OrangeSkin Posted February 17, 2002 Share Posted February 17, 2002 What are everybody's thoughts on religion and the existence/nonexistence of God? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn X Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 To paraphrase Bill Cosby... God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 Now this is an ambitious thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />In my youth, I was an apologetic agnostic: "Sorry, but I just don't know."<br /><br />In my teens, I was a sullen agnostic: "Dunno. Don't care."<br /><br />In my twenties, I was a militant agnostic: "I. Don't. Know. And you don't either."<br /><br />In my thirties, I was a practical agnostic: "Well, I don't really know, babe, Daddy's still learning, too,"and "I don't know, man. To me the jury's still out. So ... are the steaks done yet?"<br /><br />In my (early) forties, I'm a wary agnostic: "Seems to me we'd have to define "God" before we could have a meaningful discussion about it. How much time do you have?"<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 20, 2002, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Om ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 I'm an atheist. Always have. Always will be.<br /><br />And personally speaking, I believe religion is one of the worst ideas/concepts mankind has ever construed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddha Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 D@mn dude, are you going to start a politics thread next???<br /><br />I consider myself to be a non-believer rather than an atheist. I believe in no spiritual or supreme being/creator or religion, but yet am not against those who choose to believe in one. I do not have problems with my wife or kids going to church with relatives. Living in Bible country, I've also learned to sit quietly in the background as friends and family say grace or as public meetings are opened with an invocation.<br /><br />I do have a problem with people imposing their beliefs upon others, which includes your strictest Protestants, Islamic extremists, AND militant atheists. I do not bite my tongue when someone is critical of me not going to church. And I have a serious problem with people waiving the banner of religion or atheism using anger or personal success/failure as a crutch. But I get along quite well with people who understand this is not a topic for discussion with me, and can tolerate my views.<br /><br />Kind of ironic for a guy named Buddha, eh??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 Buddha, I realize the implications of my post <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Religious people, quite frankly, frighten the living begeebies out of me. I think the notion of abandoning all reason, evidence and experience - the very fibre of humanity - for 'faith' is a delusional.<br /><br />Consistent with Buddhist principles - at least some factions of it - people who believe in religion devalue their lives in hopes of an 'afterlife'.<br /><br />Buddhism appeals to me the most. For the most part it is grounded in realism but it's not without some flaws itself. Hence I would never adhere to any kind of religious dogma.<br /><br />While I will not dismiss the presence of an infinitely more intelligent 'peoples/being', I fail to understand how it correlates with 'morals/ethics' created by human beings.<br /><br />Religion = politics. It's strength is drawn from the fears and ignorance regarding death.<br /><br />Now I don't go out of my way to insult the 'religious'. I more or less try to avoid the topic altogether.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 20, 2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 Descartes defined god as the sum total of all the laws of nature; I always thought that was a pretty good way of looking at the question. Does that mean god is a conscious being, as we know it, or that "he" cares what we do? How should I know?<br /><br />I always thought the image of god as a sixty foot tall male caucasian grandfatherly type, dutifully cataloging the fall of each sparrow, was ridiculous. If god is an infinite intelligence, I don't see how can humans pretend to understand that intelligence with our tiny little minds.<br /><br />Religious behavior encompasses such a wide range of human behavior that I tend not to make sweeping statements about it. It can inspire anything from Mother Teresa's life work to people who think "God's work" includes shooting abortion clinic receptionists and flying planes into buildings, so it's hard to draw generalizations. But like Die Hard, I find fanatic believers more than a little worrisome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 Fitzy - Glad you decided to join the conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />My point of contention would be... is Mother Theresa the person she is and does what she does by the fear/will of God in return for the salvation of her soul? Or is she genuinely the person who she appears to be... and would be the same person regardless if there was irrefutable evidence disproving the existence of an afterlife?<br /><br />Isn't it a greater leap of 'faith' to be a good and 'selfless' human being without the belief in a God or a supreme being?<br /><br />I happen to think people who live by a set of rules (ie. morality) in hopes of eternal glory are 'selfish' people with the wrong motives. <br /><br />THE passage from the state of nature to the civil state produces a very remarkable change in man, by substituting justice for instinct in his conduct, and giving his actions the morality they had formerly lacked. Then only, when the voice of duty takes the place of physical impulses and right of appetite, does man, who so far had considered only himself, find that he is forced to act on different principles, and to consult his reason before listening to his inclinations. - JJ Rousseau.