(merged) Creationism

I'm going to ask a question. For some of you it will be looked at as impossible; for others, factual. But regardless of the way you think of this issue please answer the question assuming that what I ask is true. I'm interested to see the thought process and reasoning here.

Question: If Creationism (i.e. the theory that God created the universe and everything in it) were proven true beyond any shadow of a doubt, should it be taught in the public school system and should Darwinian evolution be thrown out?

Again, please state your opinion based on the question as written. I don't care about "well, it won't happen," etc. Answer as if it were true right now.

Yes and no. You see, just like Darwinian theory, it CAN'T be proven without a shadow of a doubt (edit: sorry SF51, didn't see the part about "it won't happen"). If somehow it was found to be a matter of fact, then yes, it should be taught.

That said, I don't believe it should be taught with present day proof. There's nothing solid, no big piece of evidence that lends it enough credibility to change it's status from that of a religious fixture to something historical or scientific.

I believe that God created the basis for everything, and science took over from there. But that's just my personal opinion.

Originally posted by skinsfan51

I'm going to ask a question. For some of you it will be looked at as impossible; for others, factual. But regardless of the way you think of this issue please answer the question assuming that what I ask is true. I'm interested to see the thought process and reasoning here.

Question: If Creationism (i.e. the theory that God created the universe and everything in it) were proven true beyond any shadow of a doubt, should it be taught in the public school system and should Darwinian evolution be thrown out?

Again, please state your opinion based on the question as written. I don't care about "well, it won't happen," etc. Answer as if it were true right now.

Why does creationism and evolution need to be mutually exclusive terms.

Originally posted by skinsfan51

I'm going to ask a question. For some of you it will be looked at as impossible; for others, factual. But regardless of the way you think of this issue please answer the question assuming that what I ask is true. I'm interested to see the thought process and reasoning here.

Question: If Creationism (i.e. the theory that God created the universe and everything in it) were proven true beyond any shadow of a doubt, should it be taught in the public school system and should Darwinian evolution be thrown out?

Again, please state your opinion based on the question as written. I don't care about "well, it won't happen," etc. Answer as if it were true right now.

Wow.....here you go again. creationism will never be proven beyond the shadow of doubt......it takes the challenge out of the search for enlightenment. Good luck this time........

One last thing.....if creationism were proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, then there would most definitely be a logical explanation for all of the 'coincidences' that comprise the theory of evolution. In that case......then yes, creationism would be taught in the public school classroom. However, you will have better luck playing pick up sticks with your buttcheeks than you would trying to prove creationism.

As hard as it is to defend sf51, just be quiet. True, he has a bug up his ass about creationism vs. evolution (and public school vs. home school, and Christianity vs. everyone else, and separation of church and state, and America being a Christian country, etc., etc., etc.), but this is actually a meaningful thread. He's just trying to see the line of reasoning of those he disagrees with. There really isn't anything wrong with that.

Why must religion pushing americans drive a wedge between evolution and creationism.....ehem I'm sorry....I mean "intelligent design" And I'd be dishonest if I didn't point out the anti-god crowd are equally as eager to drive the same wedge.

Has anyone ever heard of the Cosmic Egg theory? It was thought up by a Catholic Preist to explain how the changes we see and God can co-exist. It's basically the big bang theory with God having created the thing that went BANG. It meshes with creationsim because God, being all knowing, doesn't have to create man in order to create man. God knows what the results of things will be down the road and thus could have intended to create man via events set in to motion long before a creature known as a human being even existed.

This debate needs to end. The evolutionary theory is great, but to rely on mathmatic impossibilities to explain life as we know it is insufficient. Both concepts should be given to students because it's the best we have to offer. Neither works without the other unless you take a huge leap of faith. You can't deny evolution completely because we have physical evidence, and you can't soley rely on chance because it leaves too many gaps.

Teach both, not as seperate possible theories, but as complementary. Clearly the term God has no place in a science lab so the "intelligent design" thing will have to do.

