Which qb to start a franchise?

[Dirk Diggler]

Colts fan,

Care to let me know how much guaranteed money (bonus $$$)both players are due since that's the only real money in the NFL? Thanks

[Coltsfan in VA]

Originally posted by Dirk Diggler

Colts fan,

Care to let me know how much guaranteed money (bonus $$$)both players are due since that's the only real money in the NFL? Thanks

if you start the franchise now you wouldn't have to pay manning his bonus because it would already have been paid. also, brady will probably ask for a bonus bigger than mannning's. if vick can get a 37 million dollar bonus brady will get a 40 million dollar bonus.

[Dirk Diggler]

Brady won't and that's my point. He's not going to look to break the bank because he's more of a team guy than Manning is. That's my opinion but we'll see.

Regardless, all we can deal with is the here and now and it's a bona fide fact that Manning is on the books for more guaranteed money than Brady. That's fact.

When you come out and say that he will ask for more you're basically indicting your own boy - Manning. You're telling me and everyone else that he'll ask for and get more $$$ (implying that based on his greater accomplishmets)

[theposse]

Originally posted by RedDawg36

LOL @ theposse. Manning's team was only favored in 3 and he won those 3. Does that excuse the other 5 chokes?

The only thing you can do for Manning is make excuses. BLAH BLAH BLAH. Heard it all before. Brady gets it done on Sunday. Manning chokes like he's got an apple stuck in his throat.

ROFL @ Tom Brady has "great" surround talent. What a joke. Manning has great surrounding talent. Brady has mediocre/good talent. The word you used "solid" defines it. Harrison and the rest of that crew are 5 times better than solid.

I fail to see why this is even an argument. Brady wipes the floor with Manning's head when it comes to clutch postseason QB play. We all know that. What some people fail to realize that aside from all that, Brady is a devastating QB. Did you see some of the sick throws he made against Pittsburgh - the best D in the country?

The best defense Manning faced all year was AT HOME against Baltimore. He did just as well as Brady, no better. So that's not saying much.

First of all - as I already indicated - I voted for Brady. But it's silly to act like one of these guys is a ton better than the other, and not listen to arguments in favor of each.

To your points - what great QB has been able to lead his team to victory despite inferior surrounding talent? Were the 80's 49ers not an awesome team all around? And did Montana not have the best WR in history and one of the best coaches ever to help him out? Were the 70's Steelers not amazing - in large part due to the Steel Curtain and Franco Harris and the great WRs? Was Elway unable to win the big one until he had Terrell Davis and a better D? So - yes it is relevant that the Colts have not even underachieved in the playoffs - they're 3-5 and that's how oddsmakers expected it to be based on how good their teams were overall. Do you not understand the definition of 'choke'?

As for surrounding talent - what are you talking about? Let's make a comparison:

Head Coach: Patriots

Offensive Coordinator: Patriots

Defensive Coordinator: Patriots

RB: even

WR1: Colts

other WRs: even (I think Pats but I'll call it even)

TEs: even

O-line: Colts

Defense: Patriots (not even close) - the Patriots averaged 16.3 points given up per game this year - which is better than even the Redskins despite the fact that the Pats had a much tougher schedule playing in the AFC and being the defending Super Bowl champs. The Colts gave up 21.9 points/game.

And while I too think that Brady is more clutch than Manning, let's not forget he has also:

- were it not for a lucky call - fumbled the ball against the Raiders in that last drive in the divisional game when the Patriots won their first Super Bowl

- While overall he had a great game, he threw a foolish interception in the end zone against the Panthers in the 4th quarter that kept them in the game in that Super Bowl

- in the Super Bowl against the Rams, Brady was 16 of 27 for 145 yards, and the Patriots first 17 points all came off turnovers (including one defensive TD). Brady's scoring drives in that game were 14 yards, 40 yards, and 53 yards - hardly the stuff of legends.

- John Kasay of the Panthers kicked the ball out-of-bounds on their kickoff with just over a minute left in that Super Bowl, meaning Brady only drove the Patriots 26 yards for Vinatieri's game-winning FG.

The point is that Brady has not been this perfect QB that is carrying a mediocre team to Super Bowl victories (and were it not for some odd plays - they may well have not won one or both of those Super Bowls, and this discussion would be very different). His team, frankly, led him to victory in the 1st one, and then he should get solid credit for leading them to the second one (but he did not do so alone).