<br /><br />Whatever moralists may hold, the human understanding is greatly indebted to the passions, which, it is universally allowed, are also much indebted to the understanding. It is by the activity of the passions that our reason is improved; for we desire knowledge only because we wish to enjoy; and it is impossible to conceive any reason why a person who has neither fears nor desires should give himself the trouble of reasoning. The passions, again, originate in our wants, and their progress depends on that of our knowledge; for we cannot desire or fear anything, except from the idea we have of it, or from the simple impulse of nature. Now savage man, being destitute of every species of intelligence, can have no passions save those of the latter kind: his desires never go beyond his physical wants. The only goods he recognises in the universe are food, a female, and sleep: the only evils he fears are pain and hunger. I say pain, and not death: for no animal can know what it is to die; the knowledge of death and its terrors being one of the first acquisitions made by man in departing from an animal state. - Rousseau.<br /><br />It appears, at first view, that men in a state of nature, having no moral relations or determinate obligations one with another, could not be either good or bad, virtuous or vicious; unless we take these terms in a physical sense, and call, in an individual, those qualities vices which may be injurious to his preservation, and those virtues which contribute to it - Rousseau.<br /><br />In the state of nature man's contact with his fellow men is so infrequent and discontinuous that mere instinct is a sufficient guide to conduct. Without the experience of organised social life, he has no occasion to discipline his natural appetites in the interest of common action. Thus reason and morality do not exist in the state of nature; they are products of civil society. - JJ Rousseau<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 22, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 21, 2002 Share Posted February 21, 2002 For the record... I'm pretty confident I was JJ Rousseau in another life <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br /> "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. " Albert Einstein. <br /><br />"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature." Albert Einstein<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 22, 2002, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golgo-13 Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Wasn't the Bill Cosby quote " Dad is great, he'll give us the chocolate cake." I happen to belive in God, life would be frightening without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Why would life without God be frightening? Do you believe there could be no happiness/fulfillment in life without God? How would you live your life differently if God didn't exist?<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 22, 2002, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 If God is omniscient and exists, he would have made his existence obvious to us all, such as through a Universal Truth such as the force of gravity. The existence and truth of gravity can be proven to anyone, anywhere and at any time in history. One simply needs to drop an object and the invisible force of gravtiy makes it fall to the ground, proving its existence to everyone in history, regardless of race, age, creed or beliefs. Yet the clerics of all religions instead want us to "believe" them and have "faith" that their God, somehow inspired their friggin manual (i.e., KJ Bible, Catholic Bible, Tanakh, Koran, etc), and that somehow they were left with the answers. The fact that the Christian God in the Bible is not a Universal Truth, is obvious when one looks around the world. For example most the people of India do not believe in the Christian God in the Bible. <br />The reason the clerics demand "faith" is really for purposes of control, and they know they cant prove a damn thing. Personally i dont believe in an "invisible" God, and why is it that gods must always be invisible, especially if "man was made in God's image" as the Bible says. When i see babies in Somalia dying of starvation, its obvious if any god exists, he doesnt care about us personally because he doesnt care about these babies as individuals. Even if god did exist, if he doesnt care about us as individuals, his existence is therefore irrelevant. Besides there are a number of good books available, that point out where in the Bibles, you can find all kinds of mistakes, discrepancies, and even fraud. Hardly the inspiration of some supreme being. But most of us find difficulty in objectively researching this, because we have been indoctrinated by our parents for 18 years in their particular religion. That is why most of the people in India are Hindus, most of the people in the Middle East are Moslems, most of the people in the U.S. are Christians, etc. And that is why more people have been killed and murdered in the name of religion, then for any other cause.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 22, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: inmate running the asylum ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted February 22, 2002 Author Share Posted February 22, 2002 I myself believe in God. I'm a Lutheran, and have been all my life. I don't try to force my beliefs upon anybody, but if they ask, I tell. There are points where science ends and a God must exist. For example, how could the universe have formed? I believe in evolution, but how can one say that out of total nothingness, the perfect system that is the universe simply began. Everything from the rotation of the planets to the cells under your fingernails just "became." How could emotion evolve? The entire system is too perfect to have simply evolved. <br /><br />I don't believe that God is a gigantic man in outerspace. God is an unseen force, so to say, that guides us. When we pray, it's not like a man sitting up in the sky goes, "OK, your wish is granted." It is a force which guides us and helps us. Man does not have all this within him. Man is given life, but is ignorant and stupid. That is what God is there for.<br /><br />A number of archeological finds have revealed that Jesus did infact exist. The Bible was written by his disciples, his closest followers. It's not as though one day a bunch of crazy people got together and said, "We're going to write a book that 13 billion people will believe is the total authority on religion!" It is to spread the word of God. Luke actually states that he interviewed the Virgin Mary. Is this the truth? I believe it is.