OVCChairman

On 11/16/2020 at 6:19 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

I watched most of the defensive drives just now from yesterday.  I got burnt out, so didn't feel like watching the last 2 drives.  On my count Chase was doubled 16 times leading to those last 2 drives.  And I'd hazard a guess that he ended up doubled 20 times in the end give or take -- if I had the energy to go through the last two drives when the Lions were clearly passing like crazy.

 

Some of these doubles had the running back or TE chip him to help the tackle but most of them were outright 2 guys on him the whole time.   So if Chase is some failure, the rest of the NFL isn't catching on. 😀  That's who the Lions primarily focused on stopping.  So maybe PFF is on to something (Cooley, too) where he's affecting the game even when he isn't loading up on sacks.   I think the sacks will come.  I recall some lamenting about Sweat ironically last year.  Rookie DE's tend to take time.  But at a minimum, its clear as heck opposing offensive coordinators are spooked by him. 

 

I actually noticed some tendencies based on these doubles.  He wasn't typically doubled on running plays or quick 3 step throws that went in the opposite direction of whereever Chase was. 

 

 

found it, here is the screen grabs of the Detroit game

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I went back and counted the double teams against Detroit. Did you do the same? Well since I can assume you did not let me inform you that he was double teamed by design exactly 4 times for the entire game, on 2 others a guard and a back slid over late when they had nobody else to block but that was not a designed double team.  After reading a post claiming Chase was fighting off double and triple teams I started to watch the Bengals but my wife came in. I can report that on the first drive he faced exactly 1 double team, but I have not watched it all and will let you know the final tally.

 

The truth is in the plays I have charted the vast majority he was in fact blocked one on one by the tackle.  You don't need to know the play design to see that.  

I have not, i was going by screen grabs that another poster went through and put on a handful of pages back... 

15 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Agreed. That's what places like this is for. And for the record I'll state again I have zero concern that he will meet expectations at some point.

I will say that a lot of the conversation is predicated on opinion, but there are subjects that can be rebutted based on fact.. like claims that Young is getting beat 1 on 1 the vast majority of the time, and that simply is not true.. because we don't know the playcall, the gap run responsibility, or any number of factors that could be beat by a single blocker.. a lot of this side of the conversation, as one of the posters pointed out with screen grabs in the game vs Detroit, is just making a case contradicting claims that we feel are just incorrect. 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah I had a groin tear from softball, it sucked. But I don't want to hear about Chase's groin injury, every NFL player has injuries. All the good ones face double teams. It sound like there are a lot of what sounds like excuses to some extent to me. 

 

As for walking into a bad situation all I heard all offseason was how good the Dline was, that had to help Chase.  While 20 sacks for a rookie is unrealistic I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to have expected more impact plays at this point in the season, that's all I'm saying.  

 

 

And i dont think it's unfair for other fans to disagree with those expectations.. to evaluate a player upon their own opinion... 

20 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Well I'm certainly not going to read 161 pages to confirm @PartyPosse's claim. I'll simply state the posts I have seen are more in line with "I was expecting more impact plays". Tell the truth, didn't you after 10 games?

As I continue to post I am not worried about Chase Young being a good to great player some day. But I just thought I'd see more explosive plays.  But several plays on Sunday showed what a good football player his is already, just not a game changer. Yet. 

 

I also agree with the comment that Sweat was also hesitant in his rookie season, I look for this to change for Chase as well moving forward.  

To be completely honest, no, I did not think I would see more 'explosive plays' because I was one of the posters that want us to harness the expectations pre-draft.  I never wanted to compare him to the next LT or Von Miller.  You do that and you find yourself in the situation we're in now.... people wanting a player taken in 2020 to put up statistics on the same plane as people who are no longer playing the game.   Jonathan Allen was on the radio with the junkies this morning and he basically said that anyone who look at the stats doesn't have a clue what is actually going on.  He said "what if Chase wins his matchup every play but there is no push up the middle?  The QB can step up and Chase doesn't get a stat"  

My expectations of Chase Young was a potentially elite talent walking into one of the worst defenses into the league.  Add to that the fact that it's a brand new system, zilch for an offseason, and a rookie who has never taken an NFL snap in his life.  No preseason, no camps, none of the stuff that any other EDGE guy gets going into their first season.  Add to that a player that sustained a core groin injury that it's now being reported will not be right until the offeseason.... at this point it's a pain threshold.. Have you ever tried to be explosive with a groin injury?  He's still the highest rated rookie D-lineman in the NFL according to PFF. 