I think people can reasonably think Brady or Manning is better than the other. But to treat it like it's a no-brainer really doesn't make sense to me. Giving Brady all the credit for the Patriots success is silly, as is giving Manning all the blame for the Colts' playoff losses. And saying Manning is better than Brady just based on stats is also not good enough.

[Dirk Diggler]

Should be interesting to see what happens to these poll results after Brady wins another title on Sunday

[authentic]

I agree , i would take Brady .. though Payton is a better pure quarterback... Brady is very smart and cheap as well . with that big contract Manning has- you won't be able to build a great defense around him, not to mention, you may not be able to keep many great players on the offensive side either.

[Could'a, Would'a, Should'a]

i think about 83 of the current 85 manning voters did a hit&run, god knows they couldnt defend their hero in his last game, Brady however is about to win his 3rd SB in 4 years, never lost a playoff game & i cant remember him even throwing an interception in the playoffs to date!

[Could'a, Would'a, Should'a]

seriously has he thrown a pick in any playoff game to date? if my memory serves correct

2001: Raiders, No

2001: Steelers, No

2001: Rams SB, No

2003: Titans, No

2003: Colts, No

2003, Panthers SB, No

2004: Colts, No

2004: Steelers, No

is that correct?

[Dirk Diggler]

He definitely threw a pick or 2 against the Panthers last season and I believe he threw one against the Colts last season in the AFC title game.

I'm sure you could got to www.nfl.com and look it up

[Dirk Diggler]

"That Tom Brady played three playoff games against teams with a combined 45-6 record . . . and finished with five TD passes and zero interceptions. According to my math, he's also 9-0 in playoff games, although he has never thrown for 49 touchdowns in a regular season. So there's still some work left. "

[chomerics]

Originally posted by 1-2-3 times a loser

seriously has he thrown a pick in any playoff game to date? if my memory serves correct

2001: Raiders, No

2001: Steelers, No

2001: Rams SB, No

2003: Titans, No

2003: Colts, No

2003, Panthers SB, No

2004: Colts, No

2004: Steelers, No

is that correct?

He's thrown three picks in the playoffs.

01' snow bowl vs raiders

03' vs indy

03 vs car in the SB.

With that being said, here are a list of his accomplishments. . .

3 SB rings

2 time SB MVP

9-0 playoff record

21 game win streak

34-4 over the past 2 seasons

22-1 vs teams over .500 the past two seasons )read that one again, I DID type it correct)

Youngest player ever to QB a SB win

Only player to have 2 walk off SB drives

one of only three QBs to have three SB rings

Record for longest post season win streak

I could go on and on, but I will end with this.

Brady is da' man.

Not a bad start to a career huh?

[chomerics]

One more thing to add, cut and copied from www.coldhardfootballfacts.com

This was also written before the latest SB victory.

POSTSEASON PERFORMANCES

Brady’s superiority over Manning is built upon the foundation of each player’s postseason performances. Quite simply, Manning, as we have long noted, is the Picasso of Choke Artists, the Betty Ford of Chokeaholics and the Al Choker of glib pigskin weathermen.

Brady, meanwhile, has already proven to be one of the great clutch performers in postseason history and has the Super Bowl rings, Super Bowl records and Super Bowl MVP awards to prove it.

For all of Manning’s brilliant regular-season fireworks in recent years, he has choked every year he’s been in the playoffs. That’s right. Every year. Don’t believe us? Come, take a drive down Manning’s postseason memory lane. But roll up the windows and lock the doors. It’s an ugly neighborhood.

1999 – In Manning’s second year in the league he led the Colts to a 13-3 record and an AFC East title while averaging 26.4 PPG in the regular season. In Indy’s first playoff game the Colts hosted wildcard-game winner Tennessee. The Indy defense played well, surrendering just 19 points to a high-powered offense that averaged 24.5 points per game. But Manning, at home in the dome, put just 16 points on the board, the team’s third lowest output of the season, while completing just 19 of 43 passes for 227 yards and zero touchdowns. Manning’s 60.9 passer rating was his lowest of the entire season. Result: Manning chokes. Colts lose, 19-16.

2000 – The Colts went 10-6 behind Manning’s 33 touchdown passes and an offense that averaged 26.8 PPG in the regular season. Indy went to Miami in the wildcard round and its defense played heroically, intercepting Jay Fiedler three times and surrendering just 23 points in a game decided in overtime. But Manning struggled and, in a game that lasted more than 70 minutes, was a non-factor. He completed barely 50 percent of his passes (17 for 32) for just 194 yards and a touchdown. The Colts generated 11 points off Fiedler’s interceptions but put a total of just 17 on the board, 10 points fewer than their regular-season average. It was Indy’s second lowest scoring output of the season. Result: Manning chokes. Colts lose, 23-17, in overtime.