<br /><br />Starvation is the result of human negligence. There is enough food on this planet for everybody, but because westerners insist on gobbling up huge helpings of roast beef every night, those kids in Africa are starving. That's life. God gave man free will. If God was to step in and just solve everything, would we be happy? Would we be happy knowing that our lives and our futures have already been determined? That is the difference between democracy and communism. Soviets born under communist rule had their futures decided from the moment they came out of their mother's womb. In America, everybody has a chance to experience their full development as an individual by making their own decisions. If God magically solved everything, we would be rotting in our own boredom. Instead, we have the right to do whatever we want. Suffering is the result of that.<br /><br />God truly has made himself known, through man. We have the full range of emotions. We have 5 fingers and we have the ability to create and destroy. We have the ability to love, and the ability to hate. It just seems so "everyday" that we do not realize it. People are made in the image of God, except we do not have his perfection. God performs miracles everyday. We simply do not recognize them. The love between a man and a woman. Redskins fans rejoicing after a victory. It is when we let our imperfections get in the way when things go wrong.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 22, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: OrangeSkin ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 OrangeSkins - There is a difference from accepting the possibility of a superior life form (ie. God-like) and religion.<br /><br />Religion is an expression of worship. Worship is a very powerful word. Now I don't know about you but I don't go worshiping things I am so uncertain about.<br /><br />And I certainly wouldn't committ to any one religion without at least fully exploring the beliefs and practices of every one. I mean... isn't your soul worth that kind of investiment?<br /><br />I just wanted to address a few comments of yours.<br /><br />1. If God was to step in and just solve everything, would we be happy? Would we be happy knowing that our lives and our futures have already been determined? <br /><br />2. If God magically solved everything, we would be rotting in our own boredom. Instead, we have the right to do whatever we want.<br /><br />My God I'm having flashbacks of Sunday school <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />If God gave man 'free will' so he wouldn't be rotting in boredom in his 80-year lifespan... what is HE/SHE/IT going to do about it for ALL ETERNITY. Will everyone have 'free will' in heaven? Come on now.<br /><br />And theoretically, if God gave us the miracle life and ability to exert free will... and yet asks man to choose between worshipping him/her/it or eternal damnation... is that truly 'free will'?<br />Brother, that wouldn't even hold up in court.<br /><br />3. A number of archeological finds have revealed that Jesus did infact exist. The Bible was written by his disciples, his closest followers. It's not as though one day a bunch of crazy people got together and said, "We're going to write a book that 13 billion people will believe is the total authority on religion!" It is to spread the word of God. Luke actually states that he interviewed the Virgin Mary. Is this the truth? I believe it is. <br /><br />Sure, let's all listen to the words of men from 2000 years ago. Geez, it wasn't even 200 years ago we referred to an entire nation of North Americans as 'savages'. Think about it.<br /><br />4. In America, everybody has a chance to experience their full development as an individual by making their own decisions. If God magically solved everything, we would be rotting in our own boredom. Instead, we have the right to do whatever we want. Suffering is the result of that. <br /><br />I didn't know heaven was a liberal-democracy.<br /><br />5. People are made in the image of God, except we do not have his perfection. <br /><br />Interesting. So God created imperfection.<br /><br />6. God truly has made himself known, through man. We have the full range of emotions. We have 5 fingers and we have the ability to create and destroy. We have the ability to love, and the ability to hate. It just seems so "everyday" that we do not realize it. <br /><br />Just wondering... if we accept the potential of the existence of a superior life form to human beings in other galaxies/universes... wouldn't these 'beings' more closely resemble the image of God? Is it implicit that all the most intelligent life forms in all the universes/galaxies look like human beings?<br /><br />8. God performs miracles everyday. We simply do not recognize them. The love between a man and a woman. Redskins fans rejoicing after a victory. <br /><br />You're definition of a 'miracle' needs redefinition.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 23, 2002, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Well said Die Hard. You made a number of good and valid points. <img border="0" alt="[Cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/cheers.gif" /> <br /><br />In my opinion we live in a beautiful world (nature), but a cruel, evil, and chaotic world, not of our own making. The cruel ecological food chain system that we were all born into (higher animals eating lower animals), was not of our making, and is a cruel system for all life concerned. When a lion has to eat the flesh of another animal just to survive, or starve to death itself as so many animals do, it is a cruel system and hardly one of perfection. The universe is hardly a place of perfection and harmony but one of chaos and destruction. The earth would be pockmarked like the moon from being bombarded by meteorites, if our atmosphere did not protect us most of the time. Luckily the comets that struck Jupiter a few years ago, did not hit earth, otherwise we would all be toast. Occasionally earth has not been so lucky, as evidenced by Meteor Crater in Arizona. And religionists call this a universe of harmony and perfection? Next time a volcano erupts or an earthquake kills 20,000 innocent people, men, women, and children, as occurred in Turkey in 2001, think about this so-called perfect universe we live in and nature or a creator made. <img border="0" alt="[hammer]" title="" src="graemlins/hammer.gif" /><br /> <br /> <small>[ February 23, 2002, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: inmate running the asylum ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn X Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wasn't the Bill Cosby quote "Dad is great, he'll give us the chocolate cake."