes advantage of the defenses pass rush. One thing for sure is this. SS has been quoted as saying that his offense is based on passing against a run defense and running against a pass defense. Can you imagine SD running against 5 or 6 defensive backs? that could put up huge yards.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by codeorama

Can you imagine SD running against 5 or 6 defensive backs? that could put up huge yards.

That's the fantasy.

Here's the reality: if Davis can't get past the line of scrimmage, it won't matter if the defense has playboy bunnies playing nickel defense.

[redman]

I appreciate the response code. I have a couple of thoughts, both of which I'm really reiterating.

I don't agree with the premise that an offensive line must be either a good run blocking line or a good pass blocking line but not both. Gibbs (and yes, he benefitted from some good if not great linemen over the years) demonstrated that. We've seen powerful run-blocking lines sucessfully pass block in recent years in Oakland, Jacksonville, Minnesota and New Orleans.

There just seems to be a conscious choice to opt in favor of pass blocking skills over run blocking skills when building this line, and I don't think it's by accident. Instead, someone - who I can only conclude is either Spurrier himself or someone acting with Spurrier's blessing - is making a scheme-based choice there. Why?

My second point is that I happen to view that the Denver and Miami teams over the last 15-20 years show that the RB is a vitally important consideration in the success of the running game. Those two teams are remarkably similar in that regard. Denver and Miami, despite being led by two HoF QB's in Elway and Marino, were a combined 0-4 in the Super Bowl when they were handing the ball off to mediocre NFL RB's like Sammy Winder, Woody Bennett, and Tony Nathan. It took Terrell Davis (and the addition of an excellent o-line coach Alex Gibbs) to make Denver a champion.

We already have an excellent RB in Stephen Davis, who has excelled even when defenses have known that he was all we had. So again, why are we opting out of playing to this strength?

[dchogs]

from ASF: if Davis can't get past the line of scrimmage, it won't matter if the defense has playboy bunnies playing nickel defense.

:laugh: :laugh: :doh: :doh:

man, that's funny and scary at the same time. don't know if i should laugh or not...

[codeorama]

Here is the delimma.... Some coaches eg: Shula and Parcels take the talent they have and adapt their offense around that talent. Some such as Spurrier, have a scheme and will get the talent to match that scheme (see Jimmy Johnson in Dallas... the offense wasn't really his baby, but you get the point, when JJ went to Miami, he tore down the Marino passing attack and turned it into a Defense led running, or try to run at least, attack)

Spurrier isn't going to ditch his coaching style, he will seek out the players to make it work. He pretty much said the reason he left UF was to "see if his style of offense would work in the NFL". I think that's why many of us are concerned that SD may not fit in. It really depends on how much Spurrier is willing to adapt his style of offense.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan

That's the fantasy.

Here's the reality: if Davis can't get past the line of scrimmage, it won't matter if the defense has playboy bunnies playing nickel defense.

Steve Spurrier himself made the comment about SD running wild against a passing defense. If it comes true or not remains to be seen.

[Funkyalligator]

I think that Spurrier is abstaining from running during the preseason because he realizes that is what people expect from him. He wants to get the pass attack down because the running game is already ready. He has a known quantity in SD and so he feels it is best to test out the WR and QBs a lot more than the running game. He will surprise a lot of people by having a good power running game, I think he is just putting up a smoke screen so teams don't prepare for a good running game.

[codeorama]

Funky, that would be really cool, the only thing is during training camp, they practiced the run about as much as Quincy Carter spoke clearly..... not too much.

[GatorRob]

In my experiences with Spurrier at Florida, when he had a power RB, he tended to run many off-tackle and other power-type runs. With Earnest Graham (a power runner) last year, the Gators were 10-0. Without him, they were 0-2. This was no accident.

Fred Taylor and Errict Recht were powerful runners who thrived with SOS. That being said, there are a HUGE number of Gator fans that perpetually lament the fact that he does not run ENOUGH, that most of the runs are in the 2d half to run down the clock, and/or that he abandons the run when he gets behind. All three of these assertions are basically, although not universally, true.

My hope is that he knows what kind of talent he has with Davis and use his talents to the fullest. A big guy like him will not be able to accelerate quickly enough to be consistently successful in trap and draw plays, and he will also have to improve his pass-catching skills. But the upside potential is mammoth!

Davis, to his great credit, seems to have a great attitude about all of this. I am excited that SOS has such a tremendous RB in his arsenal. Just don't be too disappointed if he runs 100 times less than last year.

HTTR!!

[Sailor]

So, I'm back to my original question. I see a lot of 3 WR, 1 TE and 1 RB sets in the Spurrier offense. Why is it that such a formation must rely exclusively upon draws and traps in Spurrier's offense? Is Spurrier's extensive passing game background and emphasis such that he does not understand how to run a power running offense? Can anyone explain this to me?

Redman -

I am not an expert, so rather than speak with authority, I will just speculate a little.

I don't think there is any reason why a pass oriented offense can't also have a power running game. I think the reason why you you see the other types of running plays is because they take advantage of the weaknesses of the defense.

Take a draw play for example. The reason that it is effective is that several of the defensive linemen and linebackers are deep in the offensive backfield. When the runner takes off with the ball, they are either behind him or to the side of him and not in a position to make a play.

Now you could have the RB just charge into the line, but why do you want to bang heads with all those defensive guys when you can just give them a couple of seconds and they will take themselves out of the play?

For this to work, of course, the defense must be expecting a pass and must be rushing and blitzing.

[redman]

*bump*

You can't knock me off the first page that easily! Dammit, I want answers!

[cooway]

I have followed the Gators throughout my life and one thing you have to understand about the SS ofense, is that your offensive linemen take on the mentality of pass protection, which is somewhat submissive in nature. The first thing they do at the snap of the ball is immediately start retreating in to a pass protective position. Defensive linemen are pushing up field and the o-linemen are slowly being pushed backwards. This activity psycologically begins to become habit forming for the o-linemen and in turn can make it difficult for them to revert back to a power running attack on certain plays. Power running backs in a system like this can be limited by the type of run blocking they receive up front.

Thats why its important to have a back that is quick and elusive.

Spurrier is the most entertaing coach to ever coach.....but sometimes you will become annoyed with the lack of a power running game when you absolutely need it most.

Go Gators!

[GatorChub]

I would like to add my 2 cents here for what they are worth. Particularly in regard to the adverse weather condition issue. Although we don't get much cold in Florida, we get plenty of rain. There was a Flordia-Georga game played in the early 90's where Eric Rhett had a career day. SOS knows when to switch gears and pull out the big cleats. That being said, he has publicly stated that he is of the opinion that bad weather favors the WR's because they know where they are going and the DB's do not.

If you look back at the most successful periods of the SOS offense at Florida he had a good running game. He also knows SD very well. I think SD was on an Auburn team that beat us twice. SOS will enjoy finally getting to use that weapon instead of having it used against him.