fansince62 Posted October 6, 2001 Share Posted October 6, 2001 is it only me that finds the current self-serving clamoring by the press and liberals (with a sprinkling of figureheads from the right) for "preserving our freedoms" as palpably ludicrous? all of a sudden our new-found constitutionalists are strict constructionists. all the while (for the last 30 years): - its ok to lose your job and be sued for everything you own if you say something interpreted as sexist in the workplace - the very language you can use when discussing minority matters is highly charged and tightly policed - your very thoughts on every popular cause which demands a "sensitive" approach is subjected to a constant battery of PC editorials, press and broadcast - advocate a non-PC point-of-view and you are immmediately labeled and shunnned, sometimes to great economic detriment yes...the new-found love for freedom of the press, speech, etc., is less about the constitution and "rights" than it is about preserving limits on freedom that no one ever had the chance to vote for. the liberals, who incidently are too cowardly to step forward and defend this country (i.e., risk their own behinds), are fighting hard on this one. gee.....are any kennedy's signing up for service? are the barbra boxers of the world exhorting any their citizen californians to join the fight? has hillary for that matter? no. their interests are aligned elsewhere. when this is all done, perhaps it would be appropriate to see where they fall in terms of defending this country: is it just another intellectual enterprise for these people, or do they truly and deeply feel what America is all about and are they willing to accept that there are times to stand and be counted, times to belly up to the bar and have a drink with the others who are really doing the work and taking the risks. i can't stand these smug elitists who will lie at every turn to preserve their reach for power. there i feel better now. back to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin West Posted October 6, 2001 Share Posted October 6, 2001 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoR Posted October 6, 2001 Share Posted October 6, 2001 Écrasez l'infâme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted October 6, 2001 Share Posted October 6, 2001 Wait...which current President of ours was on the frontline of the Vietnam war. Oh yeah, not George W. How about that conservative Rush Limbaugh, he stepped forward to serve his country in Vietnam, didn't he? I didn't think so. Would you like me to name more? Stop making such ridiculous generalizations about "liberals." I know, you must be one of those bigot conservatives that blames homosexuals, among others for the attacks. You must be, because doesn;t Jerry Fat-A55 Falwell (sp?) represent every republican??? I don't like generalizations either my friend. Here's one more for ya. I'd bet you prefer that the Government tell us what we can and can't say. White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer "this is not a time for remarks like that: there never is" in response to comments made by self-proclaimed libertarian Bill Maher. Whether you found Mahers comments distasteful or not, do you really want our Government pressuring people not to say certain "negative" comments. If you are a conservative then I'd be shocked if this is what you want coming from the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin West Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Vor- Voltaire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 My father, a self-described liberal, fought like hell for his country in WW 2, losing half his right leg to a mortar in the process. If he were alive today and you had the guts to call him a coward to his face rather than spewing crap anonymously over the net, I have no doubt he could still kick your teeth down your throat with just 1.5 legs. [ by Fitzman on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Liberals are a problem IMHO because our value base has deteriorated dramitically and the Islam world does have reason to look at us as the great Satan from those aspects. That doesn't give them the right to atack us though. We give the extremists ammo when you push an agenda that say killing babies is a personal choice and the alternative lifestyle has equal footing as normal marriage. Then of course it was liberals who tried to tie Aid to those countries to allowing planned parenthood and homosexuality under the guise of human rights in as a package deal. Those supposed GOP Icons aren't the ones who was into flag burning and apologizing for being americans ------------------ Take a sip of the Marty KoolAid and Believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 gents....i'm heartened you have taken issue with my comments - that was the intent. as expected, you haven't answered the core assertion, but chosen to lob rhetorical hand grenades. again, to paraphrase the original thought: "there is something disingenuous about all the current posturing by the left in respect to the sanctity and universalist nature of our constitutional rights. these freedoms have been steadily eroded by the left in the name of political correctness - so it is not any profound love for freedom or rights that is at issue." it is about preserving restrictions on freedom viewed as buttresses against the vile and uneducated instincts of the crude masses - to be rather blunt. i find it ironic that the so-called intellectual elite are now scurrying for the hills, cobbling together preachy statements about the constitution and the need to remain steadfast againt the assault on freedom that can be "expected" in the aftermath of the wtc atacks. pls fellas, spare me the ad hominem arguments, relieve me of the "storm trooper" retorts, and answer the core question: what is at the base of the current blabbering over constitutional; rights? mind you, i have always tended to a strict constructionist point-of-view, believe in a natural rights foundation for girding our fundamental tenets, and, although not religious, understand that there is a logical requirement for validating core assertions about rights. i have been to the same elite schools many of you have attended, participated in the fight, and believe in this country and a better life for all of us. i also, however, am not willing to mask reality for what it is. the dissembling and intellectual dishonesty on the part of our "elite" has gone on long enough. there is a window, presently, during which one can express these counter-cultural thoughts without being consigned to the corner as non-progressive and "uncaring". the window will close soon enough as the threat passes and we return