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I must confess that I was not the clever chap who coined the “God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake line.” No, that was my old high school pal, Sean. He came up with it one day at lunch in response to a fellow classmate who was doggedly trying to convert us to Christianity. I don’t recall this determined gentleman’s name, but for purposes of this post I shall refer to him with the pejorative moniker for him that Sean and I came up with back then: Godfreak.<br /><br />Godfreak: Don’t you realize how wonderful God is?<br /><br />Glenn: No. Enlighten us.<br /><br />Sean: Yeah, give us the skinny, man.<br /><br />Godfreak: Well, who do you think created you? How do you think you got here?<br /><br />Glenn: The stork.<br /><br />Sean: Ooooooooooooooh, I know this one! Our parents, right?<br /><br />Godfreak: And who do you think created them?<br /><br />Sean: Dude, get ready for me to blow your mind! Grandparents, right?!<br /><br />Glenn: I’m gonna go out a on limb and roll with the grandparents one, too, disgusting as it is to think of my grandparents fornicating.<br /><br />Godfreak: And how do you think the first humans got here?<br /><br />Sean: Evolution.<br /><br />Godfreak: No! Evolution is a sham! God created Adam and Eve, and from them all humans descended.<br /><br />Glenn: Whoa, wait a minute here. Evolution is a sham? What about all those dinosaur bones and sh*t that have been unearthed by archaeologists? I know that the Bible never got around to dealing with the existence of dinosaurs and all, but...<br /><br />Godfreak: Those dinosaur bones are a sham! They were put here by God to trick us, to test our faith in Him!<br /><br />Sean: Dude, I’m no expert in Judeo-Christian traditions, but isn’t it typically Satan, the bad guy, who plays the role of trickster, going around deceiving people and sh*t? I thought that God, the good guy, was supposed to be above that kind of pettiness.<br /><br />Godfreak: He’s not being a trickster. He’s trying to make us believe in Him.<br /><br />Glenn: I’m not sure that I follow that line of logic, man. But if God is the kind of wacky prankster that you make him out to be, I might just have to look into this whole Christianity thing. God sounds like a real barrel of monkeys.<br /><br />Sean: You know what? God really is great. (singing) God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake! God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake!<br /><br />Glenn: (joining in) God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake! God is great; he gives us the chocolate cake!<br /><br />Of course, not every Christian is as silly and delusional as this gentleman was (and probably still is). However, this experience (and others like it) pretty much accounts for my deep skepticism regarding organized religion and the existence of a Supreme Being.<br /><br />But, like Om, I consider myself to be an agnostic. In fact, I’d even like to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being or Supreme Beings... a higher, wiser, benevolent force in the universe that seeks to help us all... something that validates “the significance” of my life, your life, anybody and everybody’s life. However, I have yet to see any concrete evidence of that. And until I do, I simply can’t and won’t buy into this notion.<br /><br />Interestingly, though, while folks like Marx and Engels have enumerated the darker implications of religion and religiousness, there are also dark implications to a lack thereof. I mean, let’s face it: the human animal is largely a “Do I really have to do this?” kind of creature. The argument has been made my many scholars for quite some time now of a rise of Science and a simultaneous fall of God (perhaps most forcefully stated by Nietzsche when he proclaimed that “God is dead”) in the West over the past two centuries. Whether completely true or not, it seems fairly clear to me that it becomes that much easier for human beings, who already have the capacity for great viciousness to begin with, to behave even more viciously toward one another without the specter of The Great Headmaster in the Sky to smack them on the behind in The Great Hereafter for their transgressions against one another in the now.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 23, 2002, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Glenn X ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinsfan71 Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Religion is just that, religion, it is something you have to do, instead of doing something you want to do!, also, in my mind people like Diehard who believe that there is no GOD, (it's harder to believe in that then it is to believe in GOD) it takes more faith to believe in no GOD then it does to believe in 1, also if for your whole life you try to disagree and come up with some excuse for never looking into something and trying it out to see if it really works for yourself, sure your going to disagree with it!, and also those that are so WORLDLY SMART, are so SPIRITUALLY DUMB, they can't imagine that there is a true and living GOD out there who really does care for them, and has revealed himself in the BODY of JESUS CHRIST, if you never give something a chance, you'll never see for yourselfs that it does work, GOD will not force himself upon you, you have to ask him to reveal himself to you, and really mean it, not for selfish gain, or worldly fame, but true and sincere reasons, and he will reveal himself to you, also if your 1 of those who feels you can tackle all of lifes problems, set backs, mis-haps, deaths of loved 1's, then your really just fooling yourself in believing that way, deep down inside you have questions that even your own worldly knowledge can't answer, and your just to prideful to seek out the truth, or should I say just to blinded to the truth. In closing, I'm am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for in it is the power of salvation, to all who believe, and I can stand boldly with confidence that JESUS LIVES on the inside of me, and truely he is, my LORD and my SAVIOR, before you knock something like Religion, seek it out first, don't rely on something you hear from others, (for who really knows the truth about anything after it is received from someone else, try it out for yourselves see if there is something to a SPIRITUAL life), also what could it hurt to believe in a GOD who LOVES and CARES for us, (I mean if there is such a thing as a life after death, wouldn't it be more smart to believe in 1, and it not exist, then not to believe in 1, and it really exist), cause if that would be the case, then your helpless in the situation!