A serious ? about Joe Wilson

[Kilmer17]

Just for fun, how many people here would LOVE to be ambassador to Sao Tome?

Talk about fun. Id rather be ambassador to Cayman Islands, but that aint half bad.

[chomerics]

Well, I just got finished with Wilson's book and I have all the backround info you are looking for Kilmer.

1. He was an ambassador's aid to Niger in the 80's and he was also an Ambassadoor to two other African countries in the 90's. He knew the people in charge of Niger personally, as he has met the leader of the country as well as a number of his staff numerous times.

2. He was the Ambassador's aid in Iraq when they invaded Kuwait. He helped evacuate over 800 American hostages Iraq took, as well as the entire embasy from Kuwait after the invasion. He met Saddam Hussein personally, and had daily conversations with Tarik Abib (I believe that was his name), One of Saddam's right hand men.

3. He was contacted by the CIA, not through his wife. She had absolutely nothing to do with it. He went to Niger as a favor for the CIA without being paid.

4. He was not the only one to come back with the allegation that the Niger claims were false, there were also TWO other reports, including one from a general in the Army which stated the same thing.

5. The British press printed an article in late June which talked about his trip, and he was starting to hear rumors about what happened, so he wanted to set the record straight.

6. He had personal conversations with Brent Scowcroft BEFORE he printed the NY Times article.

7. He contributed to GWB's campaign, as well as Gore & Kerry's.

8. His wife was in deep cover, and even Wilson's family did not know her real identity.

9. Rice patently lied numerous times on various political shows, as the administration continued to make claims that the allegations were not false. She said she did not hear of the report (even though there were three) and she made other obvious false statements all made to dupe the American public.

10. Rice also called up Scowcroft in 02' and asked "How could you do that to us?" in relation to his WSJ op-ed piece calling for NOT invading Iraq. Rice was a Scowcroft protege, and Scowcroft has not spoken to neither Rice nor Bush since.

If there is anything else you want to know just ask. I just read it during my last trip to Japan last week, so everything is still pretty fresh in my head

BTW, here is his book http://www.politicsoftruth.com/

[chomerics]

He never served as ambassador to Niger, and was only an amabassador for G. W. H. Bush, who had one term, so it couldn't have been "over a decade."

He was an assistant to the ambassador, just like in Iraq.

BTW, he was such a great ambassador, here are the two vital postings he received:

The Gabonese Republic or Gabon, is a nation of west central Africa. It borders on Equatorial Guinea, Cameroon, Republic of the Congo and the Gulf of Guinea.

The Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe is a tiny two-island nation in the Gulf of Guinea.

Ummm, those ARE two of the better spots to be an ambassador, and he also REQUESTED that he go to Africa because he loved it. The Peace Corps was turned over to his country during his tenure (Gabon), and he oversaw a $60million dollar facility which served as the entry point for all peace corps voulenteers heading into Africa.

He was also the personal escort of Clinton during his trip to Africa.

[Art Monk Fan]

Well, I just got finished with Wilson's book and I have all the backround info you are looking for Kilmer.

I am utterly shocked and amazed, who ever would have thought that Wilson's own book would actually back up each and every one of his claims? I stand in awe of your immense research skills, Chom. You are most definitely this boards most trusted arbiter of unbiased truth. :doh:

[chomerics]

Just for fun, how many people here would LOVE to be ambassador to Sao Tome?

Talk about fun. Id rather be ambassador to Cayman Islands, but that aint half bad.

He was only on the island once during his tenure. He also underminded the french in Gabon, as it is one of France's teritories. Something like 2% of their GDP comes from the oil and exports of Gabon.

[visionary]

He was also the personal escort of Clinton during his trip to Africa.

That must have been akward....

Bill must have been getting a little desperate

[Kilmer17]

No offense chom, because Im sure some of those details are accurate, but Id prefer a source that's less one sided.

Sort of like you'd probably want someones accounts other than Scooter Libby's.

[Art Monk Fan]

Ummm, those ARE two of the better spots to be an ambassador, and he also REQUESTED that he go to Africa because he loved it. The Peace Corps was turned over to his country during his tenure (Gabon), and he oversaw a $60million dollar facility which served as the entry point for all peace corps voulenteers heading into Africa.

Nice spots, no doubt. Got the reward he requested? Good for him. Vital postings requiring the best and brightest? Sorry, no dice.