to the close-minded, intolerant posturing that has signified the left for the past 30 years. observe the fatuous battles being fought on our editorial pages as we speak to see where this is all headed. so, my fine friends, you will win in the end, but don't for a moment deceive yourselves into thinking your "noblesse oblige" is well received or even appreciated. this is about consistentcy, intellectual honesty, freedom of thought (sorry, i know this disturbs you to no end), and risk taking. otherwise, and not to stir the pot too much, blow it out your arses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Generalizations suck. All liberals are not in favor of abortion. All liberals are not in favor of endless handouts. All Republicans are not racists. All Republicans are not in favor of the rich over the poor. All Cowboy fans are not bandwagon-riding idiots ... as proven by our own members Joe and Dale. I'll bet there are gay Republicans and conservative Democrats and everything in between. There are enough reasons to separate, hate and attack your fellow man without bringing in party affiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 fitz....i regret that your father suffered in the name of freedom. i have a jewish background and many of my relatives perished in concentration camps. pls persue a different line of argument.....expressed with great respect for your father and my many friends who have died over the years while serving in the armed forces of the United States. kevin....who said anything about "essential liberty"? there is nothing in my posts about the exercise of fundamental rights. to the contrary, i have been pointing a finger - "j'accuse" - at the hypocrisy of those bleating their new-found love for the constitution: they don't practice it themselves. and yes, one poster is correct, not all liberals or conservatives fall under the same brush stroke. but that doesn't mean one shouldn't see what is going on for what it is. pangloss, for you voltaire affonciandos, may not be the best source of inspiration in times of danger. [ by al on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennesseeCarl Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Perhaps times of danger are exactly the times to get in touch with the beliefs that make America strong. I am liberal on many issues. I am conservative on many issues. Just as there is some good in the worst of us, there is bad in the best of us. This constant polarization - whether it's black/white, male/female, Republican/Democrat, rich/poor - doesn't serve us very well. America is a big enough house to hold more than one opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Wrong dude. Liberals need handouts to stay in office those who become dependant used to a free ride keep those giving it out in office. Pro Abortion is a liberal issue if you are against it you are conservative. There are conservative democrats just like there are liberal republicans too bad they just don't switch parties. What the butt pirates and carpet munchers do in their bedroom is their problem but don't use the office to force perversion on the masses ------------------ Take a sip of the Marty KoolAid and Believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyskinsfan Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Al, First of all- STOP OFFENDING THE U. S. of AMERICA VETERANS (Oh by the way, I am an American Legion member - go do your history on what they do and what they have done) http://www.legion.org For the record, count the Independents, Conservatives, Liberals, etc that served in the Armed Forces. Can't do it,can you? I didn't think so. See you are trying to fit square pegs in a round hole, I guess cause you are bored this week. Did you have a bad run-in somewhere? An abortion clinic, walked past a gay bar, saw a group with red banadanas? Strange thread indeed! [ by indyskinsfan on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 " ... those who become dependant used to a free ride keep those giving it out in office." - ND Any idea on what percentage of welfare recipients vote? I would bet it's pretty low. More than likely, the force that you would be concerned with would be the social workers who make a living from these programs AND are politically aware enough to vote. What about unemployment? That's a free handout, no? Should every worker who loses a job be out on the street? I am not a liberal. In fact, I have issues with a lot of that agenda. However, I also don't partake in the wide-spread liberal-bashing that is so popular today. It smacks of people's need to spew venom at another group without knowing them, which is pretty mindless in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 indy....this is rather getting to be fun. glad to hear you believe and practice participatory citizenship! not sure why you and your ilk keep trying to pigeon-hole me where I don't fit. this insistance on silencing me is most unbecoming!!! i'm not attacking veterns who might happen to harbor differing views from me. in fact, i'm not attacking anyone who holds a different view. i am exercising, oh what's it called, oh yea, my right of free expression to highlight what i see to be the hypocrisy of many weighing in on the constitutional freedoms arguments making the rounds in the press. my language may be a tad inflamatory - this is by intention. it provokes a response. hmmmmm......what's that sound I hear in the background? could it be a fishing line reeling in? actually, i'm quite liberal in some of my positions. however, as demonstrated by recent history, there are times to stay the eff out of the way while those who have to do the dirty work get it done. if this offends some sensibilites - too bad. no one is advocating over-throwing the republic and suspending all rights. just preemptory moves and some good fun noting the crass hypocrisy on the part of some of our most vocal social critics. you don't like it? then don't respond!!!! it's a free country after all! while we're at it.....and not wanting to open too big a can of worms, but since you raised the issue....just how representative are our armed forces? by race? by economic class? by religious faith? by educational background? save the blow-hard non-sense for someone who isn't involved. are there unversals in this? no, of course not. are there patterns? you betcha. well....i have had my fun. once again, respectfully request art close out the thread. [ by al on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyskinsfan Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 It's ok a**, you lumped all into one loaf, but left it on a Vets doorstep, Are you "really" an American, or a refugee coach potato. Your only