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 redskinsfan71 - <br /><br />Religion is just that, religion, it is something you have to do, instead of doing something you want to do!, <br /><br />That doesn't sound like free will. Now we know you aren't Lutheran.<br /><br />also, in my mind people like Diehard who believe that there is no GOD, (it's harder to believe in that then it is to believe in GOD) it takes more faith to believe in no GOD then it does to believe in 1 <br /><br />True. I think people who believe in faith and ignore reason are pretty simple minded.<br /><br /> also if for your whole life you try to disagree and come up with some excuse for never looking into something and trying it out to see if it really works for yourself, sure your going to disagree with it <br /><br />I was born into a Roman Catholic family. I have had plenty of exposure to Judaism and Jehovah's witnesses from other relatives. I went to a Pentacostal church. I was introduced to Islam and studied Buddhism in univeristy. My fiance is Baptist. I majored in politics and minored in philosophy. To suggest I haven't 'looked into something' would be blatantly wrong. In fact, you couldn't be further from the truth.<br /><br />and also those that are so WORLDLY SMART, are so SPIRITUALLY DUMB, they can't imagine that there is a true and living GOD out there who really does care for them <br /><br />How 'spiritually smart' are you? What religions have you made an attempt to learn? Name them all and give me the key reasons/principles why you decided not to practise each particular faith.<br /><br />I can use reason in my arguments. And that's one luxury you don't have.<br /><br />deep down inside you have questions that even your own worldly knowledge can't answer, and your just to prideful to seek out the truth, or should I say just to blinded to the truth. <br /><br />The truth. What is 'the truth'? I've read your post 5 times over and I don't see a single word of it. In fact, the words 'truth' and 'religion' are literally polar opposites.<br /><br />also if your 1 of those who feels you can tackle all of lifes problems, set backs, mis-haps, deaths of loved 1's, then your really just fooling yourself in believing that way<br /><br />I don't think there's a single human being who feels invincible. But to predispose those human beings capable of living a fulfilling life without God as foolish is simply ignorant.<br /><br />This merely justifies my belief that God/religion is for the weak. If you need God to make your existence more bearable... then by all means. But don't pity me.<br /><br />I can stand boldly with confidence that JESUS LIVES on the inside of me <br /><br />And if you can do that with a straight face... you're a fat liar.<br /><br />also what could it hurt to believe in a GOD who LOVES and CARES for us. I mean if there is such a thing as a life after death, wouldn't it be more smart to believe in 1, and it not exist, then not to believe in 1, and it really exist), cause if that would be the case, then your helpless in the situation!!!!!!!!!! <br /><br />Exactly. So the fact of the matter is you've chosen your religion to cover your own @ss. You my friend are religious for all the wrong reasons.<br />I think you need to go back to the ole' drawing board and rethink things.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 25, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinsfan71 Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 !st Die Hard, don't for 1 minute begin to judge me, (you don't even know me from Adam, just like I won't begin to do the same toward you), you seem to be so hostile toward Religion, (why is that?) also you said what Religions have I tried and seen if they work, (well 1st thing is Religions are man made, all forms of Religions are what man can do, or what man has done, (men like you and me who have faults) and what man has to do to get right with GOD, being a Christian is totally different from that, it's what someone, (GOD has done for you in the BODY OF JESUS), not what you have to do to get favor, or approval, just look at some other Religions, (you have to pray so many times a day, act a certain way, eat certain foods, go to the Priest and ask for forgiveness, etc....., being a Christian, you simply believe in what JESUS has done for you, accept that as the TRUTH, thats Freedom BROTHER!!!!!!, to realize that I have to do nothing, cause it was already done for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,how awesome is that?, now about me saying (I know that JESUS lives on the inside of me) again you don't even know me, so who do you think you are to judge that statement of mine, I"ve met so many people like you in my life, and to be honest, it's ashame that your mind is so blinded to the truth and the facts, but the BIble clearly says that this will be, your so hostile toward this area in life, but the truth is that your beliefs can in no way affect mine, but my beliefs can affect yours, (as light over rides the darkness), also if you believe in no truth, then how do you live your life, by what measure do you live? in closing, I don't want this to affect our respect toward each other, (I'm in no way trying to make you convert to what I believe, I'm just trying to be a light in the mist of the dark), your a grown man, and so am I, and we both love the Redskins, so we can agree to disagree on this 1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 !st Die Hard, don't for 1 minute begin to judge me, (you don't even know me from Adam, just like I won't begin to do the same toward you), <br /><br />When you post and share your thoughts with people, you leave yourself open to judgment. That is life. People erroneously judge others every day. We judge them by their material possessions, their friends, their age, their employment, their religion, their gender, sexual orientation, etc.