He was also the personal escort of Clinton during his trip to Africa.

Oh, that makes him totally trustworthy as he attacks a Republican administration! :doh:

[chomerics]

I am utterly shocked and amazed, who ever would have thought that Wilson's own book would actually back up each and every one of his claims? I stand in awe of your immense research skills, Chom. You are most definitely this boards most trusted arbiter of unbiased truth. :doh:

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously, I told Kilmer that I have just finished his book, and I am willing to answer any questions asked. I have everything still fresh in my brain, and I am willing to relay anything that he has stated in his book is he wants. How is that so bad?

When something comes up, where do YOU turn for answers? I go to the person himself, and see what HE has to say about the entire situation, I don't turn on the local propaganda station and see what THEY have to say.

[visionary]

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously, I told Kilmer that I have just finished his book, and I am willing to answer any questions asked. I have everything still fresh in my brain, and I am willing to relay anything that he has stated in his book is he wants. How is that so bad?

When something comes up, where do YOU turn for answers? I go to the person himself, and see what HE has to say about the entire situation, I don't turn on the local propaganda station and see what THEY have to say.

But you do admit that a lot of that is mostly his view of events...?

[chomerics]

No offense chom, because Im sure some of those details are accurate, but Id prefer a source that's less one sided.

Sort of like you'd probably want someones accounts other than Scooter Libby's.

Umm, you really DON'T want to know what he has to say about his actions? Seriously, every question you have so far raised has been anwered, and I have absolutely no reason to believe anything he stated was false. He was the victim in this affair, as well as his wife, but so far you have asked nothing about his personal opinion on the WH, only facts surrounding the trip.

Personally, I am really suprised people don't want to read what the story is about from the man who was directly at the front and center of it. That is ALWAYS where I go for my information, and if Scooter published a book, yes I would read it. I would want to know what HE has to say about it as well.

Hell, if you guys just wanted to know what the official Bush talking points were, why didn't you just save us all some time and say so. That way at least we would know you are only looking for one side of the argument.

[Kilmer17]

Great, than Im sure you also completely believe Bush, Rove, Cheney, Libby etc.

Right?

Or do you only apply that test to people you agree with?

[chomerics]

But you do admit that a lot of that is mostly his view of events...?

Ummm, well the entire book is an autobiography on his life, so of course they would be his version of the events. I wouldn't go to a pundit to read about his life, would you? There is maybe two chapters out of 500 pages on the incident, and none of those facts are really disputed anymore.

[Art Monk Fan]

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously, I told Kilmer that I have just finished his book, and I am willing to answer any questions asked. I have everything still fresh in my brain, and I am willing to relay anything that he has stated in his book is he wants. How is that so bad?

When something comes up, where do YOU turn for answers? I go to the person himself, and see what HE has to say about the entire situation, I don't turn on the local propaganda station and see what THEY have to say.

Nothing is wrong with me Chom. In his book Wilson claims his wife did nothing more than accompany him to a meeting. The Senate discovered an internal CIA memo in which she suggests his name for the mission and offers several arguments in his favor. He lied in his book to forward his agenda, plain and simple. Try a more credible source next time and I'll try and tone down my sarcasm -- you're a little touchy today, it seems.

[Kilmer17]

Also, the answers you gave to the questions I asked were what I was looking for. Specifics about the man.

The other answers you gave are the ones I tend to think were delivered through a slanted vision of what happened.

EX- I dont believe for a second that his wifes position played no part in his assignment.

[chomerics]

Great, than Im sure you also completely believe Bush, Rove, Cheney, Libby etc.

Right?

Or do you only apply that test to people you agree with?

Kilmer, what the hell are you talking about, do you even know what the book is about? Do you have a clue, or is everything so blindly partisan with you that you completely ignore any reference from the otherside?

What question have you posed so far in this thread COULD be spun? Seriously? Everything you have asked is biographical information on Wilson, and that is EXACTLY what the book was about. I told you I would gladly answer any questions, because everything is still fresh in my mind. Yet, you will completely ignore the direct source because of blind partisanship?!?

Man, I can not believe the reaction and beliefs on some of you people. You have the gaul to ask questions about the man, but then when his own answers about his life are given, you ignore them and say their biased :doh:

[Kilmer17]

Kilmer, what the hell are you talking about, do you even know what the book is about? Do you have a clue, or is everything so blindly partisan with you that you completely ignore any reference from the otherside?