consolation is "how you reel them in??? Are you ok or is being the "I am just doing this for laughs" bug hit like others at times. It's ok, I understand your plight, but on the day of the game, and a better OT "called REAL TIME", you seem to be stuck in another gear.. Do you wear a turbin and live near Tabul??? Oh, I did respond. Does it hurt? [ by indyskinsfan on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 brave....there is a lot to what you have to say. i would just aver that there are core issues that require airing no matter what the situation. look at this thread....without uttering a word in these matters I have been labeled a gay basher, an anti-libertarian, anti-veteran, etc., etc. this, to my mind, bespeaks more of the reactionary mindset that many of us have been conditioned to accept as polite behaviour than any kind of deep thinking. end of thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyskinsfan Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Funny, a diagreement with you becomes a label??? Also a person responds and you "suddenly" become the all-knowie. No end of responses to you. Whatever you are or as you say are labeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 indy......not sure where you're headed. not even sure we should be at loggerheads. no...in fact i'm in the armed forces, but wanted to keep this out of the picture and keep to the arguments. what i do or what i am doing right now isn't the issue or open for discussion. the fun part seemed the only response available given the reflexive bashing so many immediately chose to follow. i take these matters very seriously or i wouldn't have raised them. and no one has answered the original challenge: the hypocrisy of some of our loudest new-found constitutional advocates. post script....indy....i'm sure you're a great guy (you are a skin's fan, after all). no, i haven't labeled you. it would appear that I was the one accused of being a scourge. [ by al on October 07, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Al, the problem with your suggestion and why no one is really attacking the core of what you want, is because you act as if hypocrisy is only in the "Liberal" faction of this coutry and you just labeled massive amounts of people together without any knowledge of the people you talk about. Liberals may be more politically correct, but when have they and the press been against the freedom of speech. Find me one American journalist that all of a sudden has a new found love for freedom of press that they didn't have before Sept. 11. You charge every liberal as being anti-military, as anit-constitutional and that's simply absurd. NavyDave, your just as bad as Al because you distort views. I am pro-choice, but I don't advocate abortions as your Pro-Abortion claim suggests. I also love how "conservatives" are quick to forget any adultery commited by any "conservative" leader. If you agree with Falwells comments, then you are nothing but a bigot. And what Democrat Icons are in to burning flags??? I musta missed the Flag burning party at the Democratic Convention. (thats sarcasm if you can't tell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 hersh....at least you have adopted a mild mannered tone, however understated your contempt actually might be. don't paint me into a corner that doesn't exist. of course not all liberals fit the profile - some manage to resist their baser instincts! and yes there are "lesser lights" on the right. what exactly are you suggesting? that the clear impetus to control free speech in the workplace has been a figment of our imaqinations? that the cultural norms that pervade the written press and hollywood don't exist? interestingly, many of my liberal friends will argue that these controls are acceptable given past practices in the workplace that are not acceptable - turning the coin on its head. and who, exactly, is it that has been most strident in protecting these changes and advocating these cultural norms? please, it may be open to debate as to what the true or most democratic path to follow might be, (and not every control is unmerited), but don't insult anyone's intelligence by asserting that there hasn't been an aggressive effort to control free speech and behavior in this country - this is what PC has been all about from day one. but on to the matter at hand....the fight is on.....see ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 art....your abscence in these excahnges has been most conspicuous! you are right........fill in the blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Al, You are right about free speech in the workplace as well as being politically correct. I would be one of those liberals that would take the side of your friends on the workplace issue but I'm also a "liberal" that really can't stand PC to the degree it is now. My problem with your argument is that there are many conservatives who are doing exactly what you are against when they put down any American that disagrees with the kind of military responses that are being called for in response to the Sept. 11 attacks. "- advocate a non-PC point-of-view and you are immmediately labeled and shunnned, sometimes to great economic detriment" Advocating a non-military response in this day is definitely a minority opinion, but one that should be able to be freely expressed without comment from the White House or without threat of losing your job as what happened to some editorial writer in Texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 7, 2001 Author Share Posted October 7, 2001 hersh....walter cronkite made the same point tonight. not sure exactly where i fall on this. in the main, i agree, but i am also aware that taken too far this can have detrimental impacts on those risking their lives to defend this country. the public will does matter to those who are engaged in the fight. more directly, some of the lessons from viet nam (e.g., jane fonda) clearly demonstrate that there is a fine line between free speech and aiding/abetting the enemy (there are things she did that may never be publicly acknowledged). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe Posted October 7, 2001 Share Posted October 7, 2001 Interesting guys, I must admit. BTW, I think that being a true liberal means that you are necessarily anti-abortion as well as against capital punishment, although one would never know it by the platforms of the Republicans and Democrats. The important thing is to try to think for oneself. Stay away from knee-jerk liberalism as well as knee-jerk conservatism. I seem to be reading too much of both in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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