<br /><br />And religious people, despite believing principles to the contrary, are some of the worst perpetrators. <br /><br />you seem to be so hostile toward Religion<br /><br />Actually, I'm one of the 'nice' guys. If you don't agree with me you're entitled to your opinion and I can respect that. Bottom line is we all ultimately end up in the same place - six feet under. Unlike religion though... I don't condemn people to eternal damnation. <br /><br />well 1st thing is Religions are man made <br /><br />Finally some truth. Morality and ethics would also be man-made constructs.<br /><br />being a Christian is totally different from that, it's what someone, (GOD has done for you in the BODY OF JESUS), not what you have to do to get favor, or approval, just look at some other Religions, (you have to pray so many times a day, act a certain way, eat certain foods, go to the Priest and ask for forgiveness, etc....., being a Christian, you simply believe in what JESUS has done for you, accept that as the TRUTH, thats Freedom BROTHER!!!!!!, <br /><br />Again... what is 'the truth'? What is 'freedom'? What is 'perfection'? Please continue to ignore my questions at your convenience.<br /><br />to realize that I have to do nothing, cause it was already done for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Once again taking the 'easy' way out I see.<br /><br />now about me saying (I know that JESUS lives on the inside of me) again you don't even know me, so who do you think you are to judge that statement of mine<br /><br />I don't have to know you to understand a metaphysical being doesn't exist inside despite the fact that you've convinced yourself otherwise.<br /><br />I"ve met so many people like you in my life, and to be honest, it's ashame that your mind is so blinded to the truth and the facts, but the BIble clearly says that this will be <br /><br />I thought you said you wouldn't 'begin to judge' me? I'm still waiting to hear these wonderful 'truths' and 'facts'. Telling me Jesus lives inside is not a truth. And if the Bible is in fact the basis of your beliefs... then you're a little more feeble-minded than what I originally thought.<br /><br />Even the Pope has finally come around and begun to disassociate himself and his religion from the Bible. Most religions have evolved to the understanding the bible is nothing more than an accumulation of parables which were not meant to be taken literally. <br /><br />also if you believe in no truth, then how do you live your life, by what measure do you live? <br /><br />Actually, I believe in truth. I believe in empirical evidence. And I live my life by making the decisions I so choose. For the most part, they're governed by the rules of the law. I believe it's in my best interests to do so. But ultimately, I'm responsible for my own actions.<br /><br />as light over rides the darkness<br /><br />The snake, the apple, hell's minions, fire and brimstone, pearly gates, etc. These are wonderful analogies taught to little children. You're not a child any longer.<br /><br />I don't want this to affect our respect toward each other <br /><br />Of course not. I'm bigger than that. These are opinions shared on 'religion' based solely in this thread. And we can certainly leave it here <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Speaking on religion is a tough and emotional and I knew that coming in. But that doesn't mean we can't speak intelligently about it... and then move on. I'm actually a bit suprised more people haven't weighed in. Oh well.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 25, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Of course there is a God, How else could I marry a babe like my other half? That took divine intervention.<br /><br />However I do question his judgement in creating only one of me because if he create more f me there wouldnt be as many chicks at WNBA games trying to Mack players.<br /><br />The last miracles I saw for myself were in Bosnia a rocket landed infont of a church full of kids and some clergy and didnt detonate and the EOD had to disarm it, and the unit I was in was driving on patrol and about 7 minutes after we passed one area two huge boulders crashed down onto the road that could have destroyed tanks. <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/angel.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/angel.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/angel.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Evil]" title="" src="graemlins/evil.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Evil]" title="" src="graemlins/evil.gif" /> <br /><br />Ad figures my religious post has to have three scary numbers (6606) in it huh?<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 25, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: NavyDave ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tchershire Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 “I'm actually a bit surprised more people haven't weighed in. Oh well.”<br /><br />I decided to break the silence.<br /><br />“When you post and share your thoughts with people, you leave yourself open to judgment. That is life. People erroneously judge others every day. We judge them by their material possessions, their friends, their age, their employment, their religion, their gender, sexual orientation, etc.”<br /><br />You’re absolutely right Die Hard. People judge erroneously and people judged correctly! But the “key” word is that we all judge and we all have our opinions and our prejudices! How wonderful to think that God loves each one of us regardless of any of those things. Even though you don’t believe in Him, isn’t it incredible that He still believes in you and loves you? I realize that’s an incredible concept for you but you’d have an impossible time proving it is wrong!<br /><br />”And religious people, despite believing principles to the contrary, are some of the worst perpetrators.”