Originally posted by portisizzle

Why does creationism and evolution need to be mutually exclusive terms.

Because, unless you're a proponent of intraspecies evolution but speciation by divine fiat, the two ARE mutually exclusive.

As understood by basically everyone within and without the scientific community, creationism refers to the set of beliefs that preclude the possibility of speciation by adaptation and mutation.

Evolution, on the other hand, can still be compatible with "intelligent design" theory, but not "creationism."

SF51: It depends on whether creatioism is taught through the guise of a religion. Given that creationism, at least in the terms in which I think both of us consider it, would be taught in the context of a Judeo-Christian belief system. This runs contrary to our basic principle of separation of church and state. Thus, creationism should not be taught in schools.

Originally posted by Chopper Dave

As hard as it is to defend sf51, just be quiet. True, he has a bug up his ass about creationism vs. evolution (and public school vs. home school, and Christianity vs. everyone else, and separation of church and state, and America being a Christian country, etc., etc., etc.), but this is actually a meaningful thread. He's just trying to see the line of reasoning of those he disagrees with. There really isn't anything wrong with that.

I gave my opinion in this thread.... that is all that was necessary. You and I both remember the bloodbath that ensued before......and I won't make the mistake of taking part in the 'impossible' debate yet again. I wasted WAY TOO much time on it before. Either way....I answered his question, I am interested in what he has to say on this one, but I certainly will remain silent the rest of the way.

If creationism was proven,of course it should be taught in school,However at the same time I [despite being a christian] have no problem with Darwin's theory being taught as long as it is presented for what it is ....A THEORY...I have no problem with the search for truth.:2cents:

Originally posted by SkinsFan2456

I gave my opinion in this thread.... that is all that was necessary. You and I both remember the bloodbath that ensued before......and I won't make the mistake of taking part in the 'impossible' debate yet again. I wasted WAY TOO much time on it before. Either way....I answered his question, I am interested in what he has to say on this one, but I certainly will remain silent the rest of the way.

Fair enough.

iheart

Creationism CAN be taught in schools---private schools

Though I'd insist that it be kept out of science classrooms in any capacity. It simply has no place.

Does Osiris have a place in philosophy? Does Odin have a place in opthamology?

LOL. In reading the replies, I've learned one thing that I didn't think about before. Some people can't answer a simple question. Perhaps the content grates at them so much that they can't address it at face value. I don't know, but it's interesting.

Thanks to you guys how just gave a clear answer.

And let me add another thing here. My reasons for asking the question was not to start another creation/evolution debate. If it were I would have already jumped in on a few comments. I really just want to see the line of reasoning here.

I want to see if facts have the ability to override faith. Faith? Yep. Evolution is a faith-based belief system, too. It's believed without question without being proven completely. That's a form of faith.

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

iheart

Creationism CAN be taught in schools---private schools

Though I'd insist that it be kept out of science classrooms in any capacity. It simply has no place.

Does Osiris have a place in philosophy? Does Odin have a place in opthamology?

Good catch Ghost. For the sake of clarification, I meant public schools not parochial schools.

While Osiris may not have a place in philosophy, s/he does have a place in the teaching Egyptian history. So too do all of the Greek Gods have a place in English and/or Philosophy classes given Ovid's Metamorphoses. Religion (and religious concepts) where dispensed in "proper" context can profoudly enrich learning. Who defines "proper" in that context is another matter entirely.

In order to prove creationism, "God" (the man/ghost like version most people have) would have to make himself obviously known to everyone. That's the only way that it would be an absolute.

And of course, if a "God" stepped out of the heavens and made everyone aware of his real presense, then sure, it would have to be taught in school.

Creationism and evolution do NOT have to be separate.

It's in people's perception of "God" that creates this division.

If "God" is not a man/ghost like being, but an energy source, that doesn't have an interest in our everyday lives, then "God" will be explained through science and both theories will merge.

Originally posted by skinsfan51

And let me add another thing here. My reasons for asking the question was not to start another creation/evolution debate. If it were I would have already jumped in on a few comments. I really just want to see the line of reasoning here.