4 minutes ago, SB17 said:

I don’t live in the DC/MD/VA area any more, and I don’t get the full team coverage anymore so I may have missed something, but where did  Antonio Gandy-Golden go?  Injured?  If not, does he dress for games?

IR - Hamstring, expected to return Week 12 which is this week, but the short week makes that basically impossible.  Look to him to return to practice next week imho. 

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

That is your (poor) interpretation. What I have seen is clearly "thought we'd see more by now" than people claiming he was a bust which didn't happen.  

to be fair, I read it the exact same way as @PartyPosse does and I responded a few pages back with that sentiment.  

Just now, Xameil said:

So the question is...do the people that ****ed and moaned about AP getting cut realize the reasoning behind the madness of that?

yes... yes I do... i was incorrect. 

33 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah one thing I'll say is his football IQ is tremendous. I haven't seen a Washington defender ever sniff out screens like he does. Its a big step up considering for years now I've always felt we've had absolute morons on our D.

the Burrow fumble.  He was mid spin move and changed direction, sprinting to the ball.. he sensed Apke coming and hesitated because he knew Burrow was coming back inside.  His instincts are scary.  

but he didn't hit the qb or get a TFL...

Just now, PartyPosse said:

We’re the 5th best red zone defense in the NFL currently which speaks to what we’re able to do when a QB needs more time to be precise. We’re always getting pressure when they’re close. It’s not rocket surgery. 

I agree, I just wish we could scheme up that between the 20s...

Just now, PartyPosse said:

I don’t understand the long drives. If you’re going to give them up all game then your offense has to either do the same or your defense is gonna be toast but the third quarter. Whats the point of giving Fuller this money or drafting Moreau high if you have no faith they can do at least a competent job against Gallup? Let them sink or swim because right now they may as well just have practice squad guys out there making the (occasional) tackle and beef up everywhere else. Leave a backer on Eliot all game and make Dallas use their TE to beat us.

I know, I didn't say I wanted it to continue, just that I can see the point.  It's not easy to sustain a 12 - 15 play drive over and over and over.  The more plays you run, the more chances of a mistake or a pressed stop on 3rd down.  It's a rough system to run when you don't have the additional underneath coverage of the LBs, and concerns over the middle with your safeties.  It leaves gaps and holes.  The THEORY is that you get a pass rush home before the WR can get to the spot... well when the opposing offense can keep 7 guys in to block 4 guys... the QB has all day early in the game to pick you apart.  The field then gets smaller in the Redzone, so the windows are tighter, and this 'could' be the justification in the locker room... that "but did they score though" argument.  

I worry the same way you do.  To do that is asking your defense to just hold on tight... can't really get any pressure this way, and we just kind of let the game come to us... not the other way around.   

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'd rather the secondary just play aggressive off the LOS and if they get burned then they get burned. But this soft, prevent is like a death by a thousand papercuts. 

That was my semi-sarcastic answer agreeing with KDawg that the conversation about Young being 'minimized' due to quick releases and the fact that his 'lack of impact' is not an indictment on him directly was extremely shallow and lacking nuance. 

I actually agree with you.  I would love to see what our defense can do in press, even if you want to just press the line and drop into zone.  Something to get the WR off their route.  Watching our zone get carved up like it's nobodies business is enough to make you want to bang your head against the wall.  That said, I can understand the thought process of forcing your opponent to put together long sustained drives... it's not that easy, and when they're able to do it, the defense is gassed.  I actually like our Corners.  Fuller and Darby are talented enough to stay with a lot of the WRs in the NFL.  Cincy has some studs in Boyd and Higgins, and Dallas is stacked at WR so I don't know that I want to put them on islands on Thursday... especially if it opens up the run game forcing your DBs to turn and run in man coverage... not being able to keep their eyes down hill.  

Just now, KDawg said:

When people realize that quick releases prevent QB hits, let me know. I’ll jump in the convo then...

what? you mean adjusting a game plan? 

18 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

As good as Young is, and as great as he may become...I can't help wonder what might be if we drafted Herbert instead.

lol don't torture yourself, look at it this way... in 2011

Jax took Blaine Gabbert and Tennessee took Jake Locker.... over J.J. Watt, Minnesota took Christian Ponder over Robert Quinn.... Cin got A.J. Green in the first round of that draft, and Dalton in the 2nd. 