What question have you posed so far in this thread COULD be spun? Seriously? Everything you have asked is biographical information on Wilson, and that is EXACTLY what the book was about. I told you I would gladly answer any questions, because everything is still fresh in my mind. Yet, you will completely ignore the direct source because of blind partisanship?!?

Man, I can not believe the reaction and beliefs on some of you people. You have the gaul to ask questions about the man, but then when his own answers about his life are given, you ignore them and say their biased :doh:

Speicifically this-

"3. He was contacted by the CIA, not through his wife. She had absolutely nothing to do with it. He went to Niger as a favor for the CIA without being paid."

I call bullsh!t. But you accept it as gospel. Great. Now when Libby/Rove etc write their book and state that his wife WAS the one who got him the assignment, will you accept their version as quickly as you accepted Wilsons?

Also, the crap about Rice lying is simply opinion. At this point, Wilson (or anybody for that matter) has no idea who knew what and when. We do however know for certain that Wilson has been caught in a few lies. But that doesnt seem to affect your ability to blindly accept his version of things.

[chomerics]

Also, the answers you gave to the questions I asked were what I was looking for. Specifics about the man.

The other answers you gave are the ones I tend to think were delivered through a slanted vision of what happened.

EX- I dont believe for a second that his wifes position played no part in his assignment.

Really, why do you think that? Think about the question for a minute. You have one of the top ambassadors from Africa available to do some ground work for you. You have a man who had direct contacts with the nation in question. He has relationships with the leader of the country, as well as the people who work in the two facilities, and he is available. He is emminently qualified, and available.

Seriously, do you HONESTLY think the CIA went to Valerie Plame and discussed the situation with her, and then she said hell, take my husband. Who cares that I have 2-two year old twins running around the house night and day, I can handle it. Who cares that he is not being paid except for his expenses, we don't need the money.

Then an top of all that, the CIA decides to send her husband? Seriously, we are not talking about cronies in the Executive branch, we are talking about the CIA. Do you honestly think the CIA would call on her, then use nepotisim???

Even if she DID send him to Africa, what difference does it make? Does it change ANYTHING about this entire mess?

[Thiebear]

just because: In typing who sent wilson I got this from the Free Republic: Hack site, but it makes sense..

The report also quotes an internal CIA memo written by Wilson's wife, Plame, stating: "my husband has good relations with both the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." Based on Plame's internal memo and other evidence, three Republicans -- Roberts and Sens. Orrin Hatch of Utah and Kit Bond of Missouri -- wrote additional views appended to the report, concluding that "the plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested" by Plame.The three GOP senators criticized their Democratic counterparts on the panel for refusing to endorse this conclusion. In his letter to the committee, Wilson disputed the Republican senators' characterization. "There is no suggestion or recommendation in that statement that I be sent on the trip," he wrote. A CIA spokeswoman declined to comment. In an interview, Wilson said that his wife was stating facts about his background, not pushing that he go to Niger.

Two things: First, if I declare I really need a great personal assistant and someone sends me an email saying "My husband can type 150 words per minute. He's very well organized, sharp and has great research skills" -- that would strike me as an effort to push her husband for the job. Second, Jacoby notes that Wilson disputes the memo's significance. What about "the other evidence" used to draw the conclusion Plame touted Wilson for the job?

[Thiebear]

And no it doesnt change anything about this entire mess: But the government is ALL ABOUT who you know... Its the good ole boy system from top to middle from top.. Thats why Special Forces and other groups and Top Secret clearances get you all over the D.C. Area...

[Kilmer17]

It would show he lied yet another time. Because his initial claim was that Cheney sent him.

I dont think the CIA went to Valerie Plame. I think Joe Wilson had an axe to grind and (along with his wife) went to the CIA and convinced them to send him.

And when discussing motive, so you HONESTLY think this administration outted her to try and smear him? As I said before, there are soooooo many other things that they could have done to make his life miserable if they had wanted to.

[chomerics]

Speicifically this-

"3. He was contacted by the CIA, not through his wife. She had absolutely nothing to do with it. He went to Niger as a favor for the CIA without being paid."

I call bullsh!t. But you accept it as gospel. Great. Now when Libby/Rove etc write their book and state that his wife WAS the one who got him the assignment, will you accept their version as quickly as you accepted Wilsons?

Libby and Rove are NOT the ones writing a book.