<br /><br />Unfortunately, religious people, like all other people, are human and subject to that same frailties and mistakes that all of us are. It would be nice to think that religious people could rise above such human frailties based on their faith but it unfortunately doesn’t work that way. Whatever, I accomplish, I do so through Him because I can’t do it myself! Someone as pragmatic as you should realize that mankind has never been a shining example of love, understanding, selfless accomplishment, sacrifice,committment etc…..!<br /><br />”Actually, I'm one of the 'nice' guys. If you don't agree with me you're entitled to your opinion and I can respect that. Bottom line is we all ultimately end up in the same place - six feet under. Unlike religion though... I don't condemn people to eternal damnation.”<br /><br />But being human I bet you condemn them for something! And if they “piss you off” enough, I dare say that condemnation would be eternal! Regardless, “religion” doesn’t condemn people to eternal damnation – only God does!! – But man has the choice! <br /><br /> <br />”Again... what is 'the truth'? What is 'freedom'? What is 'perfection'? Please continue to ignore my questions at your convenience.” <br /><br />Given those terms, I doubt even you can adequately define “truth,” “freedom,” or “perfection!” I won’t ignore your questions but I would expect you to have “universal” answers, acceptable across a wide spectrum of mankind! I’m highly skeptical!<br /><br />”Once again taking the 'easy' way out I see.”<br /><br />There’s nothing easy about believing in Jesus Christ, you’ve already demonstrated that!!<br /><br />”I don't have to know you to understand a metaphysical being doesn't exist inside despite the fact that you've convinced yourself otherwise. “I thought you said you wouldn't 'begin to judge' me? I'm still waiting to hear these wonderful 'truths' and 'facts'. Telling me Jesus lives inside is not a truth. And if the Bible is in fact the basis of your beliefs... then you're a little more feeble-minded than what originally thought.”<br /><br />Die Hard, you’re the one who believe in “proofs” why don’t you prove to me that a metaphysical being cannot or does not exist inside me? The very fact that you admit to a metaphysical possibility contradicts the impossibility of the concept!<br /><br />”Actually, I believe in truth. I believe in empirical evidence. And I live my life by making the decisions I so choose. For the most part, they're governed by the rules of the law. I believe it's in my best interests to do so. But ultimately, I'm responsible for my own actions.”<br /><br />Ah! What is Law?????? Physical Law, Judicial Law, Natural Law?????? How many times have these laws been redefined because of new discoveries???? Does that make all of your decisions, based on those laws, wrong?????? You are in fact responsible for your own actions but are either the actions or the decision executed in a vacuum? Does your life have an impact or an affect on others? Have you ever felt love or rage for another human being – if so, where is the empirical evidence that either of these two “states” actually exist? “If I feel therefore I am!?!?!?”<br /><br />”The snake, the apple, hell's minions, fire and brimstone, pearly gates, etc. These are wonderful analogies taught to little children. You're not a child any longer.”<br /><br />Oh I don’t know! Having gone through this thread, I wonder if we are not all still little children at heart – Searching, asking, looking for love, craving attention. Trying to understand why the sky is blue and why watermelons are filled with seeds! Why are babies born with crooked legs? Why do mothers drown their little children? Why do fathers kill other fathers? <br /><br />Is there some reason that will explain it all – some empirical evidence that will help me sleep at night? Whatever the reason, you would think that if we could just answer “why?” we might be able to get our arms around the problem. Maybe we could alter things enough never to have to repeat the past mistakes. Maybe we could actually see the error of our ways and never go down that path again. Perhaps we could really be better!<br /><br />But then again, maybe the question of “why?” is just like the pealing of the church bell as it rings across the countryside. It echoes and reverberates off the hillsides, and the storefronts, and the wooden fences. The people hear it as they hurry on their way to work, or play, or whatever. It’s listened to by the little children as they jump rope and keep time to the peals of the clapper. The dog barks at the clanging as if to challenge the bell with a noise of its own. The question of “why?’ is like that ringing bell. Easily recognized, . . . but never answered. As for me, I choose God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Here is your past personality as described in the "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" Die Hard:<br /><br /> Rousseau "was a keen thinker, and was equipped with the weapons of the philosophical century and with an inspiring eloquence. To these qualities were added a pronounced egotism, self-seeking, and an arrogance that led to bitter antagonism against his revolutionary views and sensitive personality."<br /><br />Smart, well spoken, self-seeking, and egotistical with a sensitive personality. <br /><br />Everybody's best friend, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Tchershire - <br /><br />I decided to break the silence. <br /><br />Nice of you to join <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />How wonderful to think that God loves each one of us regardless of any of those things. Even though you don’t believe in Him, isn’t it incredible that He still believes in you and loves you? I realize that’s an incredible concept for you but you’d have an impossible time proving it is wrong! <br /><br />Let's scale it down a bit. The universe and life is God's greatest creation right? Are we to assume that after God rested on the 7th day, He has been idol ever since? Or has He gone on to create bigger and better things? Is the creation of life God's greastest accomplishment? Judging by everyone's estimations... I would think not.<br /><br />How many things have you created in your lifetime? Have you spent the rest of your life marvelling at it? Or have you moved and on continued to grow? I'm sure an all-knowing being with infinite capacities has better things to do than marvel at his creation for all eternity.