4 years later Jax took Bortles over Khalil Mack

How much different would Jax be right now if they had taken J.J. Watt and Khalil Mack instead of Gabbert and Bortles.  

It's the most important position in sports, and probably the most difficult to truly assess.... 

22 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Early draft talk again this year……………
 

🙄

Some of us are always looking at the future draft.   We kind of enjoy it.  It's not that we've written off a season, but we just like to do it.  The 2021 Comprehensive draft thread started literally April 25th... the final day of the 2020 draft. 

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, sorry bro. That was pretty harsh. You're a great poster and I generally respect your input, so it just surprised me to see you talk up our RB and bring up Reed or Thomas.

 

I'm totally down for a big Wisconsin TE that can run and catch too.  

I guess I just don't want some fans of this team to lose their mind if we don't take a TE til the 3rd or 4th round... or if we opt to look at free agency to add.  The position absolutely has room for improvement.  I was hoping Baugh would show out, and I'm a little frustrated that we opted to hold onto Sprinkle over Hentges and Rodgers.  If we could find our way into the Hunter Henry game I would be happy, because it basically means your draft can go elsewhere.  I don't want to IGNORE the position, but the offense can function without an elite TE.  There are a lot of 'good' TEs out there that can get the job done that we need done.  We need a TE1, but it doesn't have to be Kittle.  If Kittle is there, you take him.  If he's not there and you can get a much bigger upgrade at another position.. I think we can make it work for now..

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

This is my least favorite post in a long time. When is the last time we have had a TE consistently produce? TE is the safe outlet for a QB when we have had 3 young ones in 8 years. I can barely imagine a more important addition to this team then a reliable target in the middle for the next young QB we draft. They could draft 2 high or draft one high and sign Hunter and I'll stand on the table and cheer.  

OUCH!  Least favorite in a long time?! 

I hear you, but the overall point is that I don't want to put an emphasis on the position to the point that we overspend.... Logan Thomas appears serviceable, and he could very well be a quality no. 2.  If we were able to sign Henry, I'd be really excited too.  I just don't want us to go out and throw big money, or spend big draft capital unless it's warranted... that the player is worth it.  I think there are other positions right now that can be upgraded that will have a much bigger impact on the overall team.  With the RBs we have, we can scheme up that middle of the field outlet.  Look at what McKissic just did this past weekend... and what he's been doing this season.  Of course I want Kelce, Kittle, or a healthy Jordan Reed.  That said, there are not many of those to go around.  if that guy is available, by all means, get him.  If not... don't stress the gap between TE6 and TE 12.  That's all i was trying to say. 

BTW I like Jake Ferguson... just sayin. 

20 minutes ago, KDawg said:

It’s the freakin linebackers...

 

Linebackers.

 

Linebackers.

 

Why does this have to keep being said?

 

Its the NFL. Defensive linemen don’t win every down. They lose more than they win. It’s the way the league and football work for the most part. 
 

The linebackers prevent the defensive line from being as effective as they could be.

 

It doesn’t help that our defensive line is not built with aggressive guys, but rather gap closers.

Yeah but I need Mack, Watt, Donald, and Bosa to be happy 😎

5 minutes ago, Florgon79 said:

Thanks for doing all that work. Just curious when you were watching the defense how often do you think we actually had 3 lbers on the field? I feel like when I'm watching we are generally in nickle and this seems to hamper the whole notion that you have 3 lbers to plug the running lanes. Whereas in a 3-4 base d you still end up have 3 lbers on the field with only 3 lineman. Is this hurting our run stopping ability? I undertand our Lbers arent very good but if there are only ever 2 on the field how effective are we?

This is where JDR needs to adjust imho.  He knows a hell of a lot more about football than me, but we've recently been playing this odd zone quarters hybrid style defense on the back end which is forcing our 2nd and 3rd levels to be retreating in pass defense.  Statistically we've given up the most plays over 50 yards (6), but were top 5 in total yards, while bottom half in run defense.... so I can't say it's not working... and if the offense would play 4 quarters of football, the record would be different... but it's a weird dynamic and a very stark contrast between the first half and the second half.  

1 hour ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I do appreciate the film clips.  He was double teamed more than I thought.  I was wrong.