2002 – The Colts went 10-6 and drew a gimme in the wildcard round: a 9-7 Jets team with a Swiss-cheese defense that surrendered 336 points that year (Indy boasted the better D, surrendering 313 points). Manning played the single worst statistical game of his entire career (14 for 31, 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs and a career-low 31.2 passer rating) and failed to put a single point on the board. Result: Manning chokes. Colts lose, 41-0.

2003 – The Colts went 12-4 in the regular season and scored 27.9 PPG. Manning kept it going in Indy’s first two playoff games, leading 41-10 and 38-31 victories over Denver and Kansas City. But Manning, facing foul weather and a good defense, returned to his historic postseason form in the AFC title game against New England. Indy’s D again played heroically, stifling the Patriots in the red zone and forcing them to settle for five field goals. But Manning tossed four interceptions and posted the third lowest passer rating of his entire career (35.5). Result: Manning chokes. Colts lose, 24-14.

You’ll notice a remarkable difference when you look at Brady’s postseason performances. Let’s take a stroll down a much more attractive memory lane. Roll down the windows and caress yourself in the fresh, breezy air of victory.

2001 – In Brady’s first playoff game, and just his 15th NFL start, he crafted one of the great postseason performances by a quarterback in NFL history. Facing a 13-3 fourth-quarter deficit and a blizzard of legendary proportions, Brady was virtually flawless in the fourth quarter and overtime, ran for one touchdown, led a game-tying drive near the end of regulation and went 8 for 8 on New England’s game-winning overtime drive. In some of the most severe conditions in franchise history, Brady completed 32 of 52 passes for 312 yards (with one first-half interception). Did we mention the blizzard? Brady critics are quick to decry the controversial “tuck rule” that overturned a potential late-game fumble by Brady. The call certainly gave New England hope, but it was not a decisive one. The Patriots still needed two scores to win and Brady was virtually flawless when the game counted most. We submit this as the greatest postseason debut by a quarterback in NFL history. Result: Brady gets it done in crunch time. Patriots win, 16-13.

Two weeks later, in just his 17th NFL start, Brady led the only walk-off scoring drive in Super Bowl history. After St. Louis forged a 17-17 tie, New England took over on its own 17 with 90 seconds to play and no timeouts. The football establishment expected New England’s inexperienced QB to take a knee and play for overtime. Instead, Brady completed 5 of 8 passes (one incompletion was an intentional spike) to put New England in range for a decisive field goal. It was the first walk-off, game-winning scoring drive in an NFL championship game since Johnny Unitas led the Baltimore Colts to an overtime victory in 1958. Brady became the youngest quarterback to win a Super Bowl and was named the game’s MVP. Result: Brady gets it done in crunch time. Patriots win, 20-17.

2003 – Brady led the New England offense to 11 points in the final three minutes of Super Bowl XXXVIII – throwing one touchdown to linebacker Mike Vrabel – and lifting the Patriots to another Super Bowl title. New England trailed, 22-21, midway through the fourth quarter. With the NFL title on the line, Brady completed 10 of 13 passes for 103 yards on New England’s final two drives. He ended the game passing for 354 yards and three scores and set a Super Bowl record with 32 completions. Brady became the youngest quarterback to win two Super Bowls and joined Starr, Bradshaw and Montana as the only players in NFL history to win multiple Super Bowl MVP awards. Result: Brady gets it done in crunch time. Patriots win, 32-29.

The chasm of Cold, Hard Football Facts separating each player’s postseason performances could not be more dramatic. Manning has appeared in four NFL postseasons, compiled a 2-4 record despite leading one of the most prolific offenses in football each season, choked at least once each postseason and posted a cumulative passer rating of 54.6 in his four playoff losses. Three times in four seasons in which he’s made the playoffs, Manning recorded his single worst statistical game of the year in the postseason. Two of the three worst statistical games of his career (31.2 and 35.5 passer ratings) came in the playoffs.

Brady’s postseason career includes six postseason starts, six victories, and four game-tying or game-winning drives at the end of regulation or overtime. Half his postseason games were played in conditions hardly conducive to great quarterbacking: One game was played in snow, another in a blizzard and another in the coldest game in franchise history (wind chills of -10). He was nearly flawless in a series of postseason games in which a single mistake would have cost his team victory.