I want to see if facts have the ability to override faith. Faith? Yep. Evolution is a faith-based belief system, too. It's believed without question without being proven completely. That's a form of faith.

The God you speak of isn't proven AT ALL.

Evolution forms the basis of modern biological sciences.

Big difference.

Biologists don't track ancestry using mitochondrial DNA on "faith." They don't have prayer meetings over alleles, they study them.

Originally posted by iheartskins

Good catch Ghost. For the sake of clarification, I meant public schools not parochial schools.

While Osiris may not have a place in philosophy, s/he does have a place in the teaching Egyptian history. So too do all of the Greek Gods have a place in English and/or Philosophy classes given Ovid's Metamorphoses. Religion (and religious concepts) where dispensed in "proper" context can profoudly enrich learning. Who defines "proper" in that context is another matter entirely.

I was just being humorous. Did anyone catch the Odin and opthamology thing?

Anyways, yes, in the context of LEARNING all of human experience and thought is appropriate. I guess what I mean is that Osiris as the CENTERpiece of philosophy would be silly. When discussing the nature of reality, going on about what Osiris meant would be of little value.

When discussing rods and cones in the eye, it would be of similarly paltry value to discuss Odin's missing eye.

Originally posted by iheartskins

Good catch Ghost. For the sake of clarification, I meant public schools not parochial schools.

While Osiris may not have a place in philosophy, s/he does have a place in the teaching Egyptian history. So too do all of the Greek Gods have a place in English and/or Philosophy classes given Ovid's Metamorphoses. Religion (and religious concepts) where dispensed in "proper" context can profoudly enrich learning. Who defines "proper" in that context is another matter entirely.

IMO, I don't even have a problem, heck, I'd encourage for Public schools to have electives available that gave insight to many religions, it would help people to understand each other IMO.

I'm not saying lead anyone in prayer etc... I'm saying that the class would teach the histor of that religion and what those people believe.

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Biologists don't track ancestry using mitochondrial DNA on "faith." They don't have prayer meetings over alleles, they study them.

And they have HUGE gaps that they BELIEVE happend. They have a BELIEF. Terms that are also used in religion. In other words, there is no conclusive evidence, but they believe it and promote it anyway to their followers and everyone else. That's a religion. It is faith-based.

Originally posted by skinsfan51

And they have HUGE gaps that they BELIEVE happend. They have a BELIEF. Terms that are also used in religion. In other words, there is no conclusive evidence, but they believe it and promote it anyway to their followers and everyone else. That's a religion. It is faith-based.

But scientists don't just "leave it at that", they keep testing and experimenting until they have an answer that is proven by science. They don't say "take these pills, I have faith that they will work".

Originally posted by codeorama

IMO, I don't even have a problem, heck, I'd encourage for Public schools to have electives available that gave insight to many religions, it would help people to understand each other IMO.

I'm not saying lead anyone in prayer etc... I'm saying that the class would teach the histor of that religion and what those people believe.

I went to what I'd call a liberal-infested public magnet school in Philly. We still learned about religions and religious concepts.

I don't think most people are completely kept from these things, maybe in some really wacky districts.

Originally posted by skinsfan51

And they have HUGE gaps that they BELIEVE happend. They have a BELIEF. Terms that are also used in religion. In other words, there is no conclusive evidence, but they believe it and promote it anyway to their followers and everyone else. That's a religion. It is faith-based.

Science and specifically, evolutionary biology, are not religions. Western science is based on rationalism(rational inquiry,) something that is apparently elusive to you.

Get an encyclopedia, get a dictionary, get some history books and then get a philosophy book. They have them at libraries.

Sheesh.

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

I went to what I'd call a liberal-infested public magnet school in Philly. We still learned about religions and religious concepts.

I don't think most people are completely kept from these things, maybe in some really wacky districts.

I don't remember if we had a class like that or not when I was in HS. I had several in college though. I enjoyed it greatly.