So I guess you would say Sweat and the Bama Boys have underperformed?  Something just isn't right.  This was suppose to be a top 5 d-line.  The Lions o-line beat the **** out of them.  There were plenty of times our whole d-line got pushed back a couple yards.  I don't think you can logically say the entire problem is the linebackers and our d-line looks great.  I don't get the impression that teams really fear them.  The Giants were not scared to play smash mouth football.  

 

 

Thank you for not taking a hard stance and doubling down, or leaving the convo.  That happens a lot nowadays.  I always respect when someone appreciates the convo and is willing to adjust their stance based on that convo.

The D line has struggled, but it's also flashed.  JDR has driven me bonkers at times with the scheme, so I'm hoping it's just a continued feeling out process and they will continue to gel over the 2nd half of the season.  I expected more, and if it the line doesnt show progress, it's going to pose questions in the offseason... something I had hoped we wouldnt have to think about.

1 hour ago, Capsman said:

Did you look at the highlights of the Jones INT carefully?  He had nobody blocking him until the TE came all the way from the other side to try to block him at the last moment. 
 

The LA Rams play was not a leverage win.  The left tackle Immediately started backing up before Young even engaged him.  Perhaps Young got a faster than usual jump which led to that, I don’t know.

Yes I did, but I don't fault Mclaurin for beating Diggs on a terrible schematic playcall.  He still won the matchup and torched the guy responsible for covering him.  Same for Young, it's not his fault they left the TE on him, he just has to win the matchup.  It's a disruptive play forcing an INT with the other team in our redzone...

The tackle in the Rams clip was in pass pro, that is always a first step back and Young engaged and pushed him into Goffs lap so he couldnt step up.  The pocket was not there because Young beat his blocker 

4 hours ago, Capsman said:

Ah no, not trolling.  Just being honest.  Some of the hyperbole here is laughable, that he "single handedly almost caused multiple interceptions" and "regularly getting triple teamed".  You will find examples of any lineman getting getting blocked by a second guy once or twice a game.  I literally counted one double team on Young all of yesterday.  One.  Perhaps I missed one, so let's say two. 

 

As for the backers and linebackers, it doesn't explain why he cannot get close to the QB even on the non-quick hitting plays against a single blocker.  His teammates are getting there before him.   He's repeatedly pushed to the outside or ends up way behind the QB (if not pushed to the ground).  The Bosas, Watts (even TJ) made their teammates better by both drawing extra attention and making the QB either move up in the pocket toward the interior rush or outside the pocket toward the other defensive end.   And they did that in their rookie seasons, even if the sack totals weren't high.   Honestly I've seen one impressive pass rush the entire season and that was his sack fumble against Wentz on a spin move.  

 

No, I don't think he's a "bust", he just doesn't look to me like a guy who has the tools to be a dominant d-lineman.  Has good straightaway speed but doesn't seem capable of lowering his center of gravity, like a motorcycle racer going around a tight curve.  His strength seems to manifest in static situations (holding the line in run defense for example) but he doesn't look particularly strong rushing.  You see that with a lot of guys like Payne, hard to move but they don't push the pocket.     Not sure I've seen him successfully bull rush.  Maybe I've missed one?  Where I do think he can improve is the hand to hand stuff and a move here or there, but he looks to me like a guy whose ceiling is in the 7-8 sack per year range.  Not bad, but not game changing either.

 

I will be happy as a lark if I'm wrong and it all turns out to be his groin, but despite his successful first game I noticed some of these things before his injury, like lowering the center of gravity, ankle flexibility, etc.  I'd really love to know what we were offered (if anything) for the pick prior to the draft.   

 

Prove me wrong, Chase.  

Jones is attempting to throw this away... Young wins and Jones cant step into the throw, allowing Fuller to make a play

Watch the 2nd highlight vs the Rams.  Young gets leverage against the LT and pushes him into Goff so he cant step into the throw... it's a duck and easily intercepted by Fuller...

Are we really talking about Young like he's a bust?  He made a stupid play.  It was a mistake.  

He also has single handedly forced multiple interceptions this season.  Something that does not show up on the stat sheet.  Last week we saw a clip where he was literally tripled teamed.   He literally held AP by 1 arm yesterday as AP was pushing through a pile.   He had a bad game yesterday.  A play that stood out to me was he got caught trying to pass rush to the inside and it opened a hole on the outside.  Not sure if the LB was supposed to be in the gap, but it happens. 

I don't think we're anywhere near a point we can say he wasn't worth the no. 2 overall pick.....