<br /><br />To assume God loves all his creations is a bit naive? If God is capable of creating LOVE and HATE, why would you pressume that God simply LOVES by default? <br /><br />If God truly held the creation of life among his greatest accomplishments... why would he have created its antithesis in death? <br /><br />BTW, define 'love'?<br /><br />Whatever, I accomplish, I do so through Him because I can’t do it myself!<br /><br />By that logic, whenever you fail, you do so because of Him since you're incapable of living life. <br /><br />What a wonderful gift your God has provided you? The gift of life without the faculties to live it. What a crutch!<br /><br />But being human I bet you condemn them for something!<br /><br />Wrong. Like I said, we all end up in the same place. Six feet under being eaten by maggots. It all ends there.<br /><br />If the idea of a God empowers you to live a better life and make the world a more enjoyable place... that's a good thing. For everyone.<br /><br />But don't fool yourself into believing you'll be in the graces of God for all eternity upon your death. <br /><br />Given those terms, I doubt even you can adequately define “truth,” “freedom,” or “perfection!” I won’t ignore your questions but I would expect you to have “universal” answers, acceptable across a wide spectrum of mankind! I’m highly skeptical! <br /><br />Where's your defitions? It's those precepts which form the foundation of your arguments and yet I can't get a straight answer.<br /><br />There’s nothing easy about believing in Jesus Christ, you’ve already demonstrated that!!<br /><br />Of course it's easy. It's the herd mentality. Follow the herd without questioning it's principles... and when there's no logical explanations... you're told to ignore your faculties - the same faculity which is universally accepted as the defining characteristic which seperates man from animal - and rely on blind faith. <br /><br />why don’t you prove to me that a metaphysical being cannot or does not exist inside me? The very fact that you admit to a metaphysical possibility contradicts the impossibility of the concept! <br /><br />While it is true I won't dismiss the possibility of the existence of a metaphysical being... it does not contradict my argument in the slightest. <br /><br />To assume a metaphysical being exists 'inside' you assumes that the very same metaphysical form exists inside of everything in some kind of unidentifiable form or manner. Which implies this metaphysical being would be beyond human comprehension and understanding. And while accepting this possibility... I don't pretend to worship things I have absolutely no friggin' clue about.<br /><br />Yet, I'm not the one preaching about living life according to God's principles and putting word's in God's mouth by uttering nonsense like "God loves you."<br /><br />How many times have these laws been redefined because of new discoveries???? Does that make all of your decisions, based on those laws, wrong?????? <br /><br />Not necessarily. The rules by which I govern my behavior transcends any imposed human law. You'll be surprised to know my principles are pretty consistent with religious principles. But I CHOOSE to live by them by my own volition because that's who I am and that's what is consistent with my self interests. <br /><br />And coincidentally, I think I've lead a more moral life than most religious people by their very own principles. What does that mean?<br /><br />Does your life have an impact or an affect on others? <br /><br />I believe my existence has made the world a better place. <br /><br />Have you ever felt love or rage for another human being – if so, where is the empirical evidence that either of these two “states” actually exist? <br /><br />That, my friend, is a question for YOU to answer. You're the one saying 'God' loves me. <br /><br />Though if I had to answer, I think JJ Rousseau adequately defines 'love' to my liking (ie. logically). Essentially 'love' is a human need - much like food, shelter, etc - which stems from human insecurity and vulnerability. Though it is possible to live life without experiencing love... unlike food and water.<br /><br />You should take the time to read some of the great works by philosophers. You owe it to yourself.<br /><br />Trying to understand why the sky is blue<br /><br />There's actually a scientific explanation for that (ie. reflection of light).<br /><br />Having gone through this thread, I wonder if we are not all still little children at heart <br /><br />You don't have to be a child to have questions. And many of them have been answered in time... and more will be revealed in due time. But because they haven't all been revealed to us all at once... let's throw reason/logic/science out the window.<br /><br />Is there some reason that will explain it all – some empirical evidence that will help me sleep at night? <br /><br />You've been afforded the opportunity of life... and instead of living and appreciating everything what's been provided... you have to justify it or else you just can't sleep well. Somehow, without complete and full comprehension, you're life is meaningless.<br /><br />You can't appreciate what you have. You spend your lives believing there must be something better. And you spend your life living and behaving in a certain manner which you believe will help you ultimately attain that end.<br /><br />Thus you devalue life. Hence the hypocrisy of religion. And God is pissed <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Mardi - That same description can be applied to all the great thinkers <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />But it's no excuse to dismiss the validity of their thoughts. Remember, at one time, society snickered at Columbus when he suggested the world was round.<br /><br />And I've never enslaved nations of people, started crusades, beheaded others, fed people to the lions or otherwise killed others to legitimize my beliefs. Whose side are you on? <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /><br /> <br /> <small>[ February 25, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Die Hard ]</small> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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