Also, the crap about Rice lying is simply opinion. At this point, Wilson (or anybody for that matter) has no idea who knew what and when. We do however know for certain that Wilson has been caught in a few lies. But that doesnt seem to affect your ability to blindly accept his version of things.

Do you HONESTLY mean to tell me that you believe she knew NOTHING about the report? Hell, if she DIDN'T know about the report, she should be FIRED on the spot for not doing her job!!!! She was the president's National Security Advisor, and you meant to tell me that she either. . .

a. Read the report that the story was false and forgot she read it or

b. Never saw the story from one of three sources to begin with???

This was her freaking job!!!!! She is SUPPOSED to know this type of stuff. You have 2 choices, either she lied, or she is completely incompetent. Which is it? I chose the fact that she lied because I think she is a bit smarter then that.

Do you want to go down this entire path? Do you want me to pull out the quotes she said, cross reverence them with report dates, when they were given to the WH, and THEN you can make up your mind?

And please tell me what "lies" Wilson has been caught in.

[Kilmer17]

Libby and Rove are NOT the ones writing a book.

Do you HONESTLY mean to tell me that you believe she knew NOTHING about the report? Hell, if she DIDN'T know about the report, she should be FIRED on the spot for not doing her job!!!! She was the president's National Security Advisor, and you meant to tell me that she either. . .

a. Read the report that the story was false and forgot she read it or

b. Never saw the story from one of three sources to begin with???

This was her freaking job!!!!! She is SUPPOSED to know this type of stuff. You have 2 choices, either she lied, or she is completely incompetent. Which is it? I chose the fact that she lied because I think she is a bit smarter then that.

Do you want to go down this entire path? Do you want me to pull out the quotes she said, cross reverence them with report dates, when they were given to the WH, and THEN you can make up your mind?

And please tell me what "lies" Wilson has been caught in.

No chom, Im saying I dont know. And Im stating that Wilson doesnt know. Nobody knows for certain.

The list of Wilsons lies are within this thread. The most blatant was his claim that his wife did nothing to get him the assignment, when memo's now prove otherwise.

[Art Monk Fan]

Libby and Rove are NOT the ones writing a book.

Do you HONESTLY mean to tell me that you believe she knew NOTHING about the report? Hell, if she DIDN'T know about the report, she should be FIRED on the spot for not doing her job!!!! She was the president's National Security Advisor, and you meant to tell me that she either. . .

a. Read the report that the story was false and forgot she read it or

b. Never saw the story from one of three sources to begin with???

This was her freaking job!!!!! She is SUPPOSED to know this type of stuff. You have 2 choices, either she lied, or she is completely incompetent. Which is it? I chose the fact that she lied because I think she is a bit smarter then that.

Do you want to go down this entire path? Do you want me to pull out the quotes she said, cross reverence them with report dates, when they were given to the WH, and THEN you can make up your mind?

And please tell me what "lies" Wilson has been caught in.

Chom,

Take a deep breath there, buddy.

Wilson claimed that he found no evidence that Iraq had contacted Niger about uranium, though the Nigerian PM told him Iraq had contacted them about "strengthening trade" -- Niger doesn't export much besides uranium.

At one point, Wilson claimed the forged Italian docs proved to him there was no connection, though those docs arrived 8 months after his trip and he never saw them.

There were British and French intell reports which were independent of the Italian report and which were not based on the forged docs. The Brits mantain to this day that their intell is solid. There has since been an independent investigation of British intell which held up their Niger intell.

Rice may have disagreed with Wilson's report, but that doesn't make her a liar. Nor does it mean she's seen a report which refutes the intell.

[Thiebear]

Chom,

Take a deep breath there, buddy.

Wilson claimed that he found no evidence that Iraq had contacted Niger about uranium, though the Nigerian PM told him Iraq had contacted them about "strengthening trade" -- Niger doesn't export much besides uranium.

At one point, Wilson claimed the forged Italian docs proved to him there was no connection, though those docs arrived 8 months after his trip and he never saw them.

There were British and French intell reports which were independent of the Italian report and which were not based on the forged docs. The Brits mantain to this day that their intell is solid. There has since been an independent investigation of British intell which held up their Niger intell.

Rice may have disagreed with Wilson's report, but that doesn't make her a liar. Nor does it mean she's seen a report which refutes the intell.

Short, and to the point... I highlighted the funny